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[endlessblaze]

Things like this push me to make a BADASS bot with HUGE THREADS and MANY EXPLOSIONS and none of that wimpy running away or sissy hacking... Though it usually ends very badly...

REAL MEN USE CENTRIUM HEAVY TREADS TO CARRY THE WORLD 'CUS THEY'RE SO TUFF AND CARRY LOTS OF STUFF

No really, I just had a semi-decent combat run. Scored 8700~ but it ended pretty treadfully when I couldn't find spares.

hehehe...that's pretty punny

[Supernovadx]

Real men run to -3 naked. Rock out with your cock out if ya know what I mean.

[Reiver]

Volley Modifiers:
  +3%/cell if range < 6
  +attacker utility bonuses
  +10% if attacker didn't move for the last 2 turns
  +3% of defender heat
  +10%/+30% for large/huge targets
  +15% for hack-linked targets
  +5% w/robot analysis data
  -1~15% if defender moved last turn, where faster = harder to hit
  -10% if attacker moved last turn
  -3% of attacker heat
  -10%/-30% for small/tiny targets
  -10% if target is flying
  -defender utility bonuses

Citation needed? I'm not seeing the bonus for hovering.

Yup, there isn't one--flight and hover aren't the same thing. I could consider giving hover half the bonus that flight has, but hover is pretty powerful as is, being so fast yet still able to carry as much as it can.

Wait, so this means that bobbing around in midair makes you more accurate than having a stable, recoil-resistant firing platform?

(Also: Hello! I figured I might as well pop in and watch, even if I can't play yet. )

[biomatter]

No, not quite Reiver - what it's saying is if you wait two turns without moving, your shots after that point will get a bonus 10% targeting. Essentially, you LOSE accuracy for moving, and a significant amount at that.

This creates an odd dynamic where if you are going to move mid-combat, you had better damn well be moving somewhere important (e.g. a doorway within 5~ distances), else you are better off just parking your ass wherever you were first spotted and volleying away.

[Reiver]

Oh, that makes more sense, I misread.

Does seem the sort of thing that treads and wheels might be able to help with, if any tweaking were needed there.

One more query - while I get the defender heat as a bonus (Easier to hit a target glowing on the IR scopes), why is there a penalty for you being hot?

[Kyzrati]

Hi Reiver!

Your comment does suggest that maybe the negative effects of recoil should be amplified if you're hovering/flying, though that might be a little harsh... One might think the reverse--making recoil less serious with legs etc--but I wouldn't want to make them too powerful.

Now that I think of it (I was writing this before your latest reply ), treads could really use a few more combat benefits since they're so slow and rely on combat. Maybe we can say little to no recoil with treads. I'll look at the numbers.

One more query - while I get the defender heat as a bonus (Easier to hit a target glowing on the IR scopes), why is there a penalty for you being hot?

High heat reduces the efficiency of all your systems. It further emphasizes the importance of keeping your heat under control--its integration with the hit chance mechanics is its only persistent effect, while all the others are chance based.

[Reiver]

Hiya! When I realised that I didn't need to own the game to register (Still on the wishlist, honest!), I figured I should grab my usual nick before someone else did and cause chaos forever more. 

As for the recoil mitigation, I like that - means if you're using treads, you're trading speed in return for enhanced ability for sustained combat, which is handy given you won't be running anywhere!

That said, if you were going to make ground movement recoil-adjusted, I'd recommend it being both wheels and treads - thematically, they're both as solid on the ground, the difference is speed and weight capacity. No shortage of wheeled gun platforms in the world, afterall! It also leaves you with the three categories of ground propulsion being more distinct: Legs are the fastest, Treads are the strongest, and so at least Wheels are faster-while-keeping-recoil... else I'd worry where they find their niche, even if it's only ever as the poor-mans-treads.

As an aside, I'd also suggest that wheels stack with treads in terms of granting carrying capacity (with the slowest of the two still determining actual speed), but appreciate that it might complicate matters. I only mention it because I've a decades-long love affair with halftrack designs, that's all.

[Kyzrati]

Sorry, but no halftracks . Sure it makes logical sense, though you can only have one type of propulsion active at a time. I think it's important to have rules that are applied across the board without exceptions. This keeps the mechanics easy to follow.

The benefit of wheels is not in their stats at all--they have no particular advantage, but are easy to acquire. As such I don't feel they need any kind of boost.

Treads on the other hand do need some extra benefits seeing as how difficult it can be to use play styles that rely on them. (Yes this added difficulty is intentional, but it's still slightly on the insanely hard side right now .) I have two modifications planned so far:

• Recoil reduction. This will be a -X to the recoil of all weapons while any treads are active, essentially like having a free Recoil Nullifier.
• Immunity to knockback from impact damage. This is barely a benefit, since you may even prefer to be knocked back when a Brawler wails on you so it has to advance to continue attacking. It would benefit any treaded Cogmind engaging in melee combat with a Brawler, though.

Any other suggestions from those of you who've been using treads? (Or would like to?)

[biomatter]

I don't know how I feel about innate bonuses for different movement parts. I was about to say I don't like any of them (that includes flight's 10% nat.dodge), but I can't think of a good balance change if that were to be removed. Increasing the strength and width of the movespeed dodge bonus? I dunno.

But then I gave it another three seconds and realized that since I can't think of a way to remove the flight bonus fairly, adding a bonus to the opposite end of the scale seems like a great idea.

Also on topic re: wheels main detractor is the fragility compared to legs. Wheels are faster than legs, Reiver, but they support less and have less integrity. I like legs because they aren't SO rare, have a piddling speed, and still manage to support a fair amount with an incredibly low overweight-penalty. Personally, wheels and hover units are my least favorite forms of movement, but that doesn't mean I don't use them or see their strengths

[Reiver]

Oh, well, fair enough then For some reason I'd gotten legs and wheels mixed up in speed, which is pretty silly when I think about it.

The idea of recoil reduction on treads does make sense, too. Big, heavy, and certainly no shortage of contact with the ground! To reiterate: The bonus doesn't stack, it's just the bonus for using treads at all, yes? And on second thought, maybe you don't want recoil reduction on wheels anyway. The bad guys have wheels, too. Some days it's more useful to deny your foe a bonus than it is to get one yourself, and all that... ;-)

I like it, anyway. If you're going to balance in both directions, might as well balance in both directions!

A small sidenote: I know you intentionally want 'shoot your way through the game' to be Hard Mode, but when you're selling your game based on the Cool Effects Of Explosions, you might want to make sure a rookie who excitedly installs all those machineguns (it's how you play the game, right? The trailer showed it off!) and keeps installing machineguns is able to do at least reasonably well with the combat-first approach, even if the difficulty ramps up 'more quickly' in the later few levels - so they get to actually play the game while learning how to better a) fight, and b) realise that maybe there are better methods than fighting.

Hard mode should totally be 'army of robots', anyway. It's almost certain to be the most hilarious. ;-)

[Kyzrati]

I don't know how I feel about innate bonuses for different movement parts. I was about to say I don't like any of them (that includes flight's 10% nat.dodge), but I can't think of a good balance change if that were to be removed.

But then I gave it another three seconds and realized that since I can't think of a way to remove the flight bonus fairly, adding a bonus to the opposite end of the scale seems like a great idea.

And I thought biomatter would be all for that bonus and this change from the beginning

Increasing the strength and width of the movespeed dodge bonus? I dunno.

I think that would make dodging via flight way too effective. Not on its own, necessarily, but once you combine it with parts like a Cloaking Device and a good set of Maneuvering Thrusters...

To reiterate: The bonus doesn't stack, it's just the bonus for using treads at all, yes? And on second thought, maybe you don't want recoil reduction on wheels anyway. The bad guys have wheels, too. Some days it's more useful to deny your foe a bonus than it is to get one yourself, and all that... ;-)

Right, the idea is if you are using any treads at all there is a simple one-off -X modifier, no stacking. (Probably to be -10.) Tactically speaking, this means a flying Cogmind with ballistic cannons could attach one tread among its flight units, and when it's time to make a stand drop to the ground, activate its one tread to overcome the recoil effect, and become a stationary gun platform with a better chance to hit

Actually, I don't believe there are any hostile robots that are both wheeled and use multiple heavy weapons with recoil. Wheels are generally found on non-combat robots (and even most combat robots, until later in the game, are only equipped with a single weapon, in which case recoil has no negative effect).

And it interesting balancing a game where the enemy is capable of doing all the same things you are, so yeah we have to be careful with where bonuses are applied and all.

A small sidenote: I know you intentionally want 'shoot your way through the game' to be Hard Mode, but when you're selling your game based on the Cool Effects Of Explosions, you might want to make sure a rookie who excitedly installs all those machineguns (it's how you play the game, right? The trailer showed it off!) and keeps installing machineguns is able to do at least reasonably well with the combat-first approach, even if the difficulty ramps up 'more quickly' in the later few levels - so they get to actually play the game while learning how to better a) fight, and b) realise that maybe there are better methods than fighting.

This is actually the case right now. You can focus nearly entirely on weapon slots and do quite well for the first half of the game; it's the latter half where that approach becomes much more difficult.

What's keeping players from progressing are other things like figuring out strategies for dealing with different types of enemies, a standard learning curve for any roguelike (though this one happens to be quite different from other roguelikes, making it somewhat more difficult due to the lack of familiarity--tactics that work in other roguelikes don't work in Cogmind).

In fact, in my opinion the best approach to the early game is actually to be very confrontational and destroy hostiles before they can form groups and swarm you. What I've noticed is that many beginners do the exact opposite! They have trouble facing a couple robots (due to unfamiliarity with the mechanics and strategy), start to flee, then encounter more enemies and are easily overwhelmed... it snowballs into an increasingly difficult situation. They either get really good at fleeing, and start reaching further areas, or switch to an aggressive enough strategy that they can overcome hostile groups and proceed that way.

Hard mode should totally be 'army of robots', anyway. It's almost certain to be the most hilarious. ;-)

This is totally the case--both methods are fun, but the sheer destruction and chaos that results from big battles often leads to some crazy results.

[Sylverone]

I'm still a beginner playing a game here and there, but in the very beginning I've been going with armored wheels so far when i can get them. Same integrity and better support and movement than the aluminum legs also available (although the legs are more common, of course).

EDIT: I waz gettin' all embarrassed since I haven't tried the faster legs very much at all (except in a game where I found some good flyers), so here we go (linked to fullsize):

I have to say, being faster than scouts is handy. 

[Happylisk]

This is a supplement to somethings I had said on the SA forums re: treads.

I am now not so sure that treads are in dire need of any buffs.  Last night I got to Access, -3 on a pure combat run and used treads for the latter half of the run.  I think treads are not a great idea in the early game, since you're still scrambling to get your build and can't hold your own in sustained firefights.  However, once you hit storage/factory and get some real weapons you can stand and fight; as such, the need to run goes down.  A tread reliant build can get away with only 2 propulsion slots, freeing more slots up for utilities and weapons.  And since combat in this game is about 95% ranged, the slow movement isn't really a huge deal.  Sure, once you're in a fight you're committed to that fight - but the same is more or less true with legs. 

So I'm pretty sure I jumped the gun in saying treads really need a buff relative to the other propulsion systems.  However, since combat is inherently harder than stealth/speed runs, I wouldn't complain if treads were buffed all the same

[Kyzrati]

Ah yes, and that is why we don't give as much weight to opinions on balance from new players

It's impressive what you can do with fewer treads since they can support so much. And some better treads found towards the end of the game are even as resilient as high-level armor. Is that you who's just made a place for yourself near the top of the high scores list? (Someone just reached -3 with a heavy combat build.)

You've convinced me to perhaps go back to trying treads for the latter part of my seed run attempt this week

All that said, I may still want to improve tread integrity a bit, and maybe even legs a tiny bit, too; the reason being that there will be new changes coming that put more pressure on slow builds: Traps. If you're slow and don't have a way to detect and/or disarm traps (there will be many ways to do each), you're almost sure to trigger them. The chance with treads is 100%. I think an integrity boost will be nice to both partially counteract that disadvantage and make them a slightly more reliable part of a combat build--one less thing you have to worry about while juggling all those weapons and utilities.

[Happylisk]

Yep, that big ole score was from me!  The "i" key on my laptop at home is busted so I went with HappyCog instead of Lisk

I had the feeling traps would be worse against legs and treads than flying units.  I do hope there will be grav-traps that only effect fliers.  But yeah, increasing tread integrity will hasten the day someone wins with a pure blaster build.   

[Kyzrati]

There will be traps that are more effective against fliers, yep. Will probably lead to the occasional "bye guys! vroom vroom vrooooooooo--WTF?!" moments.

Still haven't implemented everything, though, as progress this week was impeded by a family visit :/. Next week will see lots of trap work.

[Reiver]

... wind tunnels.

You've gotta implement wind tunnels.