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[Kyzrati]

Storage Units, especially at the high end (really mostly Hcp.), are excessively good when it comes to combat runs, enough so that they're feeding a "carry as much as you can" meta strategy. This needs to be fixed.

I'm just dropping this here in a new thread where anyone can contribute their thoughts (or link to any other previous discussion points I may have missed).

zxc recommends possibly removing Hcp. units entirely. As much as I don't want to do it, that might be a good idea.

An alternative is to increase their slot count and rebalance them to take up more space but perhaps require less mass (?). That said, as much as Storage Units of different slot size can make sense, I really wanted to keep all of them at one slot because it enables easy swapping, and is much simpler to wrap your head around.

Another change coming to Storage Units: they'll be immune to critical hits, and attacks from Saboteurs.

Regarding distribution, another issue I'd like to address which was brought up in an unrelated thread:

Storage units could be worked on. I think maybe splitting up where you find them would help - right now you find all storage units in -10 because they're all rating 1. More efficient (in terms of weight) would be nice for some lower capacity ones (since they're kind of neglected), but 16m/8inventory seems like a good one slot compromise for the ultra-heavy builds.

It's possible to find them later, but by then it's possible to find a lot of different items, so there is a somewhat reduced chance for Storage Units specifically. According to the distribution stats, there is a minimum 0.7% chance for an item/stockpile to be an Hcp. Storage Unit (and another 0.7% for Lrg.), meaning almost every floor has a reasonable chance to contain at least one. (By comparison, there's a 2.1% chance on -10.)

In terms of stats, perfect balance across items is not entirely necessary because some are meant for other robots, thus not always ideal for your own use. In Cogmind's case, smaller Storage is just for backup when you can't find something else (as in later floors where you have less chance of finding an Hcp. unit and have to take out other robots for smaller units, unless you can build your own Hcp. unit, which is where that mechanic comes in).

[zxc]

Well, I only suggest removing HCP ones if you want to reduce the carry capacity of all storage units, because that change achieves that quite effectively.

I think you might want to look at why HCP storage units are stacked for combat runs. The main reason is that items you are using get destroyed rapidly, and if you have none to replace them with, you quickly succumb to your enemies. So, if you want to retain the current balance / level of difficulty when stacking HCP storage units, you could remove / nerf them and reduce item attrition (various ways of doing this - I'm particularly in favour of removing instant item destruction from crits). Another reason why storage units are used is because often you find new items in batches on the floor - more than you currently need. I kind of like how they often come in batches but it means extra storage to carry the spares is needed.

[Kyzrati]

The idea behind finding stockpiles is not that you have to pick them all up, though some players will feel compelled to do so, it's so you can attached duplicates if you like, and maybe carry a spare, if there's inventory space.

I'm definitely looking at the idea of attrition which is what's behind the storage meta. Reducing inventory size doesn't address that root issue, but will bring the game back in line with the idea of trying to reduce the frequency of direct engagements when possible, emphasizing a need to find alternative solutions rather than just carrying along everything you find. Larger inventories will still be possible, just not to the same extent. The final solution can't be reached too quickly, because there are tangentially related elements that will continue to evolve in future versions. Step by step...

I do like the idea of reducing overall inventory capacity. Perhaps keep Hcp. but introduce diminishing returns on the storage space rather than linear improvement. They all remain one slot, and restore the earlier mass reductions at the higher end as well. The specific numbers do tie in to what changes occur with propulsion, most importantly tread speed.

I'm particularly in favour of removing instant item destruction from crits

This is already likely to be changed somewhat. The idea I've got pending is to make Cogmind immune to critical hit destruction against parts with > 25% remaining integrity. This is more or less the same thing as complete immunity to critical hits since a single shot from most anything will take out a part with that little left, except in the case of some extremely high-integrity parts, e.g. armors. And in any case, you know that when you have a red-marked part (<= 25% integrity) it could go at any moment, anyway.

[zxc]

The idea I've got pending is to make Cogmind immune to critical hit destruction against parts with > 25% remaining integrity.

I assume critical hits deal more damage. If this is the case, why have a special case where parts get insta-destroyed anyway?

[Kyzrati]

Nope, that was the whole point of critical hits, they insta-destroy. There is no extra damage mechanic (why would there need to be if they always insta-destroyed the target?).

[zxc]

Nope, that was the whole point of critical hits, they insta-destroy. There is no extra damage mechanic (why would there need to be if they always insta-destroyed the target?).

I see. It's just critical hits dealing extra damage is such a staple of gaming that I thought that's how it worked (say, if your core were hit by a crit). I'm not sure what to suggest then. More thought necessary.

[Kyzrati]

That certainly is more common. The only exception here is your own core, which when hit by a critical suffers no additional effects; if theirs it means instant death.

There are other side effects of criticals along standard lines, like greater corruption from EM damage.

[Agroesch]

Wouldn't re-balancing tread's speed penalties and support help this a lot? I feel like the effective unlimited weight limit of treads is half of the problem regarding hoarding.

[Kyzrati]

Agreed, that is a higher priority that will have an impact on hoarding. The storage-propulsion discussions have been interrelated since they began, though in this case I made a new thread to see if there were any differing/isolated opinions.

[Happylisk]

The real problem here is that there's no real downside to stacking 40 inventory slots.  The biggest downside is a slight decrease in optimal performance, but the ability to always have key utilities up and running (armor + force fields + targeting) more than offsets it.  I don't even think changing weight and propulsion would fix it.  If I suddenly found myself at slow x 3 due to my massive inventory, I still probably wouldn't care since virtually all combat in this game is ranged and I usually stay pretty stationary once a fight begins. 

I think a new downside to massive inventories is needed.  A few suggestions (I'm not suggesting all of these, just as many needed to achieve better balance). 

* Accuracy penalty on a exponential scale.  -5% beginning at 15 items, -10% at 25 items, -15% at 30, etc.  No hard caps of course, so you'd have like a -9% penalty at 24 or however the math shakes out.  This represents your cogmind being able to move its guns more slowly due to all the bulk within.

* Reduced dodge chances on a similar exponential scale.  Represents enemies having an easier time hitting you due to your bulk.

* Each item in the inventory past a certain amount generates a bit of heat (since you're becoming denser and trapping heat in).


If you implement any of the above, not only does your combat effectiveness go down due to having lots of storage units, but it goes further down as you either become easier to hit, have a worse time shooting, become more hot.  That consequence could be dealt with with appropriate utilities, but at a certain point having 4 of your utility slots going to storage and then on top of that 1-2 more utility slots being used to deal with the side effects of mass storage really puts a crimp on your combat effectiveness.  This would also be a pure nerf to cogmind and not other bots, since no other enemy has mass storage.   

[Kyzrati]

If I suddenly found myself at slow x 3 due to my massive inventory, I still probably wouldn't care since virtually all combat in this game is ranged and I usually stay pretty stationary once a fight begins.

One extremely important factor you're leaving out here: Being slow even outside combat is highly detrimental to your chances of survival, because you take forever to get places and in that time the clock is ticking and the chances of driving up your influence as you attract more hostiles increases with time. In that respect, slowing down overweight treads is going to have a bigger impact than you might imagine.

I kinda like the idea of reduced evasion. It's simple to understand, and could be indicated as a -X% next to the inventory load (like the parts list overweight indicator).

The other ideas are interesting as well; the heat idea in particular uses the same logic as thicker armors.

Reduced evasion is the most difficult to counteract via other utilities, while also putting a soft but undeniable cap on inventory size since you would get hit more and cancel out the benefit of carrying more parts in the first place.

(Pure nerfs to Cogmind are fine as long as they serve the design, since honestly almost every new feature or tweak each release is some kind of Cogmind advantage )

[Happylisk]

I had considered that slower = more programmer dispatches.  I think with enough Alert purges it's easy enough to keep the security level down, and if you're building your volleys correctly one shotting programmers is pretty easy.  They're not as resilient as hunters. 

Plus, the interaction between speed and the security level as a downside is kind of opaque and would not be readily apparent to new players.  If we don't want people stacking 40 items, the mechanic that makes that suboptimal should be right in your face. 

[zxc]

I'd be perfectly fine with not carrying 50 items if, with good play, I could avoid running out of items with <= 12 inventory. I haven't tried it since my first couple of combat runs however. I'd also be in favour of a more... light-handed approach to nerfing storage stacking. So rather than introducing more complex penalties, you remove HCP storage units, leaving behind only large storage units, which offer a lesser benefit for each slot. This would nerf storage stacking slightly without introducing new systems and complexity. Maybe increase the rating to 3, to make them a touch harder to fabricate, and we're done (maybe).

You could introduce a penalty to evasion while overweight, in proportion to how overweight you are... just throwing that out there. I'd fear it would kill off the ignore-weight playstyle, but it'd give some further incentives to equip more treads.

[Kyzrati]

If anything we don't want to be too heavy-handed here, which is one reason changes to this might happen piecemeal over more than one version.

Because I think tread speed is a more fundamental factor here, the first thing I'll want to do is set up a complete spreadsheet with all the propulsion variables looking at how they behave in different situations. This should've been done for pre-alpha, but the system was working fine 95% of the time and the other 5% wasn't discovered until more recently because only now do we have a number of players min-maxing everything under unique conditions and at all points of the game

I'd be perfectly fine with not carrying 50 items if, with good play, I could avoid running out of items with <= 12 inventory.

This is crucial to the issue, yes, although with a heavy combat build I would say 20 is still fine. That's my goal for balance purposes.

In terms of general difficulty, I'm currently tweaking squad dispatch rates to account for garrisons (which will also affect where and how you fight, among other strategies), so we'll be seeing how that affects the situation overall.

[Happylisk]

I wonder if there's room in the game for a utility that gradually restores integrity to equipped items at a steep matter cost.  I find it interesting that the only way to patch up an item (that I know of) is via repair stations.   The more ways there are to patch yourself up, the less important hoarding becomes.

EDIT: said utility would be unable to fix itself, of course, and should be nice and rare. 

[zxc]

Maybe a boost to repair station effectiveness? By increasing success rates for hacks.

[mendonca]

Has it been considered what impact the base inventory size would have, generally?

i.e. what if Cogmind got more room as s/he evolves? Or just started off with a couple more spots?

I know this is effectively unrelated to maximum inventory sizes (which is the main issue presented here), is a straight-up buff (which is rarely good on its own) but it is easy to understand why Cogmind WOULD get more storage with each evolution, and perhaps could form part of the equation reducing pressure to ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO carry around as many storage units as possible.

Not sure whether it would be a good idea or not, but thought I would bring it up as it doesn't seem to have been discussed and might even be part of the mitigation to carrying out several nerfs to builds which rely on a huge quantity of utility-based storage.

[Draco18s]

I wonder if there's room in the game for a utility that gradually restores integrity to equipped items at a steep matter cost.

There is one like that, but the cost is "an identical item with less integrity."  Which is more often than not, less than helpful.

[Kyzrati]

The next upcoming adjustment for this issue is to remove Hcp. Storage Units in Alpha 6.



Farewell, we'll miss you and your OP amount of space...

[Sherlockkat]

Aah. I will miss you, old friend  . Looking forward to alpha 6 and the mechanics revamp.

[Happylisk]

Just had my first Alpha 6 run and got to access.  For half the game I only had one large storage unit equipped at any time, and for the latter half I had 2.  I never felt like my 16 inventory slots were too few.  The recent improvements to treads and legs, as well as the improvements to weapons (fixing the stationary accuracy bug + weapon volley changes) have made smaller inventories much more manageable.  The loss of the HCP Stg. Unit is sad but probably an overdue nerf. 

There is one change I would like to see though: a small increase to cannon integrity.  Unlike guns, you never get cannons from enemies so losing one is a pinch more annoying than say losing a tesla rifle or a rail gun.  A small boost there around the board would further decrease inventory pressures on combat cogminds (and would indirectly buff Behemoths I believe, which I am always in favor of doing).   

[Kyzrati]

All good to hear! Another factor working towards improved inventory efficiency is the practically non-losable processors/hackware (so you aren't forced to carry spares for those you want to rely on).

I don't think I'd go along with an increase in cannon integrity, at least not by itself. They already have about 50% more integrity than guns. If they get an integrity boost, they'd also need a coverage boost, effectively turning them into even better armor than they already are.

I think there's only so far we can go in terms of decreasing inventory pressure via part stat adjustments, because as long as you can increase your own inventory size with a heavy build, there will always be an outsized benefit of carrying more parts.

It's true you mostly rely on stockpiles and random finds to obtain cannons, though being intended for heavier builds you should also have the capability to protect them with defensive gear.

About Behemoths, do you ever really disarm them before destroying them? They have so much armor and other parts that disarmament is unlikely. I've never done it before!

[Happylisk]

That's a good point, if you keep tinkering with gun integrity/coverage it'll eventually become armor-light which seems kind of silly. 

The only reason I brought it up is because the changes to mass volleys have gotten me to use more weapons at once than I previously did, which takes a greater toll on cannons.  I'm also trying to figure out what's the ideal gun to cannon ratio.  I'm beginning to find it's easier to stack thermal cannons since the only real issue is heat which can be addressed by 3 heat sinks, whereas massed kinetics requires a bit of matter finesse. 

And now we're off topic. 

[Kyzrati]

Well, this original topic is mostly a done deal now, anyway

it'll eventually become armor-light which seems kind of silly. 

Basically, what happened with legs/treads!

I think an ideal ratio will depend a lot on your play style. I keep trying to convince myself to use thermal more often, but I usually end up loaded with kinetic instead, and just carefully watch my matter reserves (Tractor Beams can be so nice).

On this most recent run I had a lot of cannons and was having to pay close attention to mass to avoid going overweight, so that's another factor.

[mindreader]

I hate to bump an old topic, but I had a run where I was doing great, and then I fell into a chute while running treads and I had to abandon most of my stuff.  And then I totally escaped and recovered and had a great setup, but I didn't have my large storage unit anymore and bam I was dead in half a floor because I ran out of guns.

I'm not super fond of the reliance on storage units for combat builds.  They are easy to pick up on -10 and barely exist on floors above that, so I've noticed a ton of my runs end with the loss of a storage unit.  I have actually gotten to the point to where I start picking up jetpacks because I know I'm going to have to run for my life soon.  I also tend to scan storage units early although I rarely am able to find and successfully fab one when I need it due to being stuck in a combat build.

I'm interested in what you think of the changes you've done, and what you think of some of the suggestions others gave throughout this thread in that light.  Two suggestions that stuck out to me, adding inventory slots every other level or making repair stations not suck for non hackers so that you could repair a few pieces of equipment occasionally.  I think I've lost more equipment than I've repaired, so I no longer bother anymore.