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Author Topic: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions  (Read 31914 times)

DDarkray

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Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
« on: August 03, 2018, 12:02:50 PM »

What is Armchair Robotics?
Armchair Robotics is a weekly discussion around a selected topic. Ask questions, answer them, and post your thoughts, so that we can all learn from each other and improve our understanding of the game!

Discussions take place in the following locations:
For those of you who are looking to get even more involved, you're welcome to come write something about this week’s subject in the google doc below. The community is looking to gradually build up a compendium of helpful tips for newer players to read. Your work might even be added to the ever-expanding Cogmind Community Guide!

Table of Contents

Here on the forums, all the Armchair topics are combined into a single thread. Add responses/comments to this thread as you like, or use one of the other discussion locations. (r/Cogmind Armchair threads tend to be the most active, but feel free to post anywhere, they all get visitors!)

Quick links to each new topic posted in this thread by the discussion hosts:


And the first topic is...

Armchair Robotics Week #1: Propulsion Type
This week we’ll be talking about Propulsion type. Here are a few starting points for discussion:
  • What are the pros and cons of different propulsion types?
  • How does your choice of propulsion affect your playstyle?
  • How many propulsion slots should you evolve?
  • What is your favorite type of propulsion and why?
Enjoy!

(See the same topic also on r/Cogmind and Steam.)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 03:33:37 PM by Kyzrati »
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Mhorre

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Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2018, 01:44:27 PM »

My 2 cents:

  • What are the pros and cons of different propulsion types?

Treads are the slowest non-overweight propulsion, with normal treads clocking in at 160 and the fastest prototype treads clocking in at 135. They make up for this by providing a huge amount of support, have integrity and coverage enough that they work as armour on their own, and have bonuses to reducing recoil. For combat, treads require the lowest amount of slots to run without going overweight, although the benefit from this is not as good as it sounds due to their 100% trap trigger chance. They're fairly easy to acquire, sentries being a great source of treads. I'm not a fan of treads because of their slow speed, which is punished more and more later into the game, and the fact that although coverage and integrity is the best way to mitigate damage in early and midgame, resistances and evasion are the best ways to do this in lategame. Treads also allow you to literally crush your enemies by rolling over them, which is insanely cathartic if you've lost as many runs to Wastes as I have. :P

Legs are of moderate speed when not overweight, with most legs in the vicinity of 120, plus or minus 10, although there are outliers. They have decent support, usually forcing you to run 4 or 5 propulsion slots to avoid being overweight. Their main benefit is their ubiquity, meaning that you can very easily get basic legs from both grunts and hunters. I don't have a huge amount to say about legs beyond that - I find 5 prop slots wasteful when you could get similar speeds and efficacy at less energy cost running 2 or 3 with wheels. Tripod is a unique playstyle attached to legs, though, and I enjoy that quite a lot. Running 3 legs overweight means your speed tends to hover at about 150, 10 faster than treads, but you only have to use 3 propulsion slots, and you still get the other benefits of abundant sources and decent integrity/coverage, plus it synergizes pretty well with certain items scattered throughout the midgame and the lategame. Kicking is a unique benefit to legs, as well, which makes ramming much less likely (or if running 5, impossible) to cause self-damage. I haven't found a good use for it, but I suppose it is nice in a panic situation.

Wheels are the fastest ground-based propulsion when not overweight, at 80-100, but very low support means you'll probably never see that speed outside of the scrapyard. They suffer from very low integrity as well, meaning that stacking wheels to achieve that speed is a bad idea. The trick up their sleeve, though, is that they have extremely low overweight penalty. You can run several times overweight on wheels and match speeds with legs. Basic wheels are also very available as well, since most non-combat bots use wheels, and there aren't very many types of wheels, so you can run on these basic crappy wheels until lategame, though they do mean a noticeable difference in speed. I personally massively enjoy running 2-prop wheel builds, since they allow basic leg speeds going into endgame, support a very heavy tank build, and allow many utility slots to be evolved which is an incredible power boost. The downsides of this are that wheels need to be heavily armoured to be effective, and the early/midgame is never quite comfortable, since the best damage mitigation comes in later.

Hover, I don't really know a lot about. It's kind of a hybrid between traditional combat and flight styles. It's very fast and has decent evasion and support, but non-combat hover units have low integrity, and there's a huge power difference between basic hover units and combat/prototype hover units, kind of the opposite of wheels. This means that hover is really hard to get your hands on, and it doesn't allow for a lot of mistakes when it comes to losing propulsion. I can imagine that a build combining cooled and combat hover would be very powerful, but it requires a lot of setup, and I'm imagining usually a transition build in between would work? I don't know. If I'm specializing in combat, I'd rather go with wheels than hover, and if I'm specializing in stealth, I'd rather go with flight than hover.

Flight is the prime choice for stealth builds, and that's for a good reason. Incredibly high speed, low support, low integrity, and the ability to hop over other robots all combine to make it the best propulsion out there for avoiding fighting. Flight builds need to be very specialized, and usually have a transition build of treaded or legged combat in early game to set up. Once you get a handle on them, though, they are, in my opinion, the most reliable way to get a basic win. Flight builds suffer from being very fragile in early mid-game (-7, -6), but are more resilient than almost any other build in lategame, and they completely sidestep dealing with alert. However, this all comes at a huge cost - they cannot fight. Yes, I know flying brick exists, but for 99% of the mid and late game you still aren't fighting. But, if your goal does not involve combat at all, you'd do well with flight.

  • How does your choice of propulsion affect your playstyle?

As I've stated, I think treads, legs, and wheels are the best choice for combat playstyles. Flight is the best choice for stealthy playstyles. Hover sits somewhere in between - you're fast enough to outrun anything that isn't flying or hovering, which means you can take on more of an evasive combat playstyle? I don't know. All other combat playstyles tend to approach similarity in endgame regarding speed and utility style. Treads do seem a better choice for kinetic builds because of the recoil reduction, but crit builds, the most effective kinetic build, don't tend to have a lot of recoil.

  • How many propulsion slots should you evolve?

Depends on the build type you're going for. Treads should work towards 4 propulsion slots (because of 2-slot treads all but eclipsing 1-slot treads by lategame), legs should specialize in tripod or run 4-5 slots, wheels should run 2, flight should run 4-5 if hacker or aim for 8-9 by -1, evolving more slots as needed if flying brick or other heavy style. I don't know about hover.

  • What is your favorite type of propulsion and why?

Wheels, definitely. Being able to achieve decent speeds with 2 propulsion slots means you can spend pretty much everything else on utility slots, and seeing as utility slots are the most powerful slot type, this means your resulting lategame build can be very strong. Downsides are that you have a loose mid-game, when good armour hasn't really entered the picture yet, and that if you have sloppy enough play to the point of build collapse, rebuilding is very difficult, as you don't have the ability to run prop armour (or easily transition to another build in lategame), and using your utility slots properly means you have a great number of specialized utilities that may be hard to replace.
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Amphouse

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Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2018, 05:47:43 PM »

Hello fellow Cogmind players! I'm Amphouse, I've been playing and following this game for a long time and a lot of people know me as the "wheels guy", so normally I would be memeing about wheels here, but since this is meant to be an informative series, I'll talk seriously here and just give my honest opinion about the propulsion types.
 
First off, while wheels do have a lot of potential to be good for a combat build, I do think that using just wheels makes the game harder, so I wouldn't actually recommend it for learning. The main reason to use wheels is to save on slots by only needing either your 2 original prop slots, or possibly evolving one more prop slot for three wheels. You should never use more than 3 wheels(and many people say just use 2), and you should pretty much always be overweight, since wheels have a very small overweight penalty, so they are the ideal propulsion for this. However, since wheels are so fragile, you'll need to constantly kill neutral bots for extra wheels, which is kind of annoying. It's pretty hard to find good wheels on the ground, since wheels are fairly rare and there are not that many types. So..yeah, while wheels are not just a meme and have legitimate uses, I don't actually think they are the best propulsion type.

So what is the best propulsion type? Well...they are all pretty balanced at this point in time I think, and as a result it depends what kind of build you are running. Generally though, I think that flight units are my most commonly used propulsion type, and they are certainly the best prop type for any kind of stealth build. As for combat...I've actually gone back and forth on this, but recently another player has made me appreciate legs a lot more with his reliable "tripod" build. I used to think that treads were superior for combat, but now I'm not so sure. If you're running a full kinetic build, then treads are probably still better for the free recoil reduction, but if you are running an energy weapons build(which I think is generally better, btw), then I actually prefer legs. Legs are similar to wheels in that they don't suffer much from being overweight, and they are also similar in that it is pretty easy to get more from the complex bots, but they actually have good integrity and multiple types including actual good midgame options, unlike wheels. You can't really run out of legs ever, since you constantly get more from grunts and hunters. That makes them very reliable. Even though treads have more integrity, if you break them you actually can run out, since only sentries and haulers(as far as common enemies) have them.  Treads also suffer a lot more from being overweight, compared to legs. That said, late game treads are actually pretty fast, faster than overweight legs, and they have a lot of support, so I think that a underweight treads build is probably a bit better than an overweight legs build in the late game. However, such a treads build would prefer to run 4 tread slots so they can use 2 2-slot treads, while a tripod build only needs 3 legs for the whole game(obviously). So...again, they are very close in power level for combat builds.

Wow, that was long...ok so I've talked about wheels, legs, and treads enough for now. I only briefly talked about flight because I think other players have already said what I would say, so I'll just add on one other important thing - in the late game, flight arrays(2-slot flight propulsion) are extremely good. You can easily run a build with 3 of these that can support 2 large storage units and still have enough support for a late game combat build. This is probably the strongest build in the game. Some people like to call this the "flying brick" build. I think that's a dumb name because all of my late game flight builds end up looking like that, so I just call it late game flight. Your alternative would be to run multiple(4-6) prototype single slot flight units and go super fast, which sounds good but...it's not really worth it, when the brick build is fast enough to avoid most enemies anyways and gets to hold and use way more items. It is better for speedrunning, though.

Finally, I should talk about hover. This is my least used propulsion type, but that's not because it's bad-it's actually quite good, but it's hard to use. Since flight is better for strictly stealth, hover is best suited for a hybrid build that plays stealthy most of the time but is still prepared and capable of combat when it benefits you the most. I love this play style but it's very hard to pull off. It doesn't help that most early game hover kinda sucks - the stuff you get off of watchers just isn't good enough. Programmer hover is average. The best hover units from enemies come off of demolishers, but killing them isn't easy, and generally it's better if you never have to fight them in the first place. There are 2 other ways for a hover build to get good propulsion: Zion light allies drop Z-glide systems, which are very good, but extremely fragile; and you can fabricate hover units, which isn't that unreasonable since a hover build will be playing stealthily and using hackware anyways. Notably, since combat hovers are not prototypes, they are a very good target for schematic hacking and subsequent fabrication, as you will get 2 from each fab. Final note: if you want to play pure melee combat(very fun build), hover is probably your best choice of propulsion. I've made one attempt at this before but I'd like to try it more in the future.

Well, that's about all I have to say as far as general tips go, but if anyone has any questions for me about what type of propulsion suits what type of build, go right ahead and ask me.   
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Kyzrati

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Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2018, 07:04:27 PM »

First off, while wheels do have a lot of potential to be good for a combat build, I do think that using just wheels makes the game harder, so I wouldn't actually recommend it for learning.
That's how I see them, too. In fact, as GJ essentially proved, and I played a bit this way, too, is that you can really own with hybrid propulsion schemes, and wheels can be a part of the best setups. Like using treads for their tankiness, longevity, and recoil reduction in combat but switching over to wheels for faster movement since only a small number will be fine even when inevitably overweight. Halftracking it :P (I think at one point GJ also kept flight units around to jump enemies, although that was probably back before being overweight prevented jumping, since temporarily switching a heavy build over to flight is not good for your overweight status!)

In any case, hybrid propulsion is an interesting subtopic here.

In terms of my own strategies, regardless of propulsion type I tend to evolve more slots than most players who excel at using that type. This is more of a defensive approach (despite my style being combat-focused), since extra propulsion is basically "free armor," and you don't have to worry about being overweight since you can always throw on more propulsion, or even go hybrid.

Definitely not a very efficient, approach, but it's a safer way to tackle the main complex, which is what I normally stream. Better optimization is required for tougher extended game areas!

My favorite propulsion used to be legs, for sure, and then treads became a lot more viable as they got faster by default, so I'm now split between the two for my combat builds, often switching back and forth depending on what I find. Wheels are really fun, too, and I'll use those if I happen across armored variants. I tend to have armor anyway, so the wheels won't get shot off that easily and the extra speed is nice to have.
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zxc

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Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2018, 01:24:32 AM »

X-post from reddit:

I wrote up some initial thoughts regarding propulsion a while ago, and I'll quote it here below:

Quote
Propulsion type and build strategy are tightly coupled

Propulsion type primarily affects speed, support, and integrity

A mismatch between propulsion type and build strategy leads to underperformance

Choice of propulsion type can transform over a run

Flight

Fastest speed, lowest support, lowest integrity, hopping over robots ability

Key stats define it as extreme propulsion characterised by avoidance of confrontation

Low integrity exposes it to massive attrition if damage is not avoided or mitigated well enough

High speed amplifies energy costs and heat generation

Arrays trade some speed for support and reduction in energy/heat effects

High speed and the flight bonus leads to high evasion, which can be effective damage avoidance if maximised

Low support benefits more from low mass items such as processors, hackware, melee weapons, light power sources, sensor/scanner utilities, and power amplifiers

Low support means minimal inventory space

Hover

Fast speed, moderate support, moderate integrity

Key stats define it as flexible propulsion suiting a hybrid approach of not avoiding all confrontation

Excellent balance between speed and support suits endgame play

Significantly worse than flight for confrontation avoidance, which it must make up for with robustness and some combat ability

Relatively rare and therefore vulnerable to attrition

Fast speed must be taken advantage of

Wheels

Moderate speed, moderate-high support, moderate integrity, low penalty

Key stats define it as suitable for maintaining moderate speeds while significantly overweight

Low penalty is best taken advantage of with a minimum of propulsion slots (excluding propulsion armour)

Low end wheels common on main floors but high end wheels are significantly rarer

Exposed to traps while overweight

Legs

Slow speed, high support, high integrity, kicking ability (+20% chance per active slot)

Key stats define it as flexible propulsion for combat focused play

Most common type found from hostile robots and high integrity makes it resistant to attrition

Treads

Slowest speed, highest support, highest integrity, no self-damage when ramming ability, crushing ability (chance varies), reduced recoil (-1% recoil per active slot)

Key stats define it as extreme propulsion for combat focused play

Vulnerable to traps

High likelihood of triggering traps and slow speed reduces the importance of staying under the support limit

Exposed to extermination clock due to slow speed

Reduced ability to avoid combat and therefore alert gain and item attrition

Recoil reduction benefits kinetic builds the most

Propulsion doubles as effective armour

High end treads somewhat rare but last a long time

Often occupy two slots per item (especially at endgame), preferring an even number of propulsion slots

To continue...

My favourite propulsion is flight. This should come as no surprise to anyone. It's sleek and elegant. My favourite items in the game are lightweight and go perfectly well with flight. Hacking is extremely powerful and pairs perfectly with flight. Having a significantly faster movespeed than everyone else opens up a lot of options. The big downside is how fragile you are.

You can play flight in a variety of ways. Any number of propulsion slots is perfectly viable. With just two, you can run an ultra light hacking build. It's over the top but it works. With a dozen prop slots, you'll be using a whole lot of propulsion armour (inactive treads and legs which serve as massless armour) and you'll have heaps of spare flight units already equipped and ready to be switched on whenever you need them.

The sweet spot is definitely 4-8 prop slots though. Even numbers are better because of flight arrays, which are extremely strong and pragmatic. Impulse thruster arrays support 27 mass for two slots spent, which is 13.5 support per slot, but also have the cost of a typical one slot flight unit. They can also be fabricated in pairs. They're certainly not the best flight units but they are so useful in transitioning to a high-end flight build or just completing a w0. The best flight units for mass support are 16 support per slot (imp. q-thruster I think?).

A lot of the time I play with 6 prop slots because it's 'just right'. You reach something like 20 speed with endgame flight units that way with about 80 support, which is enough for 2-3 lrg storage.

One big vulnerability of flight is stasis traps. If you're running 'tight', with no excess mass support, you're going to get stuck in one for ages. Some methods to counteract this:

* Ensure that you never get hit by stasis traps. This means having operator allies, hacking machines and robots, and exploring through rooms as much as possible instead of using hallways.
* Have excess propulsion slots with flight units ready to be switched on to 'burst' through the stasis.
* Have treads as propulsion armour and switch them on for the one or two turns it takes to break free.
* Have stasis canceller utilities at the ready. I don't like this because it's so niche and consumes a slot, even if it's an inventory slot.

Flight is very tough early in the game. I still do switch to flight very often in Materials, but it's not exactly optimal to do so. For years, the preferred strategy has been to play combat early on and accrue a number of items to be used in a switch to flight around the end of Materials or the start of Factory. This is still the way to go. Materials is very confined and difficult to avoid enemies in, and early flight units are so fragile that they'll be blown off with a single bad hit.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 01:51:08 AM by zxc »
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DDarkray

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Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2018, 12:22:34 PM »

Originally posted on Reddit.

I'm most familiar with flight prop, so I'll talk about it here.

Flight is no doubt the best propulsion for stealth play, but it is difficult to get started during the early game. At Materials, flight units are very fragile while your sensor array is at low quality, so it's fairly easy to get shot down by regular Grunts or Swarmers. However, Factory levels start to become more favorable for stealth build due to large spacious map, higher quality sensors and flight prop, and having more slots for variety of items such as hackware, light-weight armor, etc.

With high speed, you have so many advantages:

1) Outrun enemies without needing to fight, with high chance of dodging shots.

2) Skip over robots while fleeing to provide cover from attack and impede enemy's movement.

3) Make the programmer clock ticks slowly since you can get to places very quickly. This is especially useful at higher floor when the map is ridiculously large.

As for the number of propulsion to get, lower number enables you to put the most slots on powerful processors such as hackware, but you'll be more vulnerable to damage. Higher number lets you carry more non-processor items such as heavy armor, multiple storage units, and extra legs and treads as propulsion armor. Usually it's safer to have more propulsion.
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GJ

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Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2018, 04:57:44 AM »

Armchair Robotics Week #2: Optimizing Movement
As something of a follow-up to propulsion, this week we'll be discussing movement: propulsion-specific movement strategies (things to keep in mind if you're slow, how to abuse your speed if you're fast), general movement tips (e.g. mistakes beginners are likely to make), even niche strategies such as how to abuse ally/hostile AI with your own movement. Anything that comes to mind with regard to movement, go ahead and ask or share your knowledge.

Enjoy!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 07:10:36 PM by Kyzrati »
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Kyzrati

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Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2018, 06:29:14 PM »

Purveyor of Pretty Slow Propulsion Builds here. We like shooting things while on legs and treads.

I have some less obvious tips, especially for beginners, the kind of things I repeatedly remind myself of when walking or treading around to avoid more trouble down the line:
  • When a single move takes a turn or two, you have to be really cautious about your local movement route. In the long-term scheme of things, sometimes it's not worth going deep into a room to grab a single part. Obviously if it's something you really need or want then you're still going to do it, but always keep in mind the time cost of doing so. A treaded build taking a 20-turn round trip just to grab a sixth or seventh weapon may not be worth it! There'll be more conveniently located parts later.
  • As a slow combat bot, remember that it's usually better to retreat from a group of hostiles newly encountered out in the open, even while under fire and you'll take several hits along the way, as long as you can retreat to a better position to fight from, because this will save you potential damage in the long run. (There are obvious exceptions if you have AOE weapons :P)
  • For the above reason, even before encountering enemies your local movements can make a big difference! Always be thinking ahead in terms of tactics: "if an enemy pops up in the next turn, am I currently in the best possible position I could be, or is that position close by?" I prefer sticking close to walls, and only cross open areas where necessary, or if I've got a really powerful build and don't care, or if there are other factors at play.
  • In terms of avoiding trouble in the first place, which even slow combat bots will want to do in the late game, is to be on the lookout for areas where lots of bots are moving through an area, in which case it's likely other patrols will happen through as well. It's easy to get bogged down in places like this, go around! Heading into adjacent rooms and blasting/chopping through walls is a good way to stay out of sight while still following main corridors.
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Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2018, 10:43:16 AM »

Armchair Robotics Week #3: RNG and Risk Management
This week we’ll be talking about RNG and Risk Management. Here are a few starting points for discussion:

  • Which random mechanic is the most annoying? (item spawns, hostile encounters, miss chance, which parts get hit, branch depths, hacking, etc.)
  • How much does your success rely on RNG?
  • How do you plan around randomness?
  • How well do your builds handle things going wrong?
  • What advice would you give to people who find that there is too much RNG in cogmind?

Enjoy!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 07:09:35 PM by Kyzrati »
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Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2018, 11:44:24 AM »

Quote
Which random mechanic is the most annoying? (item spawns, hostile encounters, miss chance, which parts get hit, branch depths, hacking, etc.)

Traps can be pretty annoying for me. Just going about my business in factory, stealth-flight-ing around, totally not currently running from ~10 different enemies at once because I'm kinda bad even with a good sensor array, but then I get hit by an ambush or chute trap. These ones are the worst for me. Chute traps are not quite so bad if you're flying or hovering, but on anything else? You're as good as dead, at least at my skill level. Ambush traps are unavoidable squads, which is pretty bad imo. Other squads are unavoidable because I'm bad at the game, but ambush trap squads are unavoidable just because RNG.

Quote
How much does your success rely on RNG?

Currently, I would say a large amount. Finding enough hackware, flight units, sensors, etc. to keep myself going is tough. I've only made it out of factory once in semi-recent times, with a flight stealth hacking build.

Quote
How do you plan around randomness?

Hacking for schematics for things I need, although that doesn't really negate randomness (finding a fabbie in these giant factory levels, whether or not I succeed at hacking it, whether or not I'm traced before I can print, whether or not I got pressed between two squads earlier and so they saw me and came after me so I can't stick around to get the printed item, etc.). I tend to be poor at succeeding in these plans, however.

Quote
How well do your builds handle things going wrong?

Not well. When I inevitably encounter squads in such a way they notice me, they tend to deal a lot of damage to me over time, especially if I encounter another squad on my way to flee, and am faced with an unavoidable encounter with bullets.
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zxc

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Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2018, 10:27:27 PM »

Two elements of the game which are influenced by RNG are the items you find and the enemies you have to fight. Winning any one particular fight is easy, but over time there is a decent chance that you'll face a large fight or two or more fights in close sequence in which you lose many of your items. This RNG can be smoothed over by equipping storage units and grabbing spare parts (especially key parts like weapons, propulsion and armour). Hence storage units are very important for reducing variance in Cogmind.
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Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2018, 11:25:55 AM »

  • Which random mechanic is the most annoying? (item spawns, hostile encounters, miss chance, which parts get hit, branch depths, hacking, etc.)
Definitely item spawns. Especially in certain Research branches. Especially in T. Second is branch depths, specifically Storage depth and S7 depth. Storage is just plain irritating to have on -7 and it's punished reckless play for me a few times. Another RNG mechanic that's irritating is sequential enemy encounters, enemy encounters in bad locations and enemy encounters near garrisons, although this only causes significant damage if my build is either not strong enough or I play the situation wrong. Finally, chute traps. I rarely succumb to chute traps anymore because I don't get cocky and cross areas that could possibly have chute traps, but getting jumpscared by them is still annoying regardless.
Spoiler: S7 and T spoilers (click to show/hide)
  • How much does your success rely on RNG?
Not a huge amount, assuming I'm playing well. The difference RNG makes on my build, if I'm playing well, is the difference between an excellent build and an acceptable one. If I'm not playing well, however, RNG plays a lot more of a part in things. When I'm playing poorly, a bad fight or bad sequence of fights can kill my run.
  • How do you plan around randomness?
Use storage, and make sure that you have enough in storage to replace all of the vital parts of your build. Keep at least 1-2 launchers - 2-3 explosive launchers at all times is a must in Factory. Keep a melee weapon for breaking walls and panic situations. Plan assuming worst-case scenarios rather than best-case scenarios - have plans that work regardless of RNG. Have backup plans in case of worst-case scenarios. Keep your tactics flexible. Use your environment, bottleneck, use AOE weapons on clustered enemies. Use explosive machines and traps against your enemies, if you can (and you're sure you can deal with the resulting increase in alert). Position for worst-case situations. Experience helps, too. Once you know the actual potential range of events, you can better plan for them. Strong builds are less affected by RNG, so anything you can do to improve your build strength will also reduce the amount you're affected by bad RNG.
  • How well do your builds handle things going wrong?
Depends on the build and current build strength. With 2 or 3 prop builds, you can be extremely durable given a fairly strong build if you haven't yet hit the point of build collapse or imminent build collapse, but you don't have the slots for prop armour to comfortably escape and rebuild if you do, and the utility-heavy playstyle means that you will probably struggle to replace rare utilities that nonetheless contribute importantly to your build power. I've been experimenting with treads lately and have found that they can rebuild extremely easily comparatively. I haven't gotten a handle on brick or light hacker, though, so my runs using those builds don't respond very well to things going wrong.
  • What advice would you give to people who find that there is too much RNG in cogmind?
Play more deliberately and thoughtfully. Honestly. Plan before runs - plan during runs. Plan to reduce variance, don't just go with the flow. If you don't know how to do that yet, play more. When you die, review the run to see if you can point at anything that caused the death. This can be hard to do as a new player, since death tends to come fairly late after whatever caused it, but once you have the amount of games under your belt to start drawing connections between cause and effect when it comes to death, it's a very important way of improving your play. Also, a lot of new players underestimate the importance of storage, I know I did. If anyone who doesn't know already is reading this: 1 medium storage is pretty much necessary for any viable flight build. 2 large storage is my minimum for combat, with a preference for 3.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 11:34:55 AM by Mhorre »
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GJ

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Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2018, 08:43:46 AM »

Quote
Which random mechanic is the most annoying? (item spawns, hostile encounters, miss chance, which parts get hit, branch depths, hacking, etc.)
With exactly zero doubts in my mind: exit locations. It's only annoying when you want to get into a specific exit, it's all fine if you don't care, but if you're not fast and the exit you want is on the other side of the map, that makes such a big difference. Historically, this has been the bane of my existence --- shortly after high-sec was introduced, I had a lot of runs where I would hit high-sec just trying to get into Command with slow combat builds. When you have to wade through an endless battlefield just to reach your subgoal, your specific build has a tendency to not remain intact. I had to get very comfortable with the game (and less stubborn) in order to stop getting annoyed when this facet of RNG rolls for the opposite of what you want.

Quote
How much does your success rely on RNG?
These days I mostly make my build according to what the RNG favors. You can play pre-planned builds consistently in spite of RNG, but I've also played enough Cogmind that it's not very attractive to me anymore. If you have a developed understanding of the game, particularly with regard to its builds and items, it's quite fun to just figure out what unique opportunities the seed you're playing favors and roll with it. There can still be a great deal of planning involved in this sort of run, it's just more fun to optimize around the "extreme" aspects of the seed you're playing, rather than optimizing around an "OP" build such that you can win or ++ or whatever for every random seed you play. An issue with the latter approach is that sometimes there's just no excitement because nothing unexpected happens, that's somewhat hyperbolic, but you get the point. Depending on the build (usually not an "OP" build) it can also feel a bit pointless to stick with the plan if the RNG happens to severely dislike the approach you've committed to.

Quote
How do you plan around randomness?
I ride a wave of chaos to victory. If I'm doing a pre-planned build, storage units and/or hackware helps, planning out your branches helps. As something of a general rule for roguelikes, the most important aspect is identifying situations that are uniquely dangerous, when it seems like things might go very wrong if you don't stop and think about how you should proceed. In Cogmind, this is largely stuff like uniquely dangerous branches (because of your item situation), uniquely dangerous terrain (can't deal with X or Y happening in this spot, gotta go around) or uniquely dangerous equipment situations (next swarmer/programmer squad will wreck me --- play it safe and slow to minimize the risk of being spotted by anything, but if it takes you too long to find some decent items, perhaps start taking some risks to acquire them before the next Extermination).

Quote
How well do your builds handle things going wrong?
I don't necessarily even bother playing optimally anymore, as it can be more fun when things go wrong and you have to improvise. When things really go to hell and it looks like I'm possibly outright dying in the future, I tap into the depths of my soul until I find some ridiculous cheese strat that allows me to succeed regardless. It always works (when it works).

Quote
What advice would you give to people who find that there is too much RNG in cogmind?
git gud

On a more serious and general note, there's a phenomenon you see in roguelikes and roguelites and some other types of games where no matter where the game falls on the RNG spectrum, if RNG/probability is present, there will be a vocal minority complaining about how the game has too much RNG and it devalues the experience because you lose games to "bullshit". If it happens to be a game with ultimately rather little variance, a curious pattern can emerge where new players complain that the game has too much RNG as they perceive themselves losing games to it, and experienced players complain about the game having too little RNG as this diminishes replay value and the game can end up somewhat boring with little variance/uncertainty (there's a lot of fun to be had in tryharding games with high but still reasonable amounts of variance, trying to figure out what the best play is despite your uncertainties, staring at the unknown until you see something, clever approaches that effectively deal with multiple possibilities).

A part of this phenomenon is of course going to be a subsection of people who just inherently dislike variance in the games they play, who dislike probability-based hit/miss systems, stuff like that. I suspect the majority of RNG complaints don't fall into that camp, I suspect a majority of it is "venting". Somewhat commonly what happens is it's a new-ish player making the complaint, and you see them stick with the game and later re-evaluate their opinion on the RNG. I think the reason this happens so often is because until you know how to beat a game, you don't actually know how to beat it. It's an obvious statement but something you might have to remind yourself of when playing a game --- your approach to beating a complex game is practically always going to be underdeveloped, and unless you are actively reminding yourself of that when playing a game with RNG/probability, it's going to look like your strategy would've succeeded if you hadn't "gotten unlucky". In reality, it could well be the opposite: your approach requires you to get lucky in order to win --- you "just needed things to go your way a bit" and you would've won. It's a game with permadeath and if you want to survive, you can't assume the dice won't roll snake eyes a single time during your run. I know from past experience that there have been times in roguelikes where in order to get my first win faster, I would've needed to take a step back and rethink my strategy after every loss, rather than just playing more games and hoping not to get "unlucky" with a strategy that was somewhat developed but also a bit naive.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 11:14:11 AM by GJ »
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Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2018, 07:41:47 AM »

Armchair Robotics Week #4: Storage
Many players have a hard time evaluating the usefulness of Storage Units. How many Storage Units do you prefer? How do you justify it? What do you typically store in your inventory?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 07:11:31 PM by Kyzrati »
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Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2018, 07:09:55 AM »

Armchair Robotics Week #4: Weapons
This week's topic is weapons! What's your favorite weapon, why do you like it? Do you have any strong preferences with regard to damage types? What's your strategy for acquiring the weapons you want, and enough of them? Is there some particular weapon you're curious about, perhaps you're uncertain of how it's supposed to be used properly? If so, ask, and you should get an answer from players who've tried to make use of it.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 07:12:39 PM by Kyzrati »
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Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2018, 07:59:05 PM »

Armchair Robotics Week #6: Alert
This week we’ll be talking about Alert. Here are a few starting points for discussion:
  • How impactful is alert to your playstyle?
  • How do you manage the alert level?
  • Has your approach to dealing with alert changed over the course of playing more Cogmind?
  • In what ways do you use alert to your advantage?
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    Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
    « Reply #16 on: September 17, 2018, 01:34:33 PM »

    Armchair Robotics Week #7: Infowar
    Planning Your Run is being moved to next week in favor of a surprise discussion on Infowar. Up for discussion are items such as sensor arrays, signal interpreters, terrain scanners and their associated processors, transmission jammers, triangulators, visual processors, decoder chips, derelict logs, as well as machine and robot hacking aimed at acquiring intel (e.g. the map_route robot hack, or machine hacks for exit, machine, and squad locations).

    Which of these approaches do you prefer when playing a stealth build, are some of them clearly more or less valuable to you? Do you have a different preference for these items when playing combat? Any tips for getting good value out of certain infowar items? If you're curious about the viability of specific items, be sure to ask about that as well.
    « Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 01:52:21 PM by GJ »
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    Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
    « Reply #17 on: September 24, 2018, 07:01:05 AM »

    Armchair Robotics Week #8: Planning Your Run
    • What’s your favourite build/strategy throughout your run?
    • What are the crucial components in it?
    • Which branches are important for it and why?
    • How do you choose which branches to go to?
    • How well does your favourite build/strategy handle things going wrong?
    • How often do you change your plans?
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    Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
    « Reply #18 on: October 15, 2018, 05:46:29 AM »

    Warning:
    from this point onward, discussion prompts may contain what can be considered spoilers. Whenever we run a "spoilery" topic, the title will be abbreviated if it's something like a branch name, and there will be a spoiler disclaimer. However, due to the format of this thread you are reading right now, it may be easy to accidentally read spoilers. If you are particularly worried about this, please make use of r/cogmind to determine whether you want to read and participate in the current Armchair Robotics. Comments in this specific thread are still welcome, if you cannot or do not want to write your comment on Reddit.
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    Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
    « Reply #19 on: October 15, 2018, 05:48:51 AM »

    Armchair Robotics Week #9: Z (branch)
    Zion is a branch map that shows up in either -7 or -6 Lower Caves. In -9 Mines, you can encounter a random event which gives you a shortcut directly to -7 Zion (you will evolve multiple times once you reach -6 Factory, because of the depths you skipped). Various desirable items and events can spawn here, and there are some choices that can be made here such as whether or not you imprint, whether or not you enter Deep Caves.

    In what ways do you make use of Zion? How valuable do you consider the Z map itself and some of its options to be? Do you often vary what choices you make here, and whether you go for the Z map at all? If you have questions relating to Zion, feel free to ask them in this thread.
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    Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
    « Reply #20 on: October 29, 2018, 09:22:03 AM »

    Armchair Robotics Week #10: DM (branch)
    Continuing our current series on "choice" branches, DM is a branch map that shows up in either -7 or -6 Lower Caves. Data Miner offers some potentially useful schematics and intel, and if you don't aggro him, will provide assistance in the subsequent Proximity Caves in the form of an allied Enhanced Grunt. DM will also at times redirect investigations and assaults. Getting violent here can net you some good prototype hackware if you manage to kill DM, and as long as you don't damage the machine, you have a choice to interface with the Data Conduit by moving to the tile where DM was standing.

    How valuable do you consider DM to be? What do you usually do here? Feel free to post any comments or questions you have about DM.
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    Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
    « Reply #21 on: November 12, 2018, 07:49:11 AM »

    Armchair Robotics Week #11: E (branch)
    Extension is a branch that shows up at -6, -5 or -4 in Factory. Extension has an exit to Cetus, which has an exit to Archives, which has an exit to Hub_04(d). All of them are on the same depth, and contain at least one exit to the next depth's Factory, if you wish to tap out from this "extended" branch.

    Particularly notable features here are A7 (in E) and the datacore they drop upon death, a destructible transfer station in E and Hub, the Cetus Manufacturing Module and the Cetus Mainframe, an encounter with Revision 17 at the northeast stairs in Cetus,  a chance meeting with Zhirov in Archives, and the destructible network hubs in Hub.

    All of these yellow branches are up for discussion, feel free to ask questions about or comment on any of them. This is a fairly long and nuanced set of branches, so comments along the lines of what you actually do here, whether you usually tap out early due to survival/risk reasons... are particularly encouraged.
    « Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 07:53:37 AM by GJ »
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    Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
    « Reply #22 on: November 12, 2018, 02:48:09 PM »

    First time I stumbled upon this thread, I'll try to add some thoughts/questions

    I love the Extension Branch on a slow combat build, it's a great place to restock on parts. The allies you get in the cells do all the fighting for you all the way through to the Hub, so even if you enter pretty beaten up, things should be fine. There's also a ton of low level terminals, which are quite useful for a non-hacking build to get rid of some alert. You can also find prototype storage units in the hidden rooms along the main hallway, pretty good to have a spare 400 Matter container if you're going all kinetic, which I usually did. At the end of extensions I like to wait for haulers to pass by, shoot em down and see what goodies they have. Also useful to get new Large Storage Units, if the ones you brought from Materials are quite damaged. I have no idea though what global effect the destruction of the transfer stations has, anyone know?

    The Cetus branch is probably the main reason I like to come here though. There are Cetus Guard Sentries that drop great treads, armor and probably my favorite gun in the game - Imp. KE Penetrators. I really like crit gun builds and this is the weapon for it. The thermal gun they have is nice to bring along if you don't have anything very damaging in the thermal department. They can be overloaded to reach a maximum damage of 80, which is enough to destroy Sealed Barriers, like the one in Access. It's advisable to bring like an EM Launcher or something that increases salvage, using crit guns on those sentries has led to vital parts, like the guns, being destroyed on a single hit. If A7 survives, he gives you a code to, again, make more allies, which again, do all the fighting for you. This way the whole restocking tour can continue. If A7 falls he drops his datacore, which I don't know what it does exactly. I always peek towards the top exit, for the Guards and also to meet Revision17. I don't know though if the encounter with him actually leads to something else, so some insight on both matters would be welcome.

    The Archives is the big question mark to me on this branch. I have met Zhirov here once and I do not know if this event leads to something more. Usually there's just 4x normal sentries and a ton of non-hostile Administrators. Somewhere I did read that there is actually a way to gain access to the terminals content, which apparently provide a significant amount of lore. This would probably be my most important question - what do you have to bring to make that work? Or did I keep missing something that you can do in there, as far as I remember I tried quite a few things, but never got anything out of them :)
    Since I don't really know what to do here I usually just passed through, bringing an interpreter to identify the right exit into the Hub, because I'm uncertain if it's actually always the same one.

    The restocking definitely ends in the Hub. Due to its cramped layout I usually also lose all allies fairly quickly, the process is even faster with a nearby garisson. The first time I destroyed a network hub, I was lucky enough to be right by an exit. Even though killing a single Lightning is not a big deal, many of them are a huge problem, starting with them being immune to crits. I still come here, since destroying just a single hub lowers the chance of being detected on machines by 20% (correct me if I'm wrong here). I still find that useful even for a non-hacking slow combat build, since it increases the chance to lower some alert on terminals. I honestly do not know whether there is anything else you can do or find here, only ever been there on slow builds which made exploring the place more difficult. Especially if one of your guns penetrates through half the level, destroying a hub accidentally, it's time to leave. Overall, still a dangerous place being slow, I have gotten overwhelmed once by Lightnings, even though the exit was really close by.
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    GJ

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    Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
    « Reply #23 on: November 13, 2018, 09:47:48 AM »

    Zhirov is in the process of decrypting the Archives terminals when you meet him. It's possible you've met him in a previous version when the Archives terminal lore hadn't yet been added to the game. If you meet him again, you just have to interact with the terminals. East and South are always Hub exits, North is to Factory.

    I talk about A7, R17 and transfer stations in my Reddit comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Cogmind/comments/9wem9o/armchair_robotics_11_e_branch/e9k81jp/
    Reveal the spoiler tags if you want a somewhat spoilery explanation of what the encounters I mention are for. If you're looking for less specific information ("hints") instead: you should experiment with meeting R17 when not imprinted, and look for a branch map where A7's datacore automatically gives you some benefit (it's a very visible effect). R17's effect is similar, specifically in the sense that it's not apparent in the yellow branches, as that's not where it does something.
    « Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 09:51:48 AM by GJ »
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    Re: Armchair Robotics - Weekly Topical Strategy Discussions
    « Reply #24 on: November 13, 2018, 11:35:09 AM »

    Thanks alot for your answers, GJ. That link was very helpful, too.

    About:
    It's possible you've met him in a previous version when the Archives terminal lore hadn't yet been added to the game.
    I met him on my first run on beta7, the one on the leaderboards. But like I mentioned in my prior post, going 190 on 0x1 treads, time "passes" so fast without you getting somewhere, so when the attack started, I tried to help. But I'm sure you know what happens soon after, meaning there was nothing left to decode anymore.

    I put the following in spoiler tags, because it's not related to the current topic, just something I needed to get off my chest:
    Spoiler (click to show/hide)
       
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