What reliable intel has pinpointed my location?

[Xii]

The game is saying "you're dead now, no explanation given". Trackers don't even show up on sensors. What is this reliable intel that has pinpointed my location? Why am I being murdered on a whim so INEXPLICABLY?

This isn't good game design. I have no information on what I supposedly did wrong, nor any information to avoid the trackers. Game's just, "hey, I'm randomly ending your run. Hope you had fun! Better luck next time!"

[Kyzrati]

This can't happen out of the blue, it's specifically because you did the optional thing which granted you godlike knowledge of 0b10. You didn't do anything wrong, just entered one of the optional super hard modes, perhaps by accident then?

It's true for this particular "mode" they don't tell you that's going to happen, though this is because there's no reasonable way to reveal it via lore. So far people have generally made the connection themselves. (There's also one other way to get that effect, but likewise there's a pretty obvious connection there--it never happens unless you do these major game-changing things.)

[Joshua]

(There's also one other way to get that effect, but likewise there's a pretty obvious connection there--it never happens unless you do these major game-changing things.)

I think there are actually at least three ways (?), in these locations:

Spoiler

DM
secret area
Research branches

[close]

[Kyzrati]

Research branches don't count though, because that's a different message--not the same wording (also there's a clearer direct connection).

[Xii]

I still don't get it. I didn't do anything out of the ordinary, i.e. run as usual. I've no godlike knowledge, what are you talking about? I'm doing a totally normal run as I've done many times, only this time, when I get to Research suddenly it all ends on a dice roll. Why? The game is literally insta-killing me with a random bolt of lightning off a clear sky.

[Via]

Strange. Because of your another post (awesome pacifist win), I think you know the core mechanism of Cogmind - Unless you mess with the world, it's calm. Well, at least, within the main floors. No illogic and almost everything is controllable. Would you tell about concrete situations?

[Joshua]

I still don't get it. I didn't do anything out of the ordinary, i.e. run as usual. I've no godlike knowledge, what are you talking about? I'm doing a totally normal run as I've done many times, only this time, when I get to Research suddenly it all ends on a dice roll. Why? The game is literally insta-killing me with a random bolt of lightning off a clear sky.

Could you share a scoresheet from one of these runs? It may explain why this is happening.

[Xii]

Strange. Because of your another post (awesome pacifist win), I think you know the core mechanism of Cogmind - Unless you mess with the world, it's calm. Well, at least, within the main branches. No illogic and almost everything is controllable. Would you tell about concrete situations?

Exactly, that's why I'm so stymied - nothing new for me this run, except this!

Outline of current run:

Spoiler

Pacifist going, tried to find Exiles in Mines but was forced to escape back to 0b10. First Lower Caves to Data Miner. Took a Chute in the Factory for more fabricator time. Second Lower Caves was headed to Zion, but turned back to 0b10. Grabbed Warlord's stash, main.c attacked as usual, got back to 0b10. Snuck through Armory and broke into Lab, decoy and all, stole stuff 'n slipped by security.

Then, having just arrived in Research, this happens. Few turns after the announcement, trackers show up and start disabling my pacifist stealth flight build. Saved and came here to complain.

Now, it's not technically totally game over yet, as I do have a teleport in my inventory, which could, with a super lucky roll, save my hide. Unlikely but possible.

[close]

Could you share a scoresheet from one of these runs? It may explain why this is happening.

Anything specific we're looking for? I have several pacifist wins, usually visiting almost all branches.

[Joshua]

This is probably why:

Spoiler

Snuck through Armory and broke into Lab, decoy and all, stole stuff 'n slipped by security.

[close]

Spoiler

There's more to getting scanned in Lab than just the security that shows up there.

[close]

[Kyzrati]

Yeah that'll do it.

Spoiler

Getting caught breaking into that place is... incredibly dangerous. Mega spoilers behind it, but only the best players take on that bunch (I am not among them xD).

[close]

[Xii]

Interesting... I present to you two failures:

The first one is a failure in scripting and AI to generate sensible story. In short, you took the quick and lazy way scripting this encounter; a global, unavoidable, dumb trigger that assumes everything and leaves no room for any creativity.

Here's the thing: I executed the perfect heist. Alert level was low security. I came in with three ally assassins as a decoy, and escaped unseen. From 0b10's perspective, the Derelicts broke in, security fought them out and no-one got caught.

The proper way to script this would be to send a special investigation to respond to the break-in, and tie punishment to getting caught by it. Investigators could patrol the next Research floor looking for the stolen items. And I know you can do this! Recycling already has those probes!

The second failure is of communication. It is absolutely not clear that this event is in response to that action. You must make it clear that this is the consequence of that. Like with the Exiles/thieves in your latest stream -- when the master thief finds you, he outright tells you he's there because you stole items.

...

I'm a bit bewildered and disappointed by the whole ordeal. I mean there's only a few items in there anyway, and visiting is only worth 1000 points. That's.. why I went there. For the points. Such a paltry amount for so many hours wasted now.

I really like Cogmind, I really do. But when it does shit like this, that I can only discover by trial and error, and wastes hours of my time, that I just... have to choose other stuff over it. Life's too short to waste it like this.

[Joshua]

I'm a bit bewildered and disappointed by the whole ordeal. I mean there's only a few items in there anyway, and visiting is only worth 1000 points. That's.. why I went there. For the points. Such a paltry amount for so many hours wasted now.

I really like Cogmind, I really do. But when it does shit like this, that I can only discover by trial and error, and wastes hours of my time, that I just... have to choose other stuff over it. Life's too short to waste it like this.

I, and probably many of the other players who know about it, learned about it when the consequence was only C. Progs being sent after -- still dangerous, but escapable for a flight build (and some would say the danger makes it fun). That's not really an option anymore except for maybe a very extreme flight build so I can sympathize with the frustration. On the other hand, the items there are in my opinion really only worth the risk for a combat build -- admittedly something you wouldn't know in advance, especially when Zh practically invites you to visit. I think the change to add trackers was a bit of an experiment, maybe Kyzrati will think of another way to keep combat players from farming intercepts without making flight quite so hard?

[Via]

Hmmm...

Spoiler

As the basic structure, I consider that entering any branch itself is a risk. It's like a trigger that turns relatively 'easy' main floors story into more challenging and exciting scenarios. For simpler instance, a raid always happens in W branch, but player's effort can't stop it. Strategy in there would be focused on how dealing with it rather than stopping it. Perhaps easiest workaround is to not go to W branch.
I guess this would be a matter of modulation. Good games recommend players to be creative in some situations and give players an absolute choice in others. I'm not sure which 'scenario' is better in this case, but the dicison should be a conclusion of the developer carefully considering the balance of the whole game.

I really respect your challenge that goes to all branches as far as possible with pacifist run. But that's like setting all difficulty options to 'very hard' at once, so it sounds like a logical consequence to be hard to guess which option made your run extremely difficult. Of course, I don't mean that it's your mistake but feel that the game correctly reacted to your tough challenge following its mechanism.

[close]

[Kyzrati]

From 0b10's perspective, the Derelicts broke in, security fought them out and no-one got caught.

That location has nothing to do with 0b10, by the way--you've stumbled into something much... different with that place.

I mean there's only a few items in there anyway, and visiting is only worth 1000 points. That's.. why I went there. For the points.

It's incredibly important lore-wise, if you can decrypt the terminal there. But it's also intentionally among the most challenging things you can do in the game. That said, there are also

Spoiler

safe ways to sneak in

[close]

The balance has certainly changed lately, though! Before Beta 8 it didn't used to be quite so deadly (only... really deadly rather than "if you aren't a top pro it's probably going to squash you" deadly xD), so perhaps something might change with regard to telegraphing this in the future, though it's not easy to do given the context.

Note if you're looking to explore the full extent of Cogmind's world without putting too much time into it, I highly recommend switching to the easiest difficulty, because on the regular difficulty you'll be looking at putting in many hundreds of hours before you see everything! (Save scumming is honestly an okay approach, too, if your priority is to avoid wasting time--not everyone has the luxury of hundreds of hours to pour into Cogmind . I'm even planning to add arbitrary save-load access to the lowest difficulty for this reason.)

I think the change to add trackers was a bit of an experiment, maybe Kyzrati will think of another way to keep combat players from farming intercepts without making flight quite so hard?

Indeed a bit of an experiment, just added in Beta 8, and I'm waiting to see how more players respond to it. Can't do anything without getting more feedback. So far already a few players have been taking on the challenge intentionally and repeatedly--Cogmind honestly doesn't have enough truly hard challenges anymore, and this is one of them. So the fact that people who know about the potential consequences are still out there doing an early DC, for example, is meaningful here.

[spoilers]As you say, though, maybe Zhirov should specifically warn a little more about it now, somehow... Maybe that's the place that can be updated? Although it could still be tough to do so in a logical manner... He doesn't technically know anything about it, at all, so how could he possibly prepare you for the consequences xD[/spoilers]

Regardless, in the end there are definitely going to always be parts of the game which are off limits for certain builds and strategies--this is intentional (well, some people flaunt their skills and overcome these limitations, but they are few and far in between ).

[Joshua]

I think the change to add trackers was a bit of an experiment, maybe Kyzrati will think of another way to keep combat players from farming intercepts without making flight quite so hard?

Indeed a bit of an experiment, just added in Beta 8, and I'm waiting to see how more players respond to it. Can't do anything without getting more feedback. So far already a few players have been taking on the challenge intentionally and repeatedly--Cogmind honestly doesn't have enough truly hard challenges anymore, and this is one of them. So the fact that people who know about the potential consequences are still out there doing an early DC, for example, is meaningful here.

I wonder if a Tracker without the immobilizer would be a little more survivable for flight? Then they are still really damaging swarmers that you can't (practically) outrun, encouraging you to leave ASAP and maybe also making it difficult to use machines if they miss -- maybe they could also have a proximity effect like 8R-AWN locking down machines in the local area xD. As it is now you can't really escape as a flight build like you could before, and you have little to no warning about how dangerous they are before the first shot.

[Xii]

[...] I can sympathize with the frustration.

...Thank you. Simple sympathy makes me feel much better. Sorry all if I came off abrasive in my tone there.

I really respect your challenge that goes to all branches as far as possible with pacifist run. But that's like setting all difficulty options to 'very hard' at once, so it sounds like a logical consequence to be hard to guess which option made your run extremely difficult.

Hey, cool . Yeah, I like poking my pacifist head into places I know nothing about. Usually though, there's at least something I can do to waggle myself out of a sticky situation. That's why I was so pissed off here, trackers are instant death. They appear out of nowhere and disable propulsion before I even have a chance to act. Lame.

you've stumbled into something much... different with that place. [...] It's incredibly important lore-wise, if you can decrypt the terminal there. But it's also intentionally among the most challenging things you can do in the game.

Ah, ok. Yeah I've been gathering there's still stuff to uncover. From what I can tell though, it probably requires combat to get through. And well... you know me. I'm all about peace, love and understanding.

Those encrypted terminals tho. Mmm.

That said, there are also

Spoiler

safe ways to sneak in

[close]

I'm aware. Been there, done that. Always for the 1000 points

Note if you're looking to explore the full extent of Cogmind's world without putting too much time into it, I highly recommend switching to the easiest difficulty, because on the regular difficulty you'll be looking at putting in many hundreds of hours before you see everything!

Honestly? ...I like the challenge. Roguelikes are roguelikes because you risk losing everything. Exploring new branches for the first time was such a rush of excitement! I pondered my every step for several minutes, trying to figure my way out of some really hairy situations! Loved every moment of it.

THAT's why I was so mad here -- never given the chance to think, now what? Trackers suddenly pop in, disable propulsion, what's a stealth flight gonna do? I'll tell you what; once I muster the courage, I'm loading the game and popping that teleport. If I make it, it'll make a helluva war story

Regardless, in the end there are definitely going to always be parts of the game which are off limits for certain builds and strategies--this is intentional (well, some people flaunt their skills and overcome these limitations, but they are few and far in between ).

That's cool. I'll die trying.



And I want you to know that Cogmind is still one of the best games I've ever played -- and I've played a lot! Cogmind is the kind of game I look forward to introducing to my future children.

[Kyzrati]

Cool

As mentioned before the Trackers were a bit of an experiment (just added), one could say overkill but there really haven't been a lot of difficult challenges added to Cogmind in a while, so this was it. They'll probably need to be dialed back somehow, but almost anything that isn't super deadly can be overcome by determined flight players, hence their design xD. I'm still waiting to see if and how more people interact with them.

Design-wise the lack of warning the first time is problematic--it's otherwise very rare for something like that to happen in Cogmind, and could be especially startling for flight which is used to being able to run from practically anything anyway. They partially replaced the original CPs, which flight has no issue with, and this is probably the only situation in the game which is likely to kill an unprepared player quickly (common in other roguelikes, actually, but as I said quite rare in Cogmind).

At least once you do know what Trackers are, you'll either avoid triggering them in the first place, get the hell out of 0b10 maps before they come (this is what some players are doing now, which is... pretty much the intended result of Trackers!), or have a different build/approach, though I haven't yet seen too many people successfully fighting them. It's certainly possible, just not usually worth it.

All that said, I also don't mind having an enemy which is deadly enough to be practically unstoppable for most builds, the bigger issue would be the lack of warning/foreshadowing, but there's no good way to do that here, not one that would make sense...

Anyway, as a new feature this all still needs time. Too bad GJ isn't around to mess with them, because he was one of the reasons they were added in the first place

[zxc]

Trackers are absolutely bonkers. You really need foreknowledge and specific strats to deal with them (or attempt to).