Grid Sage Forums

Grid Sage Forums

  • November 22, 2024, 12:36:33 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

LINKS: Website | Steam | Wiki

Author Topic: An Interesting Discovery About Speed  (Read 6159 times)

Kyzrati

  • Administrator
  • True Cogmind
  • *****
  • Posts: 4477
    • View Profile
    • Cogmind
An Interesting Discovery About Speed
« on: August 25, 2015, 10:40:46 PM »

A few days ago I added a new class of robot to the game, one of several for Alpha 3. This one in particular I wanted to make sure it moved at a certain speed relative to a player with treads. During testing it kept catching up to me, despite its info page showing a speed that should've been a good bit slower than myself at the time.

On closer inspection of what was going on, I made a very interesting discovery indeed...

The AI has been completely ignoring the speed of its robot in telling the game how long its chosen action takes.

Fast robots, slow robots, all robots (except you) have been moving at a rate of one space per game turn. Out of curiosity I even went back and checked the original 7DRL code. Same thing! I'm surprised that in all this time, several years now, no one noticed this discrepancy (not even me...).

For example, looking at an S-10 Pest's info you'll see that its loadout gives it a movement cost of 30. So if you're hopping around on one leg (100) that Pest should theoretically move 3.3 times as fast as you, or at least three spaces to your one. But no, they actually move one space to your one (because one game turn = 100 time units).

What this means: Some serious changes could be coming.
Now that I know about it I can't very well let it stay like this,
though a complete fix has some drawbacks:
  • Significant changes in relative speed will have an impact on both strategy and tactics--probably for the better? (I haven't playtested it yet because there are a number of other Alpha 3 features to implement first.)
  • Large areas like the Factory and beyond can become noticeably slower on some systems because on average there are more AI actions taking place between your turns (I've yet to profile this for the details).
Certainly there's nothing like playing it to experience the difference but for now just imagine the following changes if taken by the numbers--robots you've been fighting/running from would suddenly have their speed change as follows:
  • Swarmers move three times faster (the best model = four times faster)
  • Assembled double in speed (<--another nasty revelation =p)
  • Watchers / Programmers / Operators double in speed
  • Grunts / Rogues / ARCs stay about the same
  • Sentry / Brawler speed dropped by 50% (whew)
  • Behemoth speed halved (double whew)
Something significant will be changing in Alpha 3 (in addition to all the other stuff), but exactly how is yet to be determined.
Logged
Josh Ge, Developer - Dev Blog | @GridSageGames | Patreon

Gobbopathe

  • Derelict
  • **
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
Re: An Interesting Discovery About Speed
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2015, 10:48:56 AM »

Very funny, since I just uploaded my first Cogmind's video (should I open a dedicate thread just for info, or put a link here ?) and the very first robots I have met were pests. I say "see, here I will go back in that room to wait for them but they should move 3 times faster" and I was a bit puzzled when I noticed it wasn't the case. I have told myself it should have been because they shot at me so it took a volley time, but one did not and was not that fast, well I was still full of doubts.
So it is a clarification here !
Logged

Kasaris

  • Derelict
  • **
  • Weekly Seed Participant Supported Cogmind Alpha Access 2015-2017 (Prime Tier)
  • Posts: 43
    • View Profile
Re: An Interesting Discovery About Speed
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2015, 11:16:14 AM »

I don't mind changes  ::)
Logged

Ghost73

  • Unaware
  • *
  • Supported Cogmind Alpha Access 2015-2017 (Prime Tier)
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: An Interesting Discovery About Speed
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2015, 12:39:03 PM »

I was wondering about this too, but I found it difficult to track accurately. It does seem that enemies wait the correct amount of time after attacking, but I could be wrong.

I think it might also help players if the turn counter also had a time unit counter for that turn, such as:
[turnCount].[timeUnits]

This way players know how much time is left for that turn considering there are actions that don't take a full turn.

A couple other things I noticed (not 100% sure):
The waiting action appears to wait until the beginning of the next turn and not wait for 100 time units. I'm not sure if this is intended or not, but it is unclear in controls/documentation.

Enemy robots appear to only perform actions at the beginning of turns and not during turns, like the player can. (might be linked to the movement time issue above)


Also, a timer for each robot showing the time left until they perform a new action would also be helpful, but that might just be me, I'm kind of an info addict :D
Logged

Kyzrati

  • Administrator
  • True Cogmind
  • *****
  • Posts: 4477
    • View Profile
    • Cogmind
Re: An Interesting Discovery About Speed
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2015, 07:33:23 PM »

Very funny, since I just uploaded my first Cogmind's video (should I open a dedicate thread just for info, or put a link here ?) and the very first robots I have met were pests. I say "see, here I will go back in that room to wait for them but they should move 3 times faster" and I was a bit puzzled when I noticed it wasn't the case. I have told myself it should have been because they shot at me so it took a volley time, but one did not and was not that fast, well I was still full of doubts.
So it is a clarification here !
Anyone is free to start a thread for their LPs (one thread per person, please). Go ahead and make one in this (General Discussion) board, unless it talks a lot about strategy, in which case you can drop it in the Strategies board like jimmijamjams.

And thanks for your video, Gobbopathe! I saw it linked on Twitter and it brought in a few more sales last night 8)

I was wondering about this too, but I found it difficult to track accurately. It does seem that enemies wait the correct amount of time after attacking, but I could be wrong.
AI time failed to be correctly reported for movement only--all other actions are working normally (including volley time).

I think it might also help players if the turn counter also had a time unit counter for that turn, such as:
[turnCount].[timeUnits]

This way players know how much time is left for that turn considering there are actions that don't take a full turn.
That's an interesting idea, though I think it might end up more confusing than helpful since all robot turns are relative. No robots take turns on an actual turn, only when they are ready to act (which can happen at any time depending on when their last action occurred). I do see one possible advantage: Players could get an even stronger feeling for exactly how long actions take. Maybe I could make that part of Tactical HUD mode to hide it from beginners but make it available to experienced players.

A couple other things I noticed (not 100% sure):
The waiting action appears to wait until the beginning of the next turn and not wait for 100 time units. I'm not sure if this is intended or not, but it is unclear in controls/documentation.

Enemy robots appear to only perform actions at the beginning of turns and not during turns, like the player can. (might be linked to the movement time issue above)
Yeah, this must be an illusory side-effect of the newly discovered one-turn movement issue, since most non-movement actions are intended to take exactly one turn. Robots follow the exact same rules as the player regarding time--the time system just puts everyone in a queue and pushes them back by X time every action they take. There is in fact no relation to the game turns counter at all--the "turn counter" itself is shifted around within that same queue as necessary, always being pushed back by 100 units every time its own "turn" comes around ;).

Waiting simply pushes the player back in the queue by 100 units, behaving as an action that costs 100 time, so in game turns it could theoretically put you at the beginning, or the end, of the next "turn," but no matter what it will be somewhere in the next turn where you end up.

As you can see, turns are really just a convenient way to talk about the passage of time, but not super strict (with regards to robots) except when talking about effects and events that are intended to happen on a per-turn basis.

Also, a timer for each robot showing the time left until they perform a new action would also be helpful, but that might just be me, I'm kind of an info addict :D
I was thinking about that, the kind of feature you see in some tactical combat games, though I wasn't sure how useful it would really be. I'm sure the info addicts among you would love it :)

It would certainly be doable, probably as on-map popup labels that just display a number next to each robot (akin to the damage popups in style).

Now that I think about it, it would be especially helpful in certain situations like when enemies fire and you want to know their remaining volley duration, or for really fast sneaking Cogminds you might want to know if you can cross a hallway before a Sentry spots you, or have to duck back in and find a different route to avoid being noticed.

I'll think about it, but probably not for Alpha 3--the high-priority TODO list on that is still too long and I want it out the door soon :D

I don't mind changes  ::)
Oh you'll get some :P
Logged
Josh Ge, Developer - Dev Blog | @GridSageGames | Patreon

Gobbopathe

  • Derelict
  • **
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
Re: An Interesting Discovery About Speed
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2015, 05:54:14 AM »

Also, a timer for each robot showing the time left until they perform a new action would also be helpful, but that might just be me, I'm kind of an info addict :D

Like Ghost73 I thought about this, but did not dare to ask, thinking you would consider it could "break" the game. As you mentioned it would give us information

Quote from: Kyzrati
it would be especially helpful in certain situations like when enemies fire and you want to know their remaining volley duration, or for really fast sneaking Cogminds you might want to know if you can cross a hallway before a Sentry spots you, or have to duck back in and find a different route to avoid being noticed.

But if you consider it is fine it would be really great ! I definitely love having such in game information that can help me plan a route
Logged

Kyzrati

  • Administrator
  • True Cogmind
  • *****
  • Posts: 4477
    • View Profile
    • Cogmind
Re: An Interesting Discovery About Speed
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2015, 06:11:43 AM »

The main thing that makes me wary of adding features like this is that excessively detailed information can end up backfiring, ruining the experience for a portion of players who feel that they must take advantage of all available information for perfect play, but don't necessarily enjoy actually following through on that and eventually get frustrated at the tedium.

I will at least test it and see if and what kind of affect it has on play. I do think agree it's realistic and useful information overall.

But not for Alpha 3. That feature list is already locked down :)
Logged
Josh Ge, Developer - Dev Blog | @GridSageGames | Patreon

Reiver

  • Derelict
  • **
  • Participated in the Alpha Challenge 2015
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: An Interesting Discovery About Speed
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2015, 09:52:04 PM »

  • Swarmers move three times faster (the best model = four times faster)
  • Assembled double in speed (<--another nasty revelation =p)
  • Watchers / Programmers / Operators double in speed
"I'll take 'Reasons I'll never use treads again' for $500, Jim!"
Logged

Kyzrati

  • Administrator
  • True Cogmind
  • *****
  • Posts: 4477
    • View Profile
    • Cogmind
Re: An Interesting Discovery About Speed
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2015, 10:00:19 PM »

Haha, it's not that bad. Okay, maybe it is ;)

Treads are generally overkill in the early game, anyway. You can have an effective combat build with almost anything using the right tactics.

If you're really paranoid you can just carry a signal interpreter which now identifies all exits by name when you stand next to them! Never accidentally wander into the Mines again :D

Although that's... not the last you'll be seeing of the Infestation... ... ... :-X
Logged
Josh Ge, Developer - Dev Blog | @GridSageGames | Patreon

zxc

  • Cogmind
  • *****
  • 1st place in the High Scores category during Alpha Challenge 2015 1st place in the Best Escapes category during Alpha Challenge 2015 Shared a Confirmed Combat Win Shared a Confirmed Stealth Win Kyzrati Patron Bug Hunter Achievement leader in at least one category during Alpha Challenge 2015 Participated in the Alpha Challenge 2015 Wiki Contributor Weekly Seed Participant
  • Posts: 726
    • View Profile
Re: An Interesting Discovery About Speed
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2015, 02:34:29 AM »

Another reason why I think I never noticed the speed bug is that almost all the enemies use ranged weapons, and it's tricky to know how long the firing delay is for weapons used by the enemy. I noticed swarmers moving towards me slowly many times, but I always assumed it was the result of them firing after they moved, or instead of moving.
Logged

Kyzrati

  • Administrator
  • True Cogmind
  • *****
  • Posts: 4477
    • View Profile
    • Cogmind
Re: An Interesting Discovery About Speed
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2015, 02:53:29 AM »

Quite true. Ranged combat and firing delays make it a lot tougher to notice, and once enemies see you they usually open fire. The slow movement after firing is just the occasional closing on your position (by a single space regardless of speed) to get a better shot, not regular quick movement, so that bit doesn't really count.

You'll definitely notice the new Swarmer speed in Alpha 3, as soon as you try to reposition out of sight for defense they'll be on top of you in no time (unless you are also flying). I'm interested to see if and how much speed runs are hindered by the new Swarmer speed. (Programmers, too, but flying at full speed you could still outrun those without too much trouble.)
Logged
Josh Ge, Developer - Dev Blog | @GridSageGames | Patreon