Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Joshua]

Beta 7 added a "map-wise global timer" to limit the number of Z-hacks that can be used.

Chipping in here to say I don't love this change: on the Factory map I just played, I think I got 5 Z-hacks: 1 Light dispatch, 2 Recon, 1 Terminal Locations and I asked for Trap Installations before getting cut off. I don't play many imprinted games but it was especially painful in a game where I got to Access and would've loved to get the Exit location from intel, but couldn't and got swamped by Assaults faster than I could clear them without help. (This may play to the "OP crutch" part of the criticism: you could say I just need to get better so I don't get swamped by Assaults.)

In that game I was on Wheels, in this one on treads, but should imprinting really do more for bots who move faster and have less need of allies?

I think in exchange for giving up all normal terminal hacks (Access(Main)/Access(Branch), Alert(Purge)) one ought to get a little more in return.

Just my two cents since this is a relatively new nerf and possibly open for discussion.

[Kyzrati]

Heh, well... in the end imprinting is still basically the most powerful buff you can get overall, although for some builds/styles/players it is no longer always the clear front-runner, so it seems to be in a really good spot balance-wise.

Note that getting exit intel is not meant to be a reliable part of imprinting, purely a luck thing (it's intentionally set as the rarest Zion intel, by far!), so you'll need to find an alternative way to locate the Access exit anyway.

should imprinting really do more for bots who move faster and have less need of allies?

It's interesting you mention that because imprinting is not necessarily all that often used by these bots, as they're usually capable of hacking and can get more use out of Terminals by comparison.

In practice Zion is a more common ally for combat bots not primarily for the possible intel (which is pretty random and should be considered incidental), but for the occasional ally support and especially superior parts those allies can leave behind for you.

Losing Z-Hack support on one floor just means leaving that floor sooner if you're not ready for what else could happen, but Access in particular is going to be a challenge due to its size, which is fine since it's the last main floor.

[Joshua]

should imprinting really do more for bots who move faster and have less need of allies?

It's interesting you mention that because imprinting is not necessarily all that often used by these bots, as they're usually capable of hacking and can get more use out of Terminals by comparison.

In practice Zion is a more common ally for combat bots not primarily for the possible intel (which is pretty random and should be considered incidental), but for the occasional ally support and especially superior parts those allies can leave behind for you.

Losing Z-Hack support on one floor just means leaving that floor sooner if you're not ready for what else could happen, but Access in particular is going to be a challenge due to its size, which is fine since it's the last main floor.

I think the bit about superior parts is true for experienced players, and I believe your motivation for the anti-farming changes in recent releases. However I imagine (haven't tried it) that they are also the least likely to be affected, being able to cycle through chutes or garrisons in order to get more Z-allies in, and hoarding the parts they do get.

I remember, though, as a new player, how cool it was the first time I got imprinted and was able to summon allies. For a beginner I think they work more as a get-out-of-jail-free card which requires finding a terminal than a supply of superior parts. Having the system cut off the hard line as you're rushing for a terminal you just spotted, or knew about via intel or the terminal ping, seems to me to be more frustrating than fun. (Contrast this with the mechanic of an operator noticing something's up with its terminal and locking it down: that at least allows you the possibility of still finding other terminals on that map.)

I do understand that exit intel from Z-hacks isn't meant to be reliable, I was holding it up more as a comparison to what you give up when you accept imprinting. I don't think the advantages from any of the other caves branches have as big a downside with as variable an upside (even CPs can be farmed, with some trouble), though as I said I have little personal experience and practice with imprinting and you have statistics from the uploaded scoresheets so I expect you're right when you say it's still the most powerful buff. Certainly getting a Hero as an ally can carry a whole floor.

[Kyzrati]

The cutoff isn't all that random, though--it only happens after quite a few turns have passed, so it's only likely to kick in if you've been spending a long time on a single floor. This is more likely to occur in Access, since it's by far the largest map.

I disagree that the upsides of imprinting are all that "variable," it just has its limits because otherwise players abuse it even more!

That said, it's good that you brought this up because I do believe that further lengthening the duration before a lockdown would be a great tweak for easier difficulty modes.

[Joshua]

should imprinting really do more for bots who move faster and have less need of allies?

It's interesting you mention that because imprinting is not necessarily all that often used by these bots, as they're usually capable of hacking and can get more use out of Terminals by comparison.

I wanted to develop this line of thinking a little more.

It appears the cutoff for Z-hacks is around 1800 turns, at least in my experience (two imprinted games in beta 7+).

For a flight bot moving at 27, that gives more than 6000 moves to explore the floor and with propulsion and utility shielding you really only have to worry about dealing with swarmers and maybe programmers, which can be done (not saying this is the best way) by summoning allies when some spot you. You also get lots of Z-intel which does eventually tend to give you the exit locations, if you haven't found them by then.

For hover moving at 40 you have around 4500 moves, minus time spent fighting, which is more likely on hover. This seems like a lot of time to engage in undesirable farming practices especially for weapon shielding which saves a lot of weight and inventory space on hover.

When moving at 160 (treads) you would get around 1125 moves, minus time spent fighting - and you are much more likely to run into fights because you're moving so slow. In my mind this means you have to plan to be able to deal with anything you encounter without allies because you are unlikely to be able to find them when you need them.

For legs at 120 you'd get about 1500 moves, again minus time spent fighting: better than treads, maybe enough to make imprinting a good deal. You can carry enough firepower to be able to deal with whatever comes your way in the main game and stockpile equipment to deal with late-game branches and the extended game. I imagine a stockpile of ZWC plus PC is quite nice, but it's hard to get there!

[Kyzrati]

Yeah the flight-nonflight dichotomy shows here for sure, and the latter will always tend to have a more challenging run. Because each

Of course, although we can say flight technically gains more from imprinting, it also loses more as well, in the form of all the extra Terminals they could've hacked normally, so really it just maintains the parity of flight being a less dangerous strategy once you've got it up and running.

The turn counts you mention are precisely what I based the settings on, looking through scoresheets at how long it takes non-flight players to move through maps, and deciding when that cutoff should likely come into play to balance out the effects of imprinting. (Flight players didn't even register here )