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[Gobbopathe]

Hi

I have a question about the watcher class (and the security system).
The watchers do send distress signals. Some services robots do as well when you shoot at them. I know a transmission jammer can... jam the signal to avoid it, I have experienced it positively. But how does that signal work ? Is there a range and will it call all the roaming robots in a radius ? Is it sent to the main AI and then, as soon as you read a signal was sent you know for sure you're going to see bad asses around the corner ? Or does it only increase the security level, without giving your position ? Or both ?
Is it your current location (the square ? a larger area ?) which is given (I guess yes) ? Then if I run (fly) away fast and leave that square/area I should manage to avoid the incoming cerberes team ? Is there a difference with the "arbitrary" message you can read sometimes saying "a rogue bot has been detected in area XXX in the Factory/..." ? By the way, does that message happen more often when security level is higher, and less often otherwise?

I have watched jimmijamjams' videos (great material by the way) and I am a bit puzzled by his frivolity, letting watchers run at Cogmind's side without a blink of an eye, without trying to shoot at them. He always ignores them. I watched some other guy video : the same. On the contrary I am always pissed off when I see one of those, trying to shoot it before it sends that damned signal, and 9 times out of 10 I fail. Then comes the fear. And the questions : how should I manage that situation without giving my position ? But looking at jimmijamjams' videos, he seems (apparently) right to ignore it (I know that's a first impression only), I finally can't see terrible consequences.

Don't you try to shoot watchers as soon as you detect them ?

And I would like to know better about the security system. So I know there is a security level, but what does it impact ? Some patrols coming out of nowhere ? (actually do robots pop out of nowhere ? Or do you have hidden "waiting patrols" in fading walls, when for instance you're detected and/or (which one is correct?) the security level is increased) ? Or simply better equiped patrols (I have read that in an other thread) ? In a level, are there "standard" robots not going to be changed by the security level, and others going to vary function of that level ? More patrols if security level increses ?

And a last question : can you confirm today there is no noise in Cogmind ? Just field of vision, and those signals about which I would like to know more ? If a guard is in a room closed by a door, and I shoot in the corridor, no fear it hears the battle ?

Sorry for all these questions, back to the asylum for me this afternoon

[Kyzrati]

I'd like to let anyone else weigh in on this one rather than say too much myself, because almost everything you've asked can be learned in game through observation, so it's really a question of experience rather than something that should be in the manual, per se. Proper answers to these questions would make good substance for a strategy guide

There are, however, a few details that may be quite difficult (but not impossible) to learn normally, and explanations for those will be provided in game via a new area of the world to be added before the end of the year. There you'll be able to more quickly gather intelligence about the mechanics behind the enemy's operations/behavior.

How you deal with Watchers is a matter of taste--I personally kinda like letting them run around on their own under certain circumstances because they'll act as a makeshift radar that tells me when enemies are approaching so I can prepare a defense

I'll tell you now that robots do not care about sound, no, but like some of your other points, that one can easily be determined by equipping some good scanners and watching how robots that can't actually see you behave and react in different circumstances. Similarly, map-wide behavioral mechanics can be discerned via terminal hacking.

[Gobbopathe]

Thanks a lot for your answer, you are totally right not to give all the keys at once, and I appreciate that. And you're right, I was aware proper observation could answer at least some of these questions.
I will try to figure it out by myself in future runs. Still exchanging our feelings on that topic between ignorant players would be interesting and quite fun

[jimmijamjams]

Did someone call my name?  Allow me to elaborate on my reactions to watchers

My personal way to deal with Watchers is to mostly ignore them.  This is certainly a style rather than a 'correct' or 'optimum' method.  I do this for a few reasons:

1. They are hard to hit. Sometimes I feel the lost Matter/time/energy is not worth the effort, especially as they make their escape.
2. I don't need anything from them. They do carry some good items, but some those items are not very effective in the early game in my opinion.
3. If they call out for help I know where the enemy is heading. This can provide many opportunities for evading enemies that are patrolling when you start to understand how they move around. Especially if you have the right equipment to see what they do when you're not there.

If you're looking for a way to understand the movement of enemies I can highly recommend using Scanners and Signal Interpreters

I'll be interested in reading other people's experiences on this matter.

[Gobbopathe]

Thanks for your answers. I start thinking myself it is vain.
By the way I see a fourth reason not to shoot at watchers : I guess it would raise that damned security level

[Draco18s]

I suppose the question I have fits into this thread, so I may as well ask here.

Given the small vision radius (compared to a level) and the speed at which watchers move, I'm curious as to their pathing goals.  That is, how do they pick a new location to go flying off to (assuming the absence of threats)?

I swear I've seen one fly out of my view radius and only a couple of turns later, fly back the other way.

[Kyzrati]

Once you get powerful sensors (which can see out to ridiculous ranges even out of sight) you can track some enemies and learn how they and other robots behave. Or someone else can tell you

[zxc]

I think Watchers, along with most groups of units, have patrol paths. Sometimes when I sit in a safe spot and observe enemies with sensors and interpreters, I see the same paths get used. Often, the same paths used by a Watcher are used by a Grunt patrol. They make use of some secret doors and not others, depending on the patrol. Often, hiding in a secret passage is a good way to avoid patrols unless it's one of those 'useful' secret passages that are a serious shortcut between two areas.

Watchers try to send a distress call when they first spot you (and I don't think they try again after that), and I think only when enemies are near to them to help.

[Adraius]

I think Watchers, along with most groups of units, have patrol paths. Sometimes when I sit in a safe spot and observe enemies with sensors and interpreters, I see the same paths get used. Often, the same paths used by a Watcher are used by a Grunt patrol. They make use of some secret doors and not others, depending on the patrol. Often, hiding in a secret passage is a good way to avoid patrols unless it's one of those 'useful' secret passages that are a serious shortcut between two areas.

Watchers try to send a distress call when they first spot you (and I don't think they try again after that), and I think only when enemies are near to them to help.

Good info on patrol paths and hiding in hidden passages, thanks.  Watchers seem to patrol set paths that don't react to Cogmind's presence, but if they see Cogmind and there is also a patrol in the direct vicinity, they'll send out a distress call.  I'm not sure if this call just summons them to the Watcher's location, the location it sent the signal from, sends them directly after Cogmind, or is handled a way I haven't thought of, though.  I'm also not 100% what types of enemies are eligible to be summoned - is it patrols only?  Has anyone seen a Sentry summoned?  I've seen them summoned occasionally, but I think those might have only been from distress calls from non-hostile robots like Transporters and Serfs.

[zxc]

I had a nearby Sentry pulled from his guard post by an operator which summoned reinforcements.

[Draco18s]

I'm more interested in how those patrol paths are constructed, actually, which I'm not sure is something that can be directly observed, other than trying to note any patterns that emerge.

The reason is that I've been working on my own stealth game with proc-gen maps and I'm trying to figure out how to create patrol loops that don't do weird stuff like "walk into a room and immediately turn around."  I've got one method set up already.  Essentially the map is divided both by grid units (like a standard roguelike) and by rooms (a volume of open space).  Rooms are connected via hallways built along Minimal Spanning Tree connections, plus a few more.  By knowing that these "plus few more" paths intrinsically create loops, I can tell the pathfinder "look at the hallway map, find a route from A to B without using Hallway C.  Which will patrol a large loop around the map.

But if I want a patrol that ducks into some of the more "dead end" pathways (even if its a string of 3 or more rooms), I need something trickier.  So I was wondering what approach the Watchers route takes.  I'll note that my map has secret passages as well, but they're explicitly ones not known by the system at large.

[Kyzrati]

Interesting. For now, in my case, I made it completely random . If you watch you'll see them always follow the same path, though there are some basic restrictions on area size chosen by different classes. Watchers are allowed to patrol across an entire map.

Certainly I could put more effort into this particular system given all the available map metrics, but that wouldn't have a huge impact on the game, as exerting tighter control is a lot of work for something that players won't take much note of (compared to the other elements that time can be put towards). Development is always about trade offs.

Note that this is in Cogmind--other games can benefit from a system if it suits the environment and mechanics in general.

[Draco18s]

Of course.
I was just trying to figure out what method they used, because it looked random.  And if it is (predefined once and looped) random, then that's fine too.

I'll probably have to do something about making my map a titch more connected if I want to do something like that.  As it is, any given room pair only has one direct connection between them, whereas Cogmind has room for two or three in some cases.

[Kyzrati]

I'll probably have to do something about making my map a titch more connected if I want to do something like that.  As it is, any given room pair only has one direct connection between them, whereas Cogmind has room for two or three in some cases.

Hm, that's an interesting decision. From a tactical standpoint you normally want a number of additional connections in order to create looping paths that prevent the map from being too boring to explore.

I talk about this in a couple of my mapgen posts (1, 2).

[Draco18s]

Hm, that's an interesting decision. From a tactical standpoint you normally want a number of additional connections in order to create looping paths that prevent the map from being too boring to explore.

I talk about this in a couple of my mapgen posts (1, 2).

I've got some loops already, I just don't have anything like a main hallway.  I'd probably have to refactor some of the mapgen code to handle multiple room-pair connections (that is, more than one connection between any given two rooms).  Here's an example of what I have right now, its a variant of the system explained on reddit.  The narrow spaces are the secret routes, the system backdoors, that give the player an additional way to navigate that the enemies cannot use.  Sort of the reverse of your hidden doors.

Anyway, my maps have a high dead-end to branch ratio.  I'll take a read over your mapgen entries again, though.  See if anything comes to mind.

[Kyzrati]

I've seen that algorithm making the rounds for the past couple years.

That particular shot you've got doesn't look too bad. Depends on the pacing of the game. It's a rather small map anyway, but I can see how it might get worse if you expanded the size.

I'd probably have to refactor some of the mapgen code to handle multiple room-pair connections (that is, more than one connection between any given two rooms).

Couldn't you just use your current secret routes algorithm for that? Consider doing it as a second pass after the initial generation.

[Draco18s]

I've seen that algorithm making the rounds for the past couple years.

Yeah, I ran into it about two years ago when I was working on my first stab at this game.  I had some issues with scale; too much hallway, not enough room.  I also hadn't managed to extend it to 3D very well, the code I have now can handle multiple floors very nicely, although I do still have one TODO marked so that I can have multiple stairways between levels.  I could use it right now, but the stairs aren't guaranteed to go anywhere.  It should be easy to fix, it just isn't handled yet.

That particular shot you've got doesn't look too bad. Depends on the pacing of the game. It's a rather small map anyway, but I can see how it might get worse if you expanded the size.

I'm not going to be expecting the player to traverse the whole thing.  A large map might be used several times, with goals placed in different locations.  It also helps that the feeling of scale is different for the same cell-volume as a roguelike when compared to other types of games.  I'm using a first-person camera; the screenshot was just taken top-down for demonstration.  Actual gameplay would look more like this.  From earlier today after I finished with the shader code for interactible-highlighting (green outline).  In the background the wallhack ability is visible, showing two enemies on the other side of the wall (similar to Cogmind's robot scanning) which is how I plan on giving the player advanced warning that there are hostiles on the other side of an opaque barrier (TODO: make opaque barriers).

I'd probably have to refactor some of the mapgen code to handle multiple room-pair connections (that is, more than one connection between any given two rooms).

Couldn't you just use your current secret routes algorithm for that? Consider doing it as a second pass after the initial generation.

Its a possibility.  Just that the secret passage algorithm is a lot different than a standard hallway.  It doesn't care what it connects up with, or even that it reaches its target room.  There's a handful of cells it can't connect to (e.g. doors), but they're also easy to avoid, given the loose parameters that allow it to terminate.  Thanks for the suggestion, though.  I might be able to utilize something similar.