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[Decker]

The balance of the game is significantly different with the non-removable processors.

I played two full games so far. I came very close to winning in my last game (the exit was in sight). I got stripped due to alert level 5, and unknowingly fighting near a garrison. Still, I got my best score thus far (33370).

I entered Research in great shape. I reset the alert several times in -4 (just before Research), and sailed through Research without raising the alert much (I was trying to secure a win at this point). What screwed me was losing my experimental terrain processor in -2 due to a direct hit. I still found the exit, but then I couldn't map Access fast enough. I eventually found another terrain processor in Access, but it was too late.

I aggressively hunted hackware throughout the game, and found some, but it suffered the same fate as my terrain processor. Even with their low coverage, it's still only a matter of time before the processors get busted.

Thus, my tried-and-true strategy of protecting my processor during combat is no longer applicable. I'm at loss about how to deal with this situation. In Research/Access, I have basically two ways of finding the exit (beyond map sense). Hacking it, or mapping it. Terrain processors / scanner / hackware are so rare that I can't usually hoard spares for the rainy days, even though I try to.

Do you guys have suggestions? To be clear, my aim here is to find a reliable way to win combat. In some games, the RNG is friendly and it's almost trivial to win, but what do you do when shit happens and you're left walking blind (with full combat gear, i.e. not in immediate trouble)?

In another topic, the balance change effectively reduces the number of "armor" propulsion slots that can be used. Storage is more difficult to manage (lower integrity, lower capacity, heavier) and I need to carry more spares to account for that (storage is rare and I eventually run out in Research/Access). Furthermore, the need for hackware/processors to stay equipped means that fewer slots are available. All-in-all, it's a harder game!

[Kyzrati]

All-in-all, it's a harder game!

I'll leave suggestions for others to make, though I should first point out it's funny that so far you're the only one to say this about Alpha 6.

Since the release I've already been contacted multiple times by players exclaiming this is the easiest release so far, even too easy (the latter an opinion shared at least by myself and Happylisk). We also had four winning runs immediately after the release, which is unprecedented.

I think your reaction might be a result of your history of heavy reliance on unusual strategies in an attempt to "game the game." Propulsion for armor comes to mind

Well, I may as well get into it: For combat, actual armor will significantly trump "propulsion-armor" for the purpose of protection, due to better coverage and the fact that Processor coverage is almost insignificant. Your basic Lgt. Armor is twice as likely to protect a Processor from a hit than a leg or treads, while Med. Armor nearly three times as likely. (This has always been the case, but obviously it's a more important factor now that you can't detach-hide your Processors to protect them) My combat builds use armor, and I almost never unintentionally lose a Processor. I've played several runs and I think it's only happened once or twice, even when I had about 7 Processors on my hacker build.

Ignoring other coverage, an Exp. Terrain Scan Processor has a 1.23% chance to be hit when paired with a leg/treads, compared with a 0.66% chance with Lgt. Armor (0.44% w/Med.). When you consider a fully armored combat build and its weapons etc., the chances of losing even a single Processor are minuscule. Add to that optional shields and utility shielding, and even Processors that are hit will still take multiple hits to bring down, reducing the chances of loss even further.

Propulsion parts still work as bullet sponges in terms of integrity, but don't expect them to cover your Processors for you!

[zxc]

Re: difficulty of the release, I can't comment for combat runs, but for stealth/flight I think it's a bit easier than the last one (due to hacking changes), but the last few versions have been quite a bit harder than earlier in the alpha (before the 100 speed movement bug was fixed and before traps).

[Decker]

I think your reaction might be a result of your history of heavy reliance on unusual strategies in an attempt to "game the game." Propulsion for armor comes to mind

Exactly! It's harder for me, but not necessarily so for other players with different strategies (such as you).

We also had four winning runs immediately after the release, which is unprecedented.

Same seed, small sample: I contest the representativity of this data set and I attribute most of the result to stochastic variations :-)

I'm halfway joking, but I'll present a more serious counter-point. If, for the same seed, the game is easier when it was already easy (lucky finds for whatever you like - armors, force fields, hackware, processors) but harder without lucky finds, did the game actually get easier? My hypothese is that the RNG plays a major role in how hard a game is. With the balance change, the case where you find just one processor during the course of the game just became more problematic, because losing it is more likely than before (with aggressive/boring swapping). However, with the concentration of hacking into fewer utilities, I'll accept that on average hackware may be easier to find (and that I just got unlucky thus far).

Ignoring other coverage, an Exp. Terrain Scan Processor has a 1.23% chance to be hit when paired with a leg/treads, compared with a 0.66% chance with Lgt. Armor (0.44% w/Med.). When you consider a fully armored combat build and its weapons etc., the chances of losing even a single Processor are minuscule. Add to that optional shields and utility shielding, and even Processors that are hit will still take multiple hits to bring down, reducing the chances of loss even further.

Yup, I think it's time to kiss bye-bye to my trusty propulsion armor!

Note that by this logic, wearing multiple processors actually put all of them more at risk. If I have a single terrain processor, and I find other hackware, it may be in my best interest to avoid wearing them to in order to maximize the coverage that protects my existing processor. Each additional processor is a coverage loss and puts me more at risk of suffering a catastrophic loss.

[Kyzrati]

We also had four winning runs immediately after the release, which is unprecedented.

Same seed, small sample: I contest the representativity of this data set and I attribute most of the result to stochastic variations :-)

Heh, who said anything about same seed? There were three different seeds among these four games (two of them were random--not playing the weekly seed). (And there was another combat run of my own on another seed which made it half way through -1 in excellent shape, but I didn't count it because it wasn't finished nor uploaded. Plus it's me so it doesn't quite count )

I won't deny that the RNG plays a role, and a rather large one at that. Some runs will no doubt be easier, but in the end the idea is that, like any good roguelike, it should be possible to overcome more or less anything the game can throw at you have enough experience. I think the balance has gotten much closer to this than it started out as, but hasn't yet reached it, nor do we want it to just yet, since it's a rapidly moving target as long as more major content is added. Like we mentioned in that earlier thread on this topic, there will be many more developments to come that will affect the balance, as well as give you new options for how to tackle obstacles. More coming with every release! (Actually, there's a huge one added in Alpha 5 that no one's discovered yet, and also some interesting options in Alpha 6 that I don't believe have been explored yet. And to my knowledge only one player has discovered the new way to access the surface lift. This is good, though; I don't want everyone finding absolutely everything in every release, since then it'll be hard to keep up )

In the end, I think the RNG will do its job of making the game fun (and usually challenging) without being unfair.

I'll accept that on average hackware may be easier to find (and that I just got unlucky thus far).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If you really want hackware, the best place to get it now is by hunting down Operators.

Fabricating it might be an option, too, but isn't as easy to do until you already have some.

Note that by this logic, wearing multiple processors actually put all of them more at risk. If I have a single terrain processor, and I find other hackware, it may be in my best interest to avoid wearing them to in order to maximize the coverage that protects my existing processor. Each additional processor is a coverage loss and puts me more at risk of suffering a catastrophic loss.

Sort of. You also deny yourself the benefits of that extra processor. If you're looking for a guaranteed 0% loss rate on processors, yeah that's not quite possible but even with multiple processors the risk is still quite low.

Say you have an average mid-sized combat build with 2 power sources (2*60=120), 3 legs (3*80=240), 3 guns (3*100=300), and 1 Lgt. Armor (1*150=150) plus the core (100). Then you add three Targeting Computers: That's a 6/916 = 0.655% hit chance, or an average of 1 in 152 shots that could hit one (not each) of your computers (and not necessarily even destroy it). If we're talking scan processors it's now 1 in 304 shots. And this is all with a full quarter of your slots dedicated to processors, which is a pretty big portion.

I did these calculations before setting the values, and it's right where I want it in the "unlikely but not impossible" range. Unless of course Cogmind is having trouble keeping those processors covered, in which case it's Cogmind's fault . Processors understandably make for a more fragile build, but even as a combat build in this situation, extreme offense can ensure you don't come under much fire to begin with.

Also, stay the hell away from Brawlers, against which standard coverage mechanics fly out the window and your processors will be rattling in fear.

[Happylisk]

I'm willing to bet your problem is not using enough armor.  By midgame (-5, -4) I like having 3 targeting computers.  In the course of my average game that gets to Research or Access, I only have to replace 1 of these computers due to attrition in alpha 6.  Heavy armor and processors are a match made in heaven.

You're right though that good processors, especially terrain processors, are rare.  It's not uncommon to only see one good terrain scanner and processor in a run.  I think the ideal strategy is to hold off on using terrain scanners in factory, which is fine since factory is easy to get through, and to only rely on terrain scanners in Research and onwards.  Hoard them until then.  After all, Research is the point of the game where finding the exit becomes a nightmare.  I usually have 10ish utility slots by research.  Keeping one good terrain scanning processor alive would be pretty easy in that set up between armor and force fields, and you could swap out the more vulnerable terrain scanner during combat.  The only down side is your combat effectiveness is decreased due to the inability to remove the terrain scan processor. 

I do think the changes to processors and hackware have made a combat cogmind that can consistently hack impossible.  The best I've been able to do is hoard hacking suites for a one off attempt to hack the stairs.  I usually do that on Research -3, which I consider to be the hardest level of the game.  This makes terrain scanners bar none the best way for combat bots to find the stairs late game. 

I personally wouldn't mind as a late game find a more advanced drone bay with drones that are even faster and slightly more durable.  Drones are pretty unreliable when it comes to finding the stairs. 

[Kyzrati]

Terrain scanners are my preferred way to navigate the late game for a combat run as well. And yeah I often keep that stuff in inventory until Research when it becomes a bigger issue. (By comparison, I was surprised at how easy it was to hack exit locations even with just my combat-hacker hybrid in my winning seed run two weeks ago.)

I think that now for a combat build to be more than a basic-level hacker, it will require some luck in obtaining top-tier hacking gear, which is how I want it to be. Also, the best hackware in the game is either extremely rare or never randomly placed at all (later you'll have to visit specific branches to retrieve them), so eventually you'll have access to even better ones you haven't seen yet . Those will enable you to do some good hacking without sacrificing many slots at all.

Some better drone options might be a possibility, too. I've added that to The List.

[Decker]

Thanks for all the tips!

I'll definitely try using some armor -- one or two slots. More is impratical due to high churn + rarity + heat.

Hoarding terrain scanner + processor for Research and beyond sounds like a great idea.

I agree about the impracticality of relying on hackware for a combat bot. I did hunt down every operator I came across and it still didn't yield decent hackware -- often I got nothing at all or just the regular hacking suite, which isn't too useful by Research. I guess one could use sensors + interpreter to improve collection frequency, but this is getting rather involved for a combat build.

I usually do that on Research -3, which I consider to be the hardest level of the game.

I have less problems with -3 now that I systematically hunt for chute traps on -4 before venturing into the Research hell. Starting Research on low security is rather helpful. I carry 3-4 hover units at all time (in inventory) starting from -7/-6 in case I drop into a chute. It's a nice insurance policy.

For me, things typically sour up on -2 or Access due to the gradual alert level buildup. I think I need to improve my strategy to avoid collateral damage to machinery when fighting. The indirect damage of those hunters that keep wrecking everything with their wall-penetrating slugs still counts toward score AND and alert level, right?

Come to think of it, I should probably "cheat" and quit/restore the game to figure out that opaque score mechanism, e.g. to learn if the score/alert depends on which machines you bust and which level you're on. Information is power!

[Kyzrati]

I'll definitely try using some armor -- one or two slots. More is impratical due to high churn + rarity + heat.

Sentries are a pretty reliable source of armor.

I agree about the impracticality of relying on hackware for a combat bot. I did hunt down every operator I came across and it still didn't yield decent hackware -- often I got nothing at all or just the regular hacking suite, which isn't too useful by Research.

Ideally you'll want to be precise about how you deal with them. Hitting them with cannons, for example, is unlikely to leave much of anything, and EM will fry the hackware. Lots of strategies won't work there.

The indirect damage of those hunters that keep wrecking everything with their wall-penetrating slugs still counts toward score AND and alert level, right?

No, it only matters if you (or your allies) destroy stuff, not them. Realistically it should matter regardless of who does it, but that would be a little too mean.