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Author Topic: Balance Overhaul  (Read 34528 times)

mtf

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2020, 02:35:39 PM »

I think there's been more than one mention of weird 0x3 memery at this point with the implication that they're not great so all's fine, so I think it's worth reaffirming that one of the main balance issues with current storage & weight is that e.g. 0x1 treads is oppressively good, with Hcp. you are almost forced into playing with BIG inventories and slower treads because of how good its interaction with 0x1 is.

If the issue isn't with builds carrying too much storage and being really overweight but is instead builds that are slightly overweight carrying too much storage, then it seems to me that the perfect fix is to adjust overweight penalties. Just throwing some numbers out here, but if you're currently 0x1 on treads and only 180 speed, perhaps you should actually be 200 or even 220 speed instead. This goes along with "incentivizing builds to be underweight" much more than just forcing them to use less storage. Overall if I want to make my build into a hauler I should be able to, even if the penalties of doing so are very great.
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Tone

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2020, 05:08:05 PM »

Some thoughts on storage overhaul proposals:

Why I'm not in favor of no_stack proposals: This removes almost all of the current nuance to storage utility decisions, and reduces it down to a few simple options.  As much as we think people are using too much storage currently, when people share their builds I actually see a lot of build variety between speed, propulsion slots, storage slots, and inventory capacity.  With no_stack we will be limited to only a few options with little flexibility.  With no_stack you lose the ability to add storage temporarily in cases where you might want a few additional inventory slots at the cost of equipping armor or such, for maybe half a floor until it is no longer needed.  With limited inventory you lose some ability to make a planned future transition, perhaps by carrying some alternate propulsion until the time is right.  And as already mentioned, the no_stack proposal removes the balance between utility slots spent on storage vs utilities (which is something that doesn't only apply to storage, all of the utilities you find are always competing for your slots).

For any proposals that increase mass or decrease inventory capacity, keep in mind that most players seem to use multiple storage units, so any changes will have a cumulative impact.  Small changes will be multiplied by two or three on most builds.  Doubling storage mass feels a bit too far to me.  A 64 mass hcp storage unit for +8 inventory slots seems like something people should never use.  If we want to increase storage mass I'd start at 25-50% max, depending on how harshly we want to penalize it. For sml/med/lrg/hcp storage units, this yields values of 5/10/20/40 or 6/12/24/48 mass at 25% and 50% respectively.

Quote
If you don't double the masses, I'm not sure combat even notices.
I personally already feel pressure from current storage masses and they influence my decisions.  I currently don't like running hcp storage on legs.  I was playing a wheel build yesterday and was using lrg instead of hcp because it represented a worthwhile increase in speed.  Not everyone plays extremely slow high-storage builds, and doing so comes with downsides. 
One of the issues causing this storage perception is how it factors into the treads meta, where you effectively double your mass for a relatively small decrease in speed.  Consider this: If you have two pairs of hvy. treads equipped for 140 total support (a very common treads build), and you go overweight by some amount, let's say 150/140 -- you now have 130 additional support to use at no cost.  Of course you'll want to upgrade all of your lrg storage to hcp.  The actual mass/support numbers here aren't important, the fact is that once you get to the point where you need to go overweight or are comfortable with it, you suddenly gain *a lot* of additional support to spend.  Other propulsion types feel changes in mass at much more gradual intervals and often at steeper penalties.  This is why I'd like to see how an increased treads overweight penalty would impact gameplay.  Other propulsion types already have a lot more to consider when changing mass (and storage), but when treads hit OX1 there is suddenly a wealth of additional support to fill.

With this in mind, the proposal to make overweight bonuses apply at smaller intervals is an interesting one (although perhaps a complicated one).  I'm starting to like more and more the idea of further incentives to staying at Ox0, through changes like the increased overweight penalties on treads and the Ox0 leg perks that have been discussed.  Overweight penalties on legs may also need a look.  Maybe even increase support values of some prop but also increasing overweight penalties to achieve this.  Wheels' niche could remain being a prop with small overweight penalty.  Flight and hover are already heavily penalized for being overweight, with large speed penalties, loss of evasion bonuses, and -- in flight's case -- the loss of the hopping special ability.

At a glance, underweight bonuses feel a bit awkward to me, assuming they are consistent with how current overweight level is tracked.  Currently while underweight you gain speed, trap avoidance, and stasis resistance.  To gain additional underweight bonuses you'd have to evolve more prop slots compared to current builds.  And wheels will never be underweight if you are playing seriously.  This might also behave oddly at extremely low mass, or on core hover.  I guess I'm open to ideas but it doesn't seem needed -- we can't even get most people to stay at Ox0 currently :P

By the way, I find wheels to be most effective when you use them in the ~120-150 speed range.  You don't have to run them at 250+ speed and 300 mass; and being massively overweight is not their niche, it's just one thing they happen to be capable of.

And a final closing thought based on some of the storage and hacking propsoals I've seen on here and on discord:  I don't know how others feel about this, but I think Cogmind -- overall -- is for the most part reasonably balanced and quite fun.  I'd be very careful about making any large overhauls to fundamental parts of the gameplay experience. 


The shroud of balance has fallen... Begun, the nerf wars, have.

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zxc

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2020, 11:17:54 PM »

And a final closing thought based on some of the storage and hacking propsoals I've seen on here and on discord:  I don't know how others feel about this, but I think Cogmind -- overall -- is for the most part reasonably balanced and quite fun.  I'd be very careful about making any large overhauls to fundamental parts of the gameplay experience. 

Agree with this. But we can talk about crazy things without committing to them.
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GJ

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2020, 02:13:11 AM »

Quote
I don't know how others feel about this, but I think Cogmind -- overall -- is for the most part reasonably balanced and quite fun.  I'd be very careful about making any large overhauls to fundamental parts of the gameplay experience.
Far as I can tell Cogmind has never been a well-balanced game, which of course is something you can say about the vast majority of them. Getting the balance right is inevitably a grind for more complex games. On the whole Cogmind's balance and nuance has improved over time, and players urging the dev to be careful as a general rule seems counterproductive, devs of a proper game that they've put a ton of effort into are already predisposed to that bias. This is merely my own interpretation, but there's already precedence of that attitude from the playerbase slowing down work on the game that ended up happening anyway, mainly relating to nerfs that happened to flight and hackware stacking. Some of those changes are fairly old at this point, and the retrospective on them does not tell a tale of the game's build variety shattering without proper recompense, even if you can no longer assimilate bots via what's now known as machine-hackware. That used to be a fundamental aspect of the game and of build flexibility, even treads builds could put on a bit of temporary hackware to assimilate/reboot a sentry in addition to hitting up access(branch) on terminals, perhaps to safely plasma cut them for hvy. armor plating.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 02:18:38 AM by GJ »
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Pimski

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2020, 06:56:15 AM »

I didn't read through all other comments in detail yet (damn, what a wall of text :P) but there's a couple of things I want to add that I think haven't been mentioned yet.

Quote
walls don't cave-in, and dirt can cave-in at any time (checked per turn and per move)

I'm very much against further nerfs that reduce the available options to dig completely without risk.
Digging is a very necessary strategy at many points in the game. To name a few instances, think of dodging behemoths in caves on a flight build, getting SHELL from the SHELL lab, digging into the Q exit prefab, etcetera. There are a decent number of instances where it feels like digging is the only appropriate response. For many of the more fragile builds, risking a cavein is risking instantly losing three or four items, which is often the same thing as instantly losing the run.

If I'm four hours into a run and my build gets squashed by a 5% chance cavein risk I couldn't reasonably have argued to not take, that's not fun.

Caveins as a mechanic should serve the purpose of disincentivizing unreasonable digging behavior. I think this goal is quite succesfully achieved already under the old system. Regardless of any flaws that the old cavein mechanics have, if they're changed I would put this as a minimal requirement: reasonable digging behavior should be completely safe, or at the very least should not have a (grantedly small) chance to disproportionally punish the player.



Thoughts on storage nerfs:
Just to add my two cents; I feel like on flight, storage is already reasonably balanced. There is a real trade-off when managing storage units. Mass for flight is super relevant. Think for example how SHELL got nerfed by ten mass, and now its only very rarely worth it to equip on flight builds, while before it was absolutely amazing. Utility slots as well are a difficult-to-manage resource. Spending extra utility slots on storage disallows you from using them for extra hackware or extra damage reduction, which both translate pretty much directly into less build-power for flight-hack and flying brick respectively.

The current system creates interesting decisions. I often find myself running flight builds that have severely reduced direct potency, for the tradeoff of being able to carry the parts I need later. This is a prime example of frontloading the difficulty to get later rewards, which is something I love about cogmind. I personally see no reason to change storage mechanics or balance when purely considering flight builds.

An argument could be made that storage needs to be nerfed because of the very extreme high-storage examples of combat builds that run amok, but I'm no expert on those so I can't really comment on their balance.
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GJ

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2020, 10:53:18 AM »

Yeah, I think the purpose of even small cave-in risks is so that players won't take those risks with any strong consistency, it's an emergency maneuver. Of course there is the exception where tanky builds without extremely valuable low-integrity processors don't mind cave-in damage.
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dodging behemoths in caves on a flight build, getting SHELL from the SHELL lab, digging into the Q exit prefab, etcetera.
But there's various ways for flight to deal with cave Behemoths and SHELL Lab without any digging. I know a good variety of them from experience, because sometimes I like to pretend that the games I play are already good instead of devolving to simple play patterns that shouldn't be possible/reasonable. To me this sound like you don't know those methods and have not thought much about them because of how easy and straightforward the tunnel strat is. I should be concrete here, so some off the top of my head are off-turn spotting, gui./hyp. baiting, drones/allies, ECM, recall(reinforcements), sheer ridiculous speed.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 11:00:55 AM by GJ »
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mtf

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2020, 11:52:10 AM »

Yeah, I think the purpose of even small cave-in risks is so that players won't take those risks with any strong consistency, it's an emergency maneuver. Of course there is the exception where tanky builds without extremely valuable low-integrity processors don't mind cave-in damage.
Quote
dodging behemoths in caves on a flight build, getting SHELL from the SHELL lab, digging into the Q exit prefab, etcetera.
But there's various ways for flight to deal with cave Behemoths and SHELL Lab without any digging. I know a good variety of them from experience, because sometimes I like to pretend that the games I play are already good instead of devolving to simple play patterns that shouldn't be possible/reasonable. To me this sound like you don't know those methods and have not thought much about them because of how easy and straightforward the tunnel strat is. I should be concrete here, so some off the top of my head are off-turn spotting, gui./hyp. baiting, drones/allies, ECM, recall(reinforcements), sheer ridiculous speed.

Just to go through those available options...

1) Off-turn spotting: often leads to actually being spotted and getting shot, inviting attrition or (everyone's favorite) getting an important utility shot off (noooo my sensors!)
2) Gui. / Hyp Baiting: Can be effective but often causes the enemy you're shooting to call out to other friends, has to be done carefully. Also I want to bring up the SHELL lab specifically where doing this will 100% get you scanned now.
3) Drones / Allies: Very effective, but you don't always have either of these... and maintaining allies on a flight build often does not work out well, since you are so much faster than them... you spend a lot of turns waiting for them to catch up to you.
4) ECM: Adv. and below is great in caves (unless you have thieves) and pretty good in 0b10, but can sometimes screw you if you didn't put enough distance between you and the enemy bots before activating and waiting. Exp. ECM is fantastic and very useful for the described situations.
5) Recall(reinforcements): This does not help with the enemy density that already exists on the floor... It simply acts as a way to correct mistakes you've made (like getting spotted by operators or attacking haulers / engis). Don't see how this helps in any of the above situations (other than maybe SHELL lab, but you're going to get scanned if you attack that researcher through the door).
6) Sheer ridiculous speed: Probably the most effective thing here, but this doesn't help with areas you are locked out of, like the SHELL lab.

I think the point is that every single one of these tools invites more shots being fired at you, which feels a lot like Bricc strategy... whereas digging fits better into the stealth style of gameplay. There are also several situations (like SHELL lab) where digging is your only effective means of countering whatever challenge the situation poses (I know you can disable the researcher with RIF, but we're talking about flight here, ok). While I admit the recent dig nerf has grown on me due to 3 tile digging still being possible via cannons (effectively meaning stealth just has to use a different dig tool now), I strongly oppose the proposed nerf of making all earth tiles possible to cave-in. Like pimski said, it doesn't sound like fun to have my run thrown due to a 5% cave-in chance destroying my builds most important items when that dig was one of the only ways to deal with a certain situation.
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GJ

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2020, 12:26:35 PM »

That just sounds like fun variance & nuance rather than EZ PZ cheezy perfect gameplay. It's fine for flight and stealth builds to get shot at times, the infowar etc. still prevents a ton of that and doesn't need to be omnipotent. It's fine for you to rarely lose stuff and need to reacquire them or rebuild, let it happen, don't latch on to a familiarity for OP builds as how Cogmind runs are supposed to go. Your build doesn't need to be a VCR-brick even once stealth strats become actually fun, zxc and I have run all sorts of fragile stuff that isn't actually reliant on digs being (strongly/often) possible.

You probably aren't aware of how easily Researchers die (or lose their scanner) because you've never had to roll for those kills. Sneak attacks with 1 melee weapon, a full volley of EM... not all melee/EM setups can do it consistently but it's an easy-ish threshold to meet and it's not like getting scanned ends your run. Again, fun variance, it's fine if it's rare. I have several runs with 7+ dead Researchers and no scan. The SHELL Lab is a rather easy event in that the door terminal has like a sec-1 Open on it, and in addition to that terminal there's another one right there with regen schematics. You can use either for recall(reinforcements) on the squad that immediately gets called for opening the door.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 12:28:55 PM by GJ »
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mtf

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2020, 02:10:39 PM »

You probably aren't aware of how easily Researchers die (or lose their scanner) because you've never had to roll for those kills.

I recently lost a game on stream where there was a Researcher guarding the door to the S7 cache... I was on treads and didn't have enough hacking to open the door. I tried to use FLK to assimilate the researcher, and it missed. It had a 95% chance PLUS the 10% targeting bonus (which I know doesn't get added on), and yet I still missed... and getting scanned in s7 definitely caused the loss of the run, as I was in no way prepared to deal with trackers. So yes, I have had to roll for those kills, and losing the roll does not feel good in the slightest. I don't think a 5% chance to end my run is fun, and looking back I probably shouldn't have even attempted to enter due to my situation. I don't think I'd ever attempt a sneak attack, a volley of EM, or any of the options you suggested without being prepared to deal with trackers... going for those options while unprepared is a good way to immediately throw a run.

Also, the reason I mentioned the SHELL lab was specifically b/c of that researcher. The reinforcements he calls aren't relevant for the reasons you mentioned, what is relevant is getting inside without getting scanned.
 I'll admit this was a bigger issue in the past when getting scanned in Q meant getting intercept squads, but I still don't like the gamefeel of having to take chances to luck out on a researcher kill. It's too RNG, not enough control over it given to the player, and unlike other RNG mechanics like killing DM it makes your run quite a bit more difficult if you fail (though I will agree that Q series are not the end of the world). I much prefer the stealth feel here utilizing digging, it's very satisfying to be able to get to the items you want while keeping a low profile amongst the 0b10 bots, and you can tailor that in a way that you don't accidently provoke researcher wrath.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 02:14:22 PM by mtf »
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GJ

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2020, 04:00:29 PM »

We discussed the viability and numbers of this in Discord, but I'll summarize here too for consistency.

Because of max accuracy cap on ranged attacks, you definitely want more than one weapon or perhaps even EM launchers. It's an instance where despite FLK being very powerful it's not good for that specifically. If 5% was the lowest failure rate you could get then maybe that feels bad, though probably fine for SHELL specifically even at that number, ultimately the %s aren't that bad though, and the sort of RNG where you have to roll for it or avoid the risk entirely after failing a door hack is quite fine I think. I suspect Researchers are right around as killable as they should be.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 04:10:06 PM by GJ »
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zxc

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2020, 09:27:53 PM »

What if you didn't get scanned instantly? It seems too extreme for a single turn. What if the scanning process took two or three turns, and was persistent across scans (so if you get scanned for one turn in two separate researcher incidents, you get scan confirmed)?

This is also within the scope of balance discussions.
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GJ

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2020, 04:14:38 AM »

I think it's important that you do get scanned occasionally, and a delay would mean that it kinda can't happen while you have a reconstructor in inventory. So you'd need to get hit by a stasis projector twice, which I think would make the scan much rarer than currently. I guess it would mean you get one free aggro at the cost of being forced to tele, then you have to play as you would currently.
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zxc

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2020, 10:15:18 AM »

Perhaps if you anger one researcher but get away, he alerts all the researchers on the floor and they all become hostile.
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Pimski

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2020, 04:14:13 AM »

To respond to GJ's comments; I personally think trying to argue balance from the standpoint that cavein chance is low isn't great.

Balancing an instantly game-losing scenario by making the chance for it to occur low seems like a bad approach. If the expected return is still higher than the risk, people will take the option regardless. Then, when you win the roll, the fact that something horrible could have happened is completely irrelevant, and the risk might as well not have been there. And if you lose the roll you're back to the frustrating scenario where you lost a long run purely due to rng.

The real problem here imo stems not from the chance of low-rolling, but from the severity of the consequences. If the consequences of taking the risk are less extreme, you get a more nuanced decision.

Regarding the cases discussed in this thread, for fragile flight builds, things like getting scanned or getting a cavein are very much on the instant loss side of things. Maybe not necessarily for purposes of w0. But for extended or score runs those things are extremely terrible.

To relate back to the mechanic of digging; Suppose completely safe digging got removed (e.g. by making all dirt tiles have a chance to collapse). Then it would be way more fun to have a large probability of sustaining minor consequences from digging than it would be to have a minimal chance for catastrophic consequences. And by adjusting the probability and severity of the consequences we can still make it so that the total damage received per number of tiles dug is the same in the limit case where the player keeps on digging ad infinitum.

...I hope I'm phrasing that in a way that makes sense.

EDIT: phrasing
« Last Edit: October 01, 2020, 12:20:20 PM by Pimski »
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GJ

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2020, 05:19:06 PM »

Quote
instantly game-losing scenario
Pimski, I know you've played Infra Arcana. When the White Spider gives you the bad touch and rolls its 50% paralysis proc for 2 turns and keeps chaining paralysis until you're dead, that's an insta-loss interaction. Even that extreme of an interaction happens to be fair due to various additional nuances, like the fact that there's tells for a spider/summon being in the vicinity, the fact that you tend to have a dynamite/molotov/debuff in inventory... IA is largely a fair game because it only forces you to gamble on "and then you died" interactions once you've burned through your resources, and good play can preserve those. It is somewhat more extreme about such things than the average RL, but that also makes it exciting.

Cogmind is explicitly designed for even horrendous part loss and misplay to be recoverable into a win, which for a roguelike is probably too forgiving, but certainly runs should still be loseable. You should not only be capable of failing to get past w0, it should be possible for you to outright die. Cogmind does not force you to gamble on tunnels from turn 0, and you tend to have more time to modify your inventory & equipped (cave-in-able) items prior to tunneling than when a White Spider is rushing you. If a flight build aggroes everything on the map and can't cleanly and with certainty get to an exit due to lack of perfect play, then the exciting gamble on a potentially devastating dig actually losing you the run is to be welcomed. Losing runs due to a sequence of decisions made relative to RNG is I think the point of roguelikes.

Scans being extremely terrible for ++ is not equivalent to instant loss and still seems like an exaggeration with the former phrasing, the scan inherently happens in a place with very powerful items. I've failed to kill a Researcher on a flight build and still got ++, I believe reconstructors were involved. Intercepts are inherently low on the scariness-scale in a game with TRs, unless you see tons of them before making it into the endgame, which is also rather unlikely, you'd have to lowroll both on where the exit is and where you end up post-TR.

A part of your argument is that the likelihood of a cave-in should be higher, which I would agree with, it's probably inherently more satisfying when you're gambling on a 20% than a 4% or whatever. At some point you call the bluff of cave-ins and currently your walk-of-faiths just keep succeeding run after run. However I don't agree that cave-in damage should be even more tankable than it currently is, the game does have force fields and shieldings after all. I suspect maximum fun is achieved when a walk-of-faith has a ~28% chance to do anything to you, and a cave-in does on average 4x more damage than currently. Cave-in damage has sort of fallen behind with increased integrity on prop and all sorts of additional help in the early game, maybe it would be a bit extreme for flight, but you can always equip one of your better flight units and an engine from inventory after a cave-in, and flight is sort of a niche, extreme-end build that shouldn't hold back the balance of the game in general. Flight will always find some way to win that's annoyingly clean and beautiful, you don't need to design the game around it.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2020, 05:21:16 PM by GJ »
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Pimski

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2020, 09:23:59 AM »

You do make some fair points. I can see why you would be in favor of more harsh and stricter rules as a way to create more of a challenge for the player. In fact, I'm very much in favor as well of making cogmind more challenging in general. However, not every type of difficulty is equally fun and challenging in my opinion.

I find it hard to meaningfully continue the argument because I think in the end it boils down to personal preference. I want to have fun playing cogmind. In my previous comment I tried to explain why I think caveins can be un-fun, and making them more harsh would be even more un-fun. Beyond this, I feel like there is very little I can say on the issue.

I have indeed played infra arcana, and I did think it was a fun game, but I enjoyed it for different reasons than the ones that make me enjoy cogmind. While the parallel is insightful in the sense that it helps me understand your point of view, I don't really see it as an argument for the proposed change.

On a side note, I dislike this format of posting on forums. It feels a lot harder to express myself and to meaningfully engage in discussion. I would personally prefer to just use discord... :(

P.S: One thing that also comes to mind in this context is the difference between challenge and difficulty. It is not necessarily the case that all changes that make the game more difficult also make it more challenging. Take for example the naked core challenge run. Such a run is undeniably extremely difficult; you have far less tools to work with than in a normal game. But, on the other hand, the decision space is much smaller. At any point in the game, only a handful of options is relevant. This makes the number of decisions you have to make smaller, and each individual decision easier, if not less impactful.

The reason I bring this up is that I think additional difficulty should only be introduced insofar as it makes the game more challenging. This challenging aspect is part of what makes the game fun. While the proposed changes to caveins clearly make the game harder, I don't think they lead to new or more interesting decisions. I guess that's the crux of why I'm opposed to the changes.

I hope that sort of makes sense. Feel free to hit me up on discord if you want to discuss further. Writing these feels like too much of a chore though. :P
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Kyzrati

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2020, 12:23:12 AM »

Some takeaways on mass/support/storage:
-underweight bonus is awkward and probably best avoided
-no_stack seems to have basically no support
-smaller intervals for overweight modifiers will probably help things balance out better at the heavy/treads end (even though it might complicate things, which is what the current system was trying to avoid in the first place, but whatever, we'll see)
-maybe somewhat increased mass on storage units, and increased overweight penalties for some prop, will be warranted, and those can be tweaked as little or as much as necessary

Takeaway on digging:
-there's clearly a lot of contention on the potential for a more extreme nerf here... (I'm curious about the results of MTF's recent run aimed at testing dig-free flight/stealth)

What if you didn't get scanned instantly? It seems too extreme for a single turn. What if the scanning process took two or three turns, and was persistent across scans (so if you get scanned for one turn in two separate researcher incidents, you get scan confirmed)?

This is also within the scope of balance discussions.
Researchers would be a pushover if they're nerfed. I see them as quite balanced.

The reason I bring this up is that I think additional difficulty should only be introduced insofar as it makes the game more challenging. This challenging aspect is part of what makes the game fun. While the proposed changes to caveins clearly make the game harder, I don't think they lead to new or more interesting decisions. I guess that's the crux of why I'm opposed to the changes.
Huh, that's interesting because I would've thought the opposite, including for all the reasons GJ stated earlier. If digging currently trivializes a lot of potential dangers (as it clearly does), then removing that option (or requiring that it be a gamble, anyway) forces you to deal with a variety of different scenarios using whatever other options you can think of, and deal with potential consequences of those options, rather than just... digging around everything.

I mean sure, you can still dig when you think the alternative is simply too dangerous, but otherwise you're going to have to be figuring out how to utilize a bunch of other tricks to stay alive.

The alternative is to basically create challenges very directed at fast builds that are also just digging around to avoid trouble.

On a side note, I dislike this format of posting on forums. It feels a lot harder to express myself and to meaningfully engage in discussion. I would personally prefer to just use discord...
Yeah each place as its uses, although forums are much better for taking the time to articulate points, and also ensure they're actually able to be easily referenced by those interested in the topic, including me :P

I can't catch or participate in everything on Discord, but if it gets said here, it gets read and I take it into consideration.

Like it's a holiday here so I've been out for most of the past few days, and there's no way I'm going to be able to read all the discussion that's been happening across the Discord channels (bloated with a lot of other talk, too), but I can totally set aside enough time to check out everything that's been happening in this thread and take it in!
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zxc

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2020, 09:20:08 AM »

I've switched to the side of mass increase for storage units, but I think no_stack is OK too. Either way, I think some kind of change to storage is in order.

Smaller intervals or some other system for overweight penalty might work if they don't overcomplicate the game.

I maintain that the digging nerf I suggested is not all extreme. It's a small adjustment only. I think people who are against it right now perhaps don't realise how minor the change would be.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2020, 04:29:03 PM »

I maintain that the digging nerf I suggested is not all extreme. It's a small adjustment only. I think people who are against it right now perhaps don't realise how minor the change would be.
Well it doesn't seem minor to players claiming that such a change would basically stop them from ever digging at all! (Unless that's what you mean--agreeing that digging isn't essential for any play styles?)

On that note, I dropped by MTF's stream yesterday after he'd completed his dig-less stealth run to get feedback on how that went, and as predicted above he seemed to agree it was both more challenging and filled with more interesting decisions.

Maybe he'll drop by to personally share more of his account here, but I heard he lost (and regained) sensors and some hackware a few times throughout the run, ran into other difficulties, and still ended up getting a great extended win.

It's only one piece of evidence so far, but sounds promising.
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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2020, 05:08:54 PM »

(Was writing this up and Kyz beat me to posting xD)

Since my digless flight hover run concluded in absolute victory, I wanted to share some of my thoughts about the proposed digging changes...
When digging is not available:

1) Emergency access doors are way more important, as are things to discover them, like terrain scanning / structural scanners / emergency doors hacks / derelict log intel. Finding some emergency doors could meant the difference between getting spotted by multiple squads or remaining completely invisible.

2) The full infowar package is much more powerful... Cloaking is way more useful for avoiding detection against the more numerous squads you will be forced to rush past, and ECM suites are more useful for losing their aggro once you pull it.

3) Due to the increased number of times you will be spotted, part attrition is much higher... things like sensors / terrain scanners are going to be shot off much more frequently. This does lead to more tedious micro management of infowar <-> defense util swapping since you'll be switching between stealth and bricc modes more often.

4) Gui. weapons and other diversionary tactics are much more powerful since they are sometimes the only way to clear out a congested choke point.

5) Caves felt more interesting due to increased confrontation with enemies.

Overall, the game felt quite a bit more challenging, but not so challenging that it was overly frustrating. I really enjoyed getting to use some of the currently lesser-used stealth utilities to great effect, the benefits they offer are much more impactful when you can't just dig around your enemies. I think I've come to like the idea of nerfing digging even further, and since digless probably shouldn't be the standard style of game play, maybe what zxc has proposed (walls don't cave-in, earth tiles always might) would make sense after all.

PS: Here's a link to the three VODS that made up the run... it's quite a ride =)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/760903939
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/760904512
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/760906032
« Last Edit: October 04, 2020, 05:23:34 PM by mtf »
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GJ

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2020, 07:43:32 PM »

I watched practically all of MTF's run, and would like to state two conclusions:

1) Safe 1-tile digs seem somewhat necessary for stealth runs to feel fun, at least in the current state of the game. I know MTF enjoyed their run a lot, some of that fun probably comes from doing a unique challenge for the first time... while the run had a ton of interesting moments it was also clear that at times the lack of 1-tile digs specifically was crippling to the stealth approach, tilting play unusually much towards killing squads or tanking damage as you run past them. A bit of that is very welcome, I don't think stealth builds should consistently avoid getting shot at all, arguably items like Phase Shifter and Rocket Array are to some extent stealth items too, in that their resource cost is much easier to manage if you only interact with squads occasionally. But if that's too frequent then it reduces variety and gets old.

2) 3-tile digs are not necessary for stealth strats to consistently achieve ++, they are probably not necessary for such strats to feel fun, and if they are a gamble then that is already sufficient to introduce some of the variety and fun that was seen in the digless run. In terms of micromanagment multi-tile digs are also a lot more annoying than single-tile ones, so while I enjoy how the current dig nerf works I am ever more in favor of W-E-W not being safe whether you do it with a cannon or melee weapon.

A brief comment on storage: I like no_stack more than other solutions, I like changes to overweight status much more than increasing storage unit mass across the board. Some increase to mass is perhaps warranted given the extent to which average support for hover and treads has skyrocketed, staying 0x0 on hover is very easy, but you could also target that prop directly rather than messing with the balance of low-support builds and their ability to satisfyingly utilize storage units from haulers.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2020, 08:02:05 PM by GJ »
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zxc

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2020, 09:39:30 PM »

Note again that MTF's digless run is still a challenge run even after proposed nerfs, because 1-tile and 2-tile digs would still be possible post-nerf, and I would argue that they are more common than 3-tile digs. Smaller digs are important for mobility, if not outright stealth. A 3-tile dig is more like a bypass of a sequence of corridors and rooms. As emergency access passages are a lot of fun, maybe they could be made more common in conjunction with this dig change?

One major point in no_stack's favour is that it frees up slots for other utils (and consequently potentially freeing slots for other slot types). It definitely takes the emphasis off storage, which is perhaps a good thing, as storage isn't actually a type of part that contributes to interesting gameplay or build variety in the present.

We could perhaps have more storage units, such as the Mini Storage Unit, or the Super High Capacity Storage Unit, to fill out the spectrum more. The benefit of capping inventory size and taking the focus off storage units is still there.

Kyzrati mentioned that no_stack would require integrity buffs across the board, but that's not how I pictured it. Stealth builds should cope similarly to now, or would even be buffed. Combat would have fewer spare parts, but this would be offset by the extra slot(s). I think you could get away with no other changes than adjusting storage units themselves.

edit: I remembered that the dig change also removes cave-in for walls. This could be used tactically and would definitely be a buff for combat. I picture more 'interesting' scenarios involving builders. Some potential for cheese involving penetrating weapons though.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2020, 09:43:02 PM by zxc »
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zxc

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2020, 09:57:56 AM »

I encouraged others to post but they aren't doing it. We had a short talk on discord about the (not new) idea of making caves one single large map instead of the two normal size ones now. A lot of people were fans (me, Sherlock, Raine, Tone). It's not a balance issue but it could definitely be fun.
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zxc

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2020, 11:51:43 AM »

Fielding an idea related to prop penalty. What if being overweight slowed you down in proportion to the percentage of support you were overweight by, according to a coefficient given by the penalty stat? That would result in a more gradual gradient of slowdown, a bit like wheels now. More granular. The coefficients would be set such that it would still not be a good deal to go overweight, but going slightly over would be playable.

E.g. penalty of 3.0x means if you are 50% overweight, you will be 3.0 * 50% = 150% slower.

This might be more intuitive and also introduce more nuance, while avoiding the awkward ramifications of 0x1 and 0x2 thresholds giving you a whole lot of support to work with minus additional consequences.

Trap chance and flight hopping could perhaps remain activated at the overweight edge for additional incentive to maintain a perfectly supported build.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2020, 11:54:22 AM by zxc »
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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2020, 11:21:12 AM »

I thought a while more about the proposed digging change as a result of the above discussion. I tried to explicitly list all the points in the game where I feel required to do multi-tile digs, and realized most of them are through reinforced walls rather than dirt. The most heavily impacted place is clearly caves, but whenever I steal I tend to have to run past enemies anyway, and this isn't instantly game-losing.

I suppose I don't object too strongly to the proposed change. It does certainly simplify things. Though if it gets implemented I would strongly prefer it if the recent melee digging nerfs were reverted. And perhaps if stealth gets impacted too heavily we could increase the number of secret doors as zxc suggested.
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