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Author Topic: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips  (Read 44403 times)

GTD-Carthage

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Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« on: May 22, 2015, 07:17:21 AM »

Hello all! This is my first post here. I've been an occasional lurker of Cogmind for some time now and, glad to see the game is now available for public access, took the opportunity to take a look at the early build of the game. I must say, the game is very impressive with a fair good bit of graphics. (I enjoy both the tileset and ASCII look but I must say the particles are easiest to appreciate if it's all in ASCII!)

I have no idea where to put this down as it isn't a bug nor is it an idea.

I've been through several games now with my furthest at least three floors in. (Those katana-wielding Rogues tore me a new one...)

After some time of playing and adopting specific strategies, the issue I'm actually going to discuss here has become less of a problem but at the same time, I feel it limits some gameplay aspects of the game I'll also discuss here...

Weapon accuracy. Everyone shoots like, really badly. Not that it's a bad thing when it's enemy bots on you.

A large number of combat scenarios (outside of funneling the bad bots into tight spaces) most definitely tear my entire inventory of equipment apart quicker than I can take at least half of them down. The flying little Pests are definitely... pests.

There are frequent times in the game where robotic grunts are at least less than five tiles away but are still only at 50% hit chance. (this is understandable of course for things that can fly and move fast - like Pests) I'd figure an extremely low shooting accuracy at certain ranges is acceptable but when a target is just on the opposite side of the street, I'd assume a near-guaranteed hit - it especially becomes a huge curiosity when hostile bots are funneled down 1-tile corridors but still have more or less 50% hit chance despite enfiladed fire.

Definitely, I'm rather weak on discussing this as I presume accuracy, a major variable in combat, was probably among the first balancing acts polished up in the game and that it plays as it was intended now. And that a number of other factors (like moving targets) probably account for lower accuracy rates.

In so far, the accuracy of hostile bots are satisfactory - they hit hard most especially if you stand in the wrong spots. However, unless you were in tactically advantageous terrain such as a tight corridor or a doorway (of lesser defensive value though...), your own accuracy does little good up until you have at least three or more guns to guarantee one of them will hopefully hit your target (all the while those bots will tear your guns away...). Low accuracy on longer engagement ranges is also actually quite fine, especially when enemies are practically at the border of your sensor range.

Any thoughts? I personally think weapon hit chances are fine - just need to be a bit kinder when you expect them to be.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 07:20:36 AM by GTD-Carthage »
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Kyzrati

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2015, 08:17:34 AM »

Hello! And what a great title... I saw that pop into my inbox and was like "what?! weird spam already?" ;)

Then I read the contents and realized the title is perfect ;D.

This is a very important issue that requires an in-depth official response so you can all see what's up with this mechanic:

Part of the problem is a lack of immediate transparency in terms of the hit chance value.

It is a huge number of factors all rolled into one single value. You can know all these factors, though--they are both explained in detail in the manual, and you can use the combat log for a breakdown during firefights. (That said, the breakdown uses the old method from the 7DRL and is pretty dense, to be honest. I've wanted to revamp that and make it much more useful.)

For convenience I've copied the current factors here:

* Base hit chance before any modification is 60%.

Volley Modifiers:
  +3%/cell if range < 6
  +2%/attacker tread slot
  +attacker utility bonuses
  +10% if attacker didn't move for the last 2 actions
  +3% of defender heat (if heat positive)
  +10%/+30% for large/huge targets
  +10% if defender immobile
  +5% w/robot analysis data
  -1~15% if defender moved last action, where faster = harder to hit
  -10% if attacker moved last action (ignored in melee combat)
  -3% of attacker heat (if heat positive)
  -10%/-30% for small/tiny targets
  -10%/-5% if target is flying/hovering (and not overweight or in stasis)
  -20% for each robot obstructing line of fire
  -5% against Cogmind by robots for which have analysis data
  -defender utility bonuses

Weapon-specific Modifiers:
  +utility bonuses
  -recoil (from other weapons)
  -10% while system corrupted (corruption% chance/shot)

In summary, the idea is hit chance is a lot more than just "I'm an awesome robot dammit I should be able to hit anything I want." The player must realize all the different factors at play and use them to your advantage (or realize when you're at a disadvantage because of them!).

As part of that subgame, many of Cogmind's utilities allow you to manipulate one or more of these factors in your favor!

So that's how it should be viewed from a realism standpoint. Now from a game design perspective, there are other explanations:

The primary one is game flow.

The dynamics would be completely different if we had higher hit chances across the board, resulting in a very different feel to the whole game. At the map design level you'd end up having to fight a lot more enemies (thereby leaving fewer opportunities for effective stealth), or enemies that would have to be much more resilient to compensate. At a single shot level we'd also lose a lot of the suspense created by misses!

I understand that it may feel annoying when you're right next to a robot and and can't always hit it, but while being at close range offers a really nice boost to your accuracy, it can't be perfectly effective because the ultimate strategy would then become to just rush up and nail everything in the face. As is I think the values provide a good balance between "do I spend a few turns closing on the enemy to get a better shot, or do I hold out at a distance and take my chances based on my current loadout and abilities?"

Then there are all those other factors that feed into the system. If everyone could get to the mid-game more easily I might not need to say this, but you'll find that later on, if you really want to, you can build yourself to easily get over 90% hit chances against almost everything, regardless of distance or speed! Targeting computers stack, and wait until you start getting the better ones ;). (There are many other approaches, too, as you can imagine from all the parts. I've built Cogminds that could one-shot almost everything I met.)

So I think the system as it is works well with the idea that you can tweak whatever you want to improve that aspect of yourself, but that keeps you from improving in other areas. In short, you're not really good at anything--it's what you decide to use that determines how effective you are in a given situation.

The main drawback to this system is more of a meta issue, as it's easy to misunderstand it, especially at the beginning.

What do you all think?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 10:16:29 PM by Kyzrati »
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GTD-Carthage

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2015, 08:48:49 AM »

After seeing 80% shot chance on three weapons on a few guys, I suddenly feel like my sentiments are moot. :P There's definitely a huge formula influencing accuracy given that explanation and I do agree there's a huge amount of tension surrounding fights thus far - position is integral to survival and, in the end, it's the player's fault for letting himself get surrounded by Defenders shooting from all directions. ;) There's a lot of fascinating close encounters where terrain advantage manages to let you win against a whole bot squad coming along their path.

Perhaps the biggest discovery (noticeable the longer you play...) would definitely be recent movement applying itself against accuracy. Knowing that influences my playstyle a bit.

At this point, I think accuracy is in a solid good place - experience with Pests on the first non-tutorial floor definitely leaves the idea you'll never shoot particularly well and it felt like a foreboding experience for future encounters. (That Rogue plz)
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Kyzrati

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2015, 11:45:35 AM »

Thank you very much for the prompt, though! Now I have a good place to point whenever someone asks about this.

Even just this evening I was chatting with someone who said they were encountering "stormtrooper syndrome," and I said hm, that sounds awfully familiar... and pointed him to this thread. He came back after a short while with the following comment :)

"Well, that's going to influence my play style..."
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biomatter

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2015, 05:58:55 PM »

No kidding! After I read all that, I went to check the manual - and sure enough, it's there. I really, really need to read that thing... <_<;
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Kasaris

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2015, 08:41:21 AM »

The title  is perfect ahah

It is right that in the beginning, you feel like a drunken stormtrooper...

But the key is to read the entire manual, and everything become much clearer, particularly the modifiers applying to hit chance. What Kyzrati wrote at the beginning of the topic is exactly in the manual !
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Warmist

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2015, 04:05:26 AM »

I found that explosive weapons help a bit with this :D
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biomatter

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2015, 04:14:14 AM »

Explosive weapons are great... expect for that fact that you get negative salvage. Oh, sure, you've destroyed your target - but you aren't replacing what they destroyed on you! Be wary: every sword in this game is triple-edged ;)
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Kyzrati

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2015, 07:17:12 AM »

Be wary: every sword in this game is triple-edged ;)
As a designer I take this as the utmost praise!

It does, however, steepen the learning curve for less observant players since there are so many situations under which you're digging your own grave...
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biomatter

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2015, 07:35:12 AM »

It absolutely is! As much as I rant and rave about how everything is shit, I am amazed at how all the (metaphorical) parts fit together. The balance out of the box is insanely on point. I haven't run into an item yet that's made me say 'oh that's complete junk who'd use that?' Everything has options over everything else and that's great. You are right about that making things incredibly hard though, haha. Just seconds ago I was watching a record of one of my more frustrating 5-minute fails and towards the end I was like "no, why are you moving there? go back over there and shoot some more... no, what the hell, what are you doing CHRIST and now you're killing yourself? YOU HAVE SO MUCH CORE LIFE JUST RUN." I wish I could stream this game, haha. I swear I'd be entertaining... mostly by swearing...
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Kyzrati

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2015, 07:54:35 AM »

I know you intended it as such :). And there's so much to take into account that mistakes everywhere along the way are inevitable--and it's not always so straightforward as to which was the worst mistake since there are so many moving parts. For now I'm counting on that to keep you guys busy before I finally get to releasing some more stuff ;).

The data you and others collect for a wiki will no doubt be a great help to those who really need it. I plan to set that up fairly soon. But first, I'm trying to make today the first day since launch that I go to sleep before 3-4 AM!

And I'd watch that stream ;D
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Draco18s

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2015, 01:07:01 PM »

I almost feel that the cogmind needs a slight boost to hit chance intrinsically, compared to other bots (e.g. 5%).  The facility has numbers on you, they can afford to miss more often.

I've lost track of the number of fights I've had sprung on me where I couldn't run away (no where to run to as there were hostiles on all sides) and couldn't fight (because 1 bot with 3 guns is no match for 4 bots with 2 guns each).  Usually these fights end with me...
1) trying to run and having every part blown off piece by piece until I die.
2) trying to fight, lose all my guns, proceed to 1.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2015, 09:42:14 PM »

I would recommend thinking back to earlier decisions and learning how to not end up in those situations in the first place. As you've discovered, being surrounded is a terrible position to be in, for sure. It's one of the top things you want to avoid, though it is almost always avoidable. Even as a slow combat build I'm very rarely surrounded. It does happen in some less predictable circumstances, like when they use a hidden door to flank you, but dealing with those unexpected events is part of the challenge :)

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a small base accuracy bonus, like you say, if anything to reduce discouragement among beginners. We'll see.
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Draco18s

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2015, 05:58:57 PM »

Oh, very true.  And its something I'm well aware of, even if I don't know how to avoid those situations yet.  I've been trying the light-weight fast-flyer strategy lately, but I think I might have to reorganize for a slow tank build; I'm a fan of stealth games where getting into a fire-fight isn't a straight loss.

Oh and yeah, discouragement is a huge problem for me right now.  I can manage one game a day just to keep from feeling burned with frustration.  I've had better runs in classic roguelikes...
(Do TOME or ADOM count as "classic roguelikes"? Or do I have to go older, like DrAngband?*)

*That's Dr(agon)-Angband, not Doctor.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 06:00:52 PM by Draco18s »
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Adraius

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2015, 10:46:22 PM »

Oh and yeah, discouragement is a huge problem for me right now.  I can manage one game a day just to keep from feeling burned with frustration.  I've had better runs in classic roguelikes...
Ugh.  I feel you.  This is my first roguelike so I'm unjaded and don't have any others to compare against, but I had really hoped to get off to a good start in the tournament after back-to-back great runs, and I'm like five or six runs in now and haven't even gotten to the Factory in any of them, let along Research. >.< That killed off a lot of my first-day enthusiasm lol.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2015, 09:20:52 AM »

Plenty of time yet, Adraius, though I admit I'm surprised you haven't already crushed your way into Research.

Trying too hard, perhaps? :P (I honestly do better when I'm more relaxed and not trying to overthink everything.)

Oh and yeah, discouragement is a huge problem for me right now.  I can manage one game a day just to keep from feeling burned with frustration.  I've had better runs in classic roguelikes...
Do TOME or ADOM count as "classic roguelikes"?
Ha, ADOM's pretty much the definition of classic. I wouldn't consider TOME a classic if you're referring to ToME4, but if you mean the earlier/originals, then that's a different story.

An important question is how long did it take you to effectively get further in those games?

With Cogmind I wanted to do two things:
1. Squeeze a huge amount of content into "only" ten depths.
2. Ensure that the early game is fun and interesting even for experienced players. The problem with epic roguelikes like ADOM is that they have pretty boring starts for experts. Some other roguelikes apparently have the opposite problem, like DCSS being a more boring end game once you really know what you're doing--or so I've heard--but with Cogmind I really want it to be an enjoyable game throughout.

When combined, these two factors tend to make the game a little harder on beginners, and this can cause frustration among certain types of players, though according to feedback so far the average Cogmind player seems to be enjoying the early game nonetheless.
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zxc

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2015, 09:39:20 AM »

You heard rightly about DCSS. I have something like a 90% winrate once I reach lair. It doesn't always suddenly get easy, but rather a lot of the RNG settles down and you have enough consumables by that point to avoid just about all deaths. For streaking, the most critical floors are the first three or four, where in certain situations death can be completely unavoidable, or death will result after the absolute slightest mistake.
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Draco18s

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2015, 04:08:52 PM »

Oh and yeah, discouragement is a huge problem for me right now.  I can manage one game a day just to keep from feeling burned with frustration.  I've had better runs in classic roguelikes...
Do TOME or ADOM count as "classic roguelikes"?
Ha, ADOM's pretty much the definition of classic. I wouldn't consider TOME a classic if you're referring to ToME4, but if you mean the earlier/originals, then that's a different story.

An important question is how long did it take you to effectively get further in those games?

I think it was ToME3.  Whatever it was when it was still "Tales of Middle Earth."
As for how long...I am not sure anymore.  To be fair, I was still shit at ADOM, but I did have runs that lasted long enough to bother saving and got runs like that often enough to "suffer" through the occasional tragic short end.

Cogmind feels way harsher in some respects.  I know I had a run where I came up the stairs to a new level and even before I moved there were already two hostile robots only 8 or so tiles away.  That run ended about a minute later.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2015, 06:31:27 PM »

I know I had a run where I came up the stairs to a new level and even before I moved there were already two hostile robots only 8 or so tiles away.  That run ended about a minute later.
That's only possible in the Mines (which are avoidable)--hostile robots aren't allowed to spawn near you in other maps (there will be a chance in some future maps, too). Two hostiles shouldn't be a problem, though--always try to stay in a given map until you're prepared for the next, including carrying what spare parts you think you need.
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Draco18s

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2015, 07:02:18 PM »

I know I had a run where I came up the stairs to a new level and even before I moved there were already two hostile robots only 8 or so tiles away.  That run ended about a minute later.
That's only possible in the Mines (which are avoidable)--hostile robots aren't allowed to spawn near you in other maps (there will be a chance in some future maps, too). Two hostiles shouldn't be a problem, though--always try to stay in a given map until you're prepared for the next, including carrying what spare parts you think you need.

It wasn't the mines, I went there in my run today (which spawned, swear to god, 20+ derelicts.  I only made it out because the exit was one room away in the other direction).  It was a main level hallway and I think they were mercenaries.  The problem was that I'd had to bail from the prior level due to getting beat up pretty bad.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2015, 07:46:12 PM »

True, having to flee to a new map is sometimes inevitable.

If they were spawned there within sight of you immediately when you enter then that would be a bug--they should not have LOS on your entry position, or even be allowed to spawn around corners that are too close. I've never seen that happen before; however, if you happen to be really slow and move around a bit, a nearby patrol could theoretically already be headed in your direction (by chance) and happen to show up pretty quickly.
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Draco18s

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2015, 08:55:49 PM »

If they were spawned there within sight of you immediately when you enter then that would be a bug--they should not have LOS on your entry position, or even be allowed to spawn around corners that are too close.

I've only seen it happen once, if I see it again, I'll be sure to screen shot it.
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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2015, 10:21:53 PM »

That and (more importantly) the world seed, found in your score record at the end of the game, would enable me to recreate and analyze the same situation. alexthescribe on /r/Cogmind mentioned seeing this before as well.
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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2018, 03:03:15 PM »

Question about the hit chance calculation, while there's a relevant thread:  do the "+10% if attacker didn't move for the last 2 actions" style adjustments mean literal actions (vs turns)?  And does a whole volley count as one action, or each shot in the volley?

Depending on the above, if one just moved and needs to hit something that turn (fleeing informer at the edge of range e.g.) and has the time left in the turn, it could be worth dropping an item for a 10% aim boost to a volley one is about to fire, I think.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 05:21:53 PM by Trione »
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Kyzrati

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Re: Stormtrooper Marksman Academy Trajectory Chips
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2018, 06:40:50 PM »

Literal actions (it would say turns if it was turnwise). And firing is a single action, regardless of weapon count.

Although dropping an item is not always a great idea under a lot of circumstances (e.g. there might be something already under you, you could lose it to a Recycler, and in the end you'll use up 1.5 turns since you'll have to pick it back up again later...), some people will wait an extra turn before starting an engagement to get the bonus. I'll often do this, but whether or not that's really advantageous can also depend on other factors affecting your aim at the time, and what/how many weapons you have.
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