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[zxc]

Item swapping is something you do a lot of in this game. One thing I realised very early on was how awkward it was to swap parts in keyboard mode. With the mouse you can just drag the new item and drop it on the item to replace. In keyboard mode, you have to hold Ctrl-Shift and hit the letter of the item to be replaced, and then Ctrl-Shift and number of the replacement. I find it awkward and it's also hard on my mild RSI to hold both Ctrl and Shift and hit other keys. Right now it's the only time I turn off keyboard mode in order to do something.

A far easier and simpler way to swap items would be to equip items as you normally would with Ctrl and the item number, and then it prompts you for which item to replace. Pressing escape or some invalid key will cancel out of the process.

Example: You want to replace your equipped item A with inventory item 1.

Old system:
Ctrl-Shift a
Ctrl-Shift 1

New system:
Ctrl-1
a

This would be easier for all players, more intuitive, and would consolidate superfluous keybindings (Ctrl-Shift). This is my number one suggestion for this game right now.

Also it would be neat and logical to extend this to equipping items off the ground. Hit a and the letter of the item to replace (if there is more than one possibility to replace else just replace) instead of hitting Alt-letter to drop your item and then a to equip the new one.

[Kyzrati]

I like the idea of streamlining that process, though there are some obstacles to doing so:

Ctrl-1 is the command to attach an item, which is something you may do just as often as swapping depending on play style. It would seem like this would still need to be initiated with Ctrl-Shift-1, unless you had something else in mind?

Also, this is the kind of suggestion that comes from players already familiar with the game, but is more confusing to learn if you're just starting out. Conceptually I believe it's easier to just say Ctrl-Shift is the swap mode, so hold Ctrl-Shift while pressing a number then a letter to swap the two.

Doing this would require adding a new mode, and would be a fairly involved change.

[zxc]

I don't quite see the distinction you are making between swapping items and attaching new items. You're attaching an item either way - the only difference is that you already had an item equipped when you are swapping.

I strongly disagree that this suggestion would be harder for new players to learn. On my very first game I was trying this, and was surprised to find that you had to use an entirely different method to swap items. You can even keep the current swap keys if necessary. Just if you try to attach a part and you have no room, instead of giving the rather useless text 'No free slot' you can prompt for which item to replace. To me it doesn't sound like a very involved change, but it would make a world of difference to the UI.

[Kyzrati]

I don't quite see the distinction you are making between swapping items and attaching new items. You're attaching an item either way - the only difference is that you already had an item equipped when you are swapping.

This creates a disconnect between what happens with a single command, as under certain circumstances there can be multiple results, and you can't tell which one the player wants without making an assumption which may be wrong.

For example, what if I have two weapon slots, one with a weapon, the other is empty. I press Ctrl-1 because I want to swap the first inventory weapon with my attached weapon, but the second weapon is instead automatically attached. That's not what I wanted to do.

This is unless you'd like it so that equipping any item always requires you to specify a target slot rather than assigning it automatically? I think it's most efficient to let the game handle that.

Just if you try to attach a part and you have no room, instead of giving the rather useless text 'No free slot' you can prompt for which item to replace.

So the assumption here is that you only swap like this when there are no free slots. I didn't get that you were thinking of doing this as a system parallel to the existing one simply to resolve the "no free slots" issue. It sounded like it was a wholesale change to the system (incompatible with some actions, as indicated above).

I can see how this makes that part of the item management more efficient.

Adding a new mode to the primary interface is actually a rather time-consuming task.

[Sylverone]

I'll chime in to say I tried the same thing when I was starting out. It might make sense to do this when all slots are full but it might seem inconsistent that this method of swapping won't work when there are empty slots. If I have four Weapon slots but only one contains a component, I would be forced to use the original shortcut or mouse anyway or fill up my slots (using a lot of matter and/or affecting my speed), if I even knew those commands yet.

Really goofy idea, but i just thought of swapping by pressing shift-letter and then ctrl-number, but that seems kind of silly from a design perspective.

[zxc]

So the assumption here is that you only swap like this when there are no free slots. I didn't get that you were thinking of doing this as a system parallel to the existing one simply to resolve the "no free slots" issue.

Right, this is exactly what I am referring to. No new modes or sweeping changes - just a prompt for which item to replace when there are no free slots. It didn't sound like we were on the same wavelength before but we are now. 

It might make sense to do this when all slots are full but it might seem inconsistent that this method of swapping won't work when there are empty slots.

I didn't even consider this, but yes, I see now that this means you'd still keep the current Ctrl-Shift mode to swap items in that scenario (though I would personally just drop the equipped item and attach the new one).

[Kyzrati]

Yeah, makes sense to me. Not something for Alpha 2, but I'd like to be able to add this.

Really goofy idea, but i just thought of swapping by pressing shift-letter and then ctrl-number, but that seems kind of silly from a design perspective.

Except that Shift-letter opens the item information

[Kyzrati]

A couple days ago I was thinking over this and came up with The Ultimate Solution^TM. Since this feature would implicitly call for another mode anyway, why not just go all out and turn it into a flexible explicit swap mode?

The idea is you'll press '/' to enter "swap mode", in which you can press single number keys and letter keys to swap parts both between slots and between the inventory and attached parts. You can execute as many of these as you want, then press '/' again (or Escape) to exit the mode.

So something this would be quick and easy, no modifiers required:
/ - enter mode
1 - select inventory item
f - swap with attached part
3 - select another inventory item
g - swap with another attached part
/ - exit mode

[zxc]

A couple days ago I was thinking over this and came up with The Ultimate Solution^TM. Since this feature would implicitly call for another mode anyway, why not just go all out and turn it into a flexible explicit swap mode?

The idea is you'll press '/' to enter "swap mode", in which you can press single number keys and letter keys to swap parts both between slots and between the inventory and attached parts. You can execute as many of these as you want, then press '/' again (or Escape) to exit the mode.

So something this would be quick and easy, no modifiers required:
/ - enter mode
1 - select inventory item
f - swap with attached part
3 - select another inventory item
g - swap with another attached part
/ - exit mode

Yes please! Though this would make me wish even more for remappable keys (or macros - I guess autohotkey is OK for this) since something like numpad 0 would be ideal for me. Still, I would use the hell out of this feature.

What about when you try to equip something off the ground and your equipment slots and inventory are full? I still think a prompt for which item to replace - or no prompt if there's only one option - would be a good addition to the game as well.

[Kyzrati]

Yes please! Though this would make me wish even more for remappable keys (or macros - I guess autohotkey is OK for this) since something like numpad 0 would be ideal for me. Still, I would use the hell out of this feature.

Well, we're not using Numpad 0 yet, so I could add that as an alternative for you.

What about when you try to equip something off the ground and your equipment slots and inventory are full? I still think a prompt for which item to replace - or no prompt if there's only one option - would be a good addition to the game as well.

I'll think about it. With unlimited time I'd surely do this, but it would be somewhat involved, not a behavior we'd necessarily want to have on by default, and would require implementing a new type of drag-drop feature such that that form of mouse input would be capable of the same thing.

[zxc]

Yes please! Though this would make me wish even more for remappable keys (or macros - I guess autohotkey is OK for this) since something like numpad 0 would be ideal for me. Still, I would use the hell out of this feature.

Well, we're not using Numpad 0 yet, so I could add that as an alternative for you.

What about when you try to equip something off the ground and your equipment slots and inventory are full? I still think a prompt for which item to replace - or no prompt if there's only one option - would be a good addition to the game as well.

I'll think about it. With unlimited time I'd surely do this, but it would be somewhat involved, not a behavior we'd necessarily want to have on by default, and would require implementing a new type of drag-drop feature such that that form of mouse input would be capable of the same thing.

I see... If it's that involved then I agree it's not the best use of time for now.

0 as an alternative would be cool, but I don't want special treatment. That said, we should try to find out how keyboard-mode players prefer to play. If most people are like me and rest the left hand around wasd/tab and the right hand on the numpad, then it would be good to optimise default keybindings so that minimal hand movement is necessary.

Now that I think about it some more, I'd probably move my right hand to hit some letters for equipping the item, and so / would work fine.

Unrelated question: does tab do anything right now? Outside of switching between targets in fire/examine mode? Maybe if it were a shortcut to volley/hit nearest enemy...

[Kyzrati]

0 as an alternative would be cool, but I don't want special treatment. That said, we should try to find out how keyboard-mode players prefer to play. If most people are like me and rest the left hand around wasd/tab and the right hand on the numpad, then it would be good to optimise default keybindings so that minimal hand movement is necessary.

Now that I think about it some more, I'd probably move my right hand to hit some letters for equipping the item, and so / would work fine.

I don't mind adding duplicate bindings where they help and make some sense, e.g. in this case having a swap key accessible on the Numpad. However, on second thought it would make even more sense to use Numpad '/' instead of '0' (so, both basically the same key). Another reason for having a secondary numpad key for the same action is to help non-US layout keyboard users who may not be able to easily access certain characters.

When thinking of the '/' I did figure it's a good candidate being close to alphanumerics, though.

About the "how keyboard-mode players prefer to play" I can say there will be no pleasing everyone because there are a number of hardcore players using vi-keys. This is one reason numpad keys are best left as only secondary options, because some players' hands never even travel way over there.

Unrelated question: does tab do anything right now? Outside of switching between targets in fire/examine mode? Maybe if it were a shortcut to volley/hit nearest enemy...

You mean go straight into targeting mode and fire? Seems kind of excessive, since you can just tap 'f' twice for the same effect, and more importantly dangerous, since you might overlook one closer enemy while looking at another. Then there is also the question of handling equidistant targets, whether unarmed robots count, etc. This could always copy the behavior of your standard firing preferences, but I find even that doesn't always turn out exactly as you intended, so it's nice to first check the line of fire and make sure, even if it's just for 100ms while you glance at the line and make sure everything's okay, like no obstructions.

I think we can save that key for something else later. (But yeah, right now it's just for switching between objects.)

[zxc]

Numpad / is an excellent idea. I like that very much.

The tab attack suggestion was based mainly on how useful it is in DCSS but perhaps combat is more deliberate in this game, and so tab attack is not necessary.

By the way, a small sound when you take a screenshot could be nice.

Also, do you think a way to generate an infosheet of a char in progress (similar to the morgue but with less info) is a good idea? It could make sharing char info online easier as you'd just paste that.

[Kyzrati]

By the way, a small sound when you take a screenshot could be nice.

Ah yes some feedback for that would be good.

Also, do you think a way to generate an infosheet of a char in progress (similar to the morgue but with less info) is a good idea? It could make sharing char info online easier as you'd just paste that.

This is planned, along with even bigger better things of a similar nature/purpose, they're just not very high priority right now.