Kyzrati: "Alpha 6 is out, and there have been comments and discussions appearing elsewhere so we should have a specific thread for that here, as usual."
Alpha announcement and changelog (http://www.gridsagegames.com/forums/index.php?topic=391.0).
Random thoughts:
- Could use confirmation on removing processors that will self-destruct
- Could use some indication in the item view of processors that removing them will destroy them (currently the only indication I can spot is the : next to the item letter when it's equipped)
- How come there is always a decent stutter right when you make you first move on a new level? I have always wondered
- If you have the inventory/equip space, why can't you swap on/off items that take up multiple slots?
Quote from: zxc on January 26, 2016, 12:10:10 PM
- Could use confirmation on removing processors that will self-destruct
Yeah, it's been requested, but due to the potential for swapping behavior and the way the inventory works it's extremely complicated the way the code is set up. I would've already done it in Alpha 6 if it were easy. I'll look into it again at some point.
Quote from: zxc on January 26, 2016, 12:10:10 PM
- Could use some indication in the item view of processors that removing them will destroy them (currently the only indication I can spot is the : next to the item letter when it's equipped)
Hm, it's the same behavior for any part of the Processor or Hackware types, so it would seem fairly redundant once you know. But I'll look for a way. Not too easy to make it both unobtrusive and actually useful/informative on that particular page.
Quote from: zxc on January 26, 2016, 12:10:10 PM
- How come there is always a decent stutter right when you make you first move on a new level? I have always wondered
The delay happens on the first action of any level of Factory size or larger, due to all the AIs starting up at once. That's because you always get the first turn. I'd rather not have the AIs acting before you, which would otherwise allow that time to be merged with the normal startup time (which would then also seem a bit long, too)...
Quote from: zxc on January 26, 2016, 12:10:10 PM
- If you have the inventory/equip space, why can't you swap on/off items that take up multiple slots?
The code is too complicated, when combined with all the other related rules. Inventory/part management code is extremely convoluted as is, but making the assumption that multi-slot items cannot be involved makes it somewhat bearable, and multi-slot items are much less common anyway, so I decided it was more important to preserve my sanity on this point :P
I really don't understand this game sometimes. I fire up a game and play decidedly unseriously, so of course this happens.
Spoiler
Cogmind - Alpha 6
Name: Happylisk
---[ ESCAPED! ]---
Performance
-------------
Evolutions (9) 4500
Robots Destroyed (303) 1515
Value Destroyed (15419) 15419
Prototype IDs (14) 280
Alien Tech Identified (0) 0
Bonus (3000) 3000
TOTAL SCORE: 24714
Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity 709/1600
Matter 265/300
Energy 1476/1480
System Corruption 6%
Temperature Cool (2)
Location Surface
Parts
-------
Power (4)
Light Particle Reactor
Reinforced Quantum Reactor
Reinforced Quantum Reactor
Reinforced Quantum Reactor
Propulsion (2)
Compact Heavy Treads
Utility (14)
Advanced Targeting Computer
Improved Energy Well
Advanced Targeting Computer
Advanced Target Analyzer
Advanced Targeting Computer
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Target Analyzer
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Heat Sink
Reflective Heavy Armor
Advanced Force Field
Advanced Cooling System
Weapon (5)
Long-range Proton Cannon
Railgun
Fusion Cannon
Nova Cannon
Linear Accelerator
Inventory
-----------
Linear Accelerator
Light Quantum Reactor
Advanced Heat Sink
Peak State
------------
Power
Light Particle Reactor
Reinforced Quantum Reactor
Reinforced Quantum Reactor
Reinforced Quantum Reactor
Propulsion
Compact Heavy Treads
Utility
Advanced Targeting Computer
Improved Energy Well
Advanced Targeting Computer
Advanced Target Analyzer
Advanced Targeting Computer
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Target Analyzer
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Heat Sink
Reflective Heavy Armor
Advanced Force Field
Advanced Cooling System
Weapon
Long-range Proton Cannon
Railgun
Fusion Cannon
Nova Cannon
Linear Accelerator
[Rating: 151]
Favorites
-----------
Power Micro Fission Core
Engine Improved Deuterium Engine
Power Core Micro Fission Core
Reactor Light Particle Reactor
Propulsion Improved Treads
Treads Improved Treads
Leg Aluminum Leg
Utility Advanced Heat Sink
Device Advanced Heat Sink
Storage Large Storage Unit
Processor Advanced Targeting Computer
Protection Hardened Light Armor Plating
Weapon Railgun
Energy Gun Cooled Plasma Rifle
Energy Cannon Long-range Proton Cannon
Ballistic Gun Railgun
Ballistic Cannon Light Cannon
Launcher Point Singularity Launcher
Stats
-------
Bonus Breakdown 3000
Win 3000
Classes Destroyed 15
Worker 16
Builder 15
Tunneler 3
Hauler 1
Recycler 19
Operator 1
Watcher 1
Swarmer 66
Grunt 78
Brawler 5
Duelist 2
Sentry 17
Hunter 30
Programmer 47
Behemoth 2
NPCs Destroyed 0
Best Kill Streak 10
Combat Bots Only 8
Matter Collected 8394
Salvage Created 14872
Parts Attached 396
Power 71
Propulsion 27
Utility 130
Weapon 168
Parts Lost 146
Power 24
Propulsion 8
Utility 60
Weapon 54
Average Slot Usage (%) 90
Naked Turns 2
Spaces Moved 4986
Fastest Speed (%) 200
Average Speed (%) 53
Slowest Speed (%) 8
Overloaded Moves 0
Propulsion Burnouts 0
Targets Rammed 2
Cave-ins Triggered 1
Teleports 0
Heaviest Build 179
Greatest Overweight (x) 38
Average Overweight (x) 1
Largest Inventory 26
Most Items Carried 17
Average Items Carried 11
Core Damage Taken 2979
Average Core Remaining (%) 67
Depth 10 Exit 50
Depth 9 Exit 70
Depth 8 Exit 79
Depth 7 Exit 74
Depth 6 Exit 41
Depth 5 Exit 90
Depth 4 Exit 74
Depth 3 Exit 72
Depth 2 Exit 79
Depth 1 Exit 44
Volleys Fired 629
Largest 5
Hottest 369
Shots Fired 1710
Gun 1128
Cannon 520
Launcher 62
Special 0
Kinetic 730
Thermal 413
Explosive 58
Electromagnetic 509
Shots Hit Robots 1118
Core Hits 561
Overload Shots 3
Energy Bleed 1
Heat Surge 1
Short Circuit 0
Meltdown 0
Melee Attacks 0
Impact 0
Slashing 0
Piercing 0
Damage Inflicted 38718
Projectiles 29240
Explosions 9459
Melee 0
Ramming 19
Kinetic 12213
Thermal 8694
Explosive 8933
Electromagnetic 8859
Impact 0
Slashing 0
Piercing 0
Self-Inflicted Damage 332
Shots 12
Rammed 2
Highest Temperature 531
Average Temperature 123
Shutdowns 5
Energy Bleed 3
Interference 2
Matter Decay 1
Short Circuit 5
Damage (minor) 0
Damage (major) 0
Damage (core) 2
Highest Corruption 16
Average Corruption 5
Message Errors 25
Parts Rejected 10
Data loss (map) 44
Data loss (database) 19
Misfires 6
Misdirections 9
Targeting Errors 36
Weapon Failures 8
Depth 8 End 3
Depth 5 End 5
Depth 4 End 3
Depth 3 End 6
Depth 2 End 16
Depth 1 End 6
Haulers Intercepted 1
Robots Corrupted 22
Robots Melted 0
Power Chain Reactions 0
Tactical Retreats 24
Communications Jammed 0
Parts Field Recycled 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Merge Repaired 0
Drone Launches 2
Drone Recoveries 0
Derelicts Assembled 0
Traps Triggered 0
Indirectly 0
Trap Hack Attempts 0
Triggered 0
Disarmed 0
Reprogrammed 0
Reused 0
Machines Hacked 1
Terminals 1
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Garrison Access 0
Total Hacks 2
Successful 2
Failed 0
Catastrophic 0
Database Lockouts 0
Manual 0
Unauthorized 2
Terminals 2
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Garrison Access 0
Terminal Hacks 2
Record 0
Part Schematic 0
Robot Schematic 0
Robot Analysis 0
Prototype ID Bank 2
Open Door 0
Level Access Points 0
Branch Access Points 0
Emergency Access Points 0
Machine Index 0
Terminal Index 0
Fabricator Index 0
Repair Station Index 0
Recycling Unit Index 0
Scanalyzer Index 0
Garrison Index 0
Alert Level 0
Unreport Threat 0
Locate Traps 0
Disarm Traps 0
Reprogram Traps 0
Dispatch Records 0
Maintenance Status 0
Security Status 0
Surveillance Status 0
Patrol Status 0
Transport Status 0
Investigation Status 0
Extermination Status 0
Reinforcement Status 0
Assault Status 0
Recall Investigation 0
Recall Extermination 0
Recall Reinforcements 0
Recall Assault 0
Hauler Manifests 0
Registered Components 0
Registered Prototypes 0
Zone Layout 0
Sector Layout 0
Machine Controls 0
Hacking Detections 1
Full Trace Events 0
Feedback Events 0
Feedback Corruption 0
Feedback Part Disabled 0
Feedback Blocked 0
Garrisons Disabled 4
Garrisons Compromised 0
Robot Schematics Acquired 0
Robots Built 0
Total Robot Build Rating 0
Robot Fabrication Matter 0
Robot Fabrication Time 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Built 0
Total Part Build Rating 0
Part Fabrication Matter 0
Part Fabrication Time 0
Parts Repaired 0
Part Repair Time 0
Parts Recycled 0
Recycled Matter 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Scanalyzed 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Damaged 0
Robot Analysis Total 0
Robots Rewired 0
Robots Hacked 0
Non-combat 0
Combat 0
Parse 0
Link 0
Rebooted 0
Overloaded 0
Assimilated 0
Manual 0
Secondary 0
Robot Hack Failures 0
Allies Hacked 0
Hacks Repelled 0
Total Allies 2
Largest Group 2
Highest-Rated Group 10
Highest-Rated Ally 5
Total Orders 2
STAY 0
GOTO 0
ROAM 0
FOLLOW 0
GUARD 0
AID 0
BUILD 0
TUNNEL 0
DROP 0
PICKUP 0
COLLECT 0
EXPLORE 2
RETURN 0
Terraforming Orders 0
Walls Built 0
Walls Tunneled 0
Ally Attacks 0
Total Damage 0
Kills 0
Allies Corrupted 0
Allies Melted 0
Peak Influence 1176
Average Influence 365
Final Influence 1176
Maximum Alert Level 4
Low Security (%) 24
Level 1 43
Level 2 22
Level 3 6
Level 4 2
Level 5 0
Squads Dispatched 47
Investigation 3
Extermination 17
Reinforcement 10
Assault 1
Garrison 16
Exploration Rate (%) 20
Regions Visited 12
Garrisons Visited 0
Relays Disabled 0
Generators Disabled 0
Network Hubs Disabled 0
Turns Passed 12296
Depth 11 96
Depth 10 486
Depth 9 1041
Depth 8 722
Depth 7 1112
Depth 6 1720
Depth 5 716
Depth 4 1186
Depth 3 1454
Depth 2 1572
Depth 1 2191
Scrapyard 96
Materials 1858
Factory 4734
Research 3026
Access 2191
Mines 391
Prototype IDs
---------------
Heavy Ion Engine
High-density Centrium Heavy Treads
Improved Medium Laser
Cooled Plasma Rifle
Improved EM Shotgun
Improved Lightning Gun
Advanced Beam Cannon
Long-range Phase Cannon
Light Anti-matter Cannon
Scatter Rocket Array
Point Singularity Launcher
Advanced EMP Blaster
Coolant Network
Improved Energy Well
Gravity Neutralizing Apparatus
Advanced Dynamic Insulation System
Experimental Reclamation Unit
Precision Energy Filter
Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None
Game
------
Seed: 1453855568
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 115 min
Sessions: 9
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 130
ASCII: 0
Keyboard: 0
Movement: Mouse
Fullscreen: 1
Font: 16/Cogmind
Map View: 76x56
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57
In the course of this run I noticed a couple of things that are probably overpowered (disruption; stacked targeting computers). It's late but I'll post some more thoughts tomorrow. The pendulum has probably swung too far in Cogmind's direction!
Haha, wow, nice job :) (I merged your post into a new Alpha 6 discussion thread, since your post in the seed thread wasn't for an actual seed run, anyway :P)
The pendulum has generally been swinging in favor of Cogmind. Stacking targeting computers is certainly quite effective now, being processors you aren't likely to lose, so they could probably use a bonus nerf. That's a tough decision though, since they still need to be individually valuable enough to be worth attaching. Maybe they just won't scale so fast.
Quote from: Kyzrati on January 26, 2016, 07:24:09 PM
Hm, it's the same behavior for any part of the Processor or Hackware types, so it would seem fairly redundant once you know. But I'll look for a way. Not too easy to make it both unobtrusive and actually useful/informative on that particular page.
Right - I'm already getting used to it, but I just thought that perhaps a line in the description of processor items could be helpful for newer players. Just a random thought of course :P
Quote from: Kyzrati on January 26, 2016, 07:24:09 PM
The delay happens on the first action of any level of Factory size or larger, due to all the AIs starting up at once. That's because you always get the first turn. I'd rather not have the AIs acting before you, which would otherwise allow that time to be merged with the normal startup time (which would then also seem a bit long, too)...
Ah! That makes sense! I suppose you don't want to randomise starting 'energy' of AIs?
Quote from: Kyzrati on January 26, 2016, 07:24:09 PM
The code is too complicated, when combined with all the other related rules. Inventory/part management code is extremely convoluted as is, but making the assumption that multi-slot items cannot be involved makes it somewhat bearable, and multi-slot items are much less common anyway, so I decided it was more important to preserve my sanity on this point :P
This is very reasonable :P
Yeah, right now all we have is a tutorial message the first time you attach a Processor/Hackware.
I could make some AIs slower to start up, yeah. It's probably a good idea to avoid that annoying few-second wait at the beginning, so I'll run some tests (not like you see most of them immediately, anyway--they're all off doing their own thing). Staggering some of the AI behavior is already how I keep the game from slowing down too much while you're running around, but I didn't apply that practice to the starting conditions. Thanks for the suggestion.
QuoteThis is very reasonable :P
I'm glad you think so ;). Like the confirmation of Processor removal, it's one of those things that I might revisit at a later point if I feel up to it, though I imagine that while a confirmation feature is at least a possibility, I don't think I'll ever feel up to tackling the massive can of worms that would allow automated swapping of multiple slots!
That winning run I posted above was a weird one. I basically decided to fill every empty utility slot with a heat sink when I didn't have anything better... and it worked . With enough utility slots I had so many heat sinks they began to work as a basic armor, and they were super easy to replenish from grunts and programmers. When I found a better utility like armor or a force field I'd swap that in, but once it was blown off it was right back to the heat sinks. I feel like this was a variant of Decker's "stack lots of propulsion slots as a substitute for armor" strategy. It had the added advantage that I could fired mass thermal volleys without any problem.
A few suggestions/observations:
1) This was my first game where Disruption played a big role. Usually I don't see much disruption, because I only tend to go EM in the late game and enemies are usually corrupted or outright destroyed before they get shut down.
At one point, I was wandering around -2 with two heavy disruption cannons. Funny against grunts and hunters, but I figured it would be the death of me when programmers showed up. In the middle of a large hallway 3 programmers and 2 hunters showed up and I thought it was the end.
Well, turns out that even though programmers aren't going to take a lot EM damage, they'll still shut down real quick. I shut down tons of programmers in Research. It felt kind of weird - EM's big achilles heel was supposed to programmers, and I was effectively 2 shotting them. Making programmers more resistant to disruption might be a good idea. On the other hand, it took 2 heavy disruption cannons for this to happen so maybe it's not such a big deal.
2) I love that targeting computers last forever now, but the stacking is too much. The adv. targeting computer I found in -5 really helped. By the time I had 3 in research, however, I had a 95% chance to hit basically everything. It was a bit over the top.
Suggested fix: Implement a system of diminishing returns. Your first computer gives you 100% of a bonus. If you have two, you get 100% of the best one and 50% of the second. With a third, you would get 100% + 50% + 25%. So, stacking three advanced targeting computers would give you 16 + 8 + 4 = 28. An improved computer and a basic one would give you 10; etc.
3) Hunters need a slight buff. I felt like in prior alphas they were too strong, but now they're probably too weak. I highly doubt stacking frigging heat sinks would have worked like this in Alpha 5 - I bet the old terminators would have shredded me.
Quote from: Happylisk on January 27, 2016, 06:24:48 AM
That winning run I posted above was a weird one. I basically decided to fill every empty utility slot with a heat sink when I didn't have anything better... and it worked . With enough utility slots I had so many heat sinks they began to work as a basic armor, and they were super easy to replenish from grunts and programmers. When I found a better utility like armor or a force field I'd swap that in, but once it was blown off it was right back to the heat sinks. I feel like this was a variant of Decker's "stack lots of propulsion slots as a substitute for armor" strategy. It had the added advantage that I could fired mass thermal volleys without any problem.
I actually used to do a lot of that around the time of the alpha challenge! (which was when I played more combat runs)
Interesting suggestions. I still haven't stacked processors yet though it looks good. Diminishing returns to stacking sounds fine but your suggestion of 100/50/25 etc sounds a bit drastic. They still take up slots, and offer no integrity+coverage to protect you. And stacking processors ought to be powerful!
Quote from: zxc on January 27, 2016, 06:39:30 AM
Interesting suggestions. I still haven't stacked processors yet though it looks good. Diminishing returns to stacking sounds fine but your suggestion of 100/50/25 etc sounds a bit drastic. They still take up slots, and offer no integrity+coverage to protect you. And stacking processors ought to be powerful!
The numbers could certainly be tweaked - 100/66/33/etc, or even 100/75/50/etc. On the other hand, I don't think this system of diminishing returns needs to be implemented for other processors (terrain scan processors, target analyzers, or even melee processors), and I don't like singling out just one type of processor - it feels heavy handed and artificial. So maybe there's another solution that's more elegant.
Spoiler
Or maybe just throw some new enemies into Quarantine and Command that require you to stack 3 advanced targeting computers if you want even a chance at hitting them. That works for me too!
Ha, interesting tactic--stacking heat sinks. I'll have to play around with that.
I'd wait to see if anything needs to be done about disruption. Hvy. Disruption Cannons are one of the best disrupting weapons in the game, after all.
More important is the Hunter issue, which is a confluence of multiple issues that came with Alpha 6.
1. I reduced their weaponry across the board by one or two tiers each. This was mainly targeted at Terminators, trying to get them from three weapons down to two, but ended up nerfing them all a bit too much.
2. On top of that I accidentally screwed up their AI. Somehow I managed to turn off their willingness to fire through walls, which loses one of their unique capabilities.
#2 has already been fixed, and I will be looking into #1 again because they are certainly too weak now. I used to fear them more than anything but now I don't much care when I see them :P. We need to get that feeling back, for sure!
I don't really want to boost their main weapons back to what they were (part of their original power came from the fact that their weapons were near-equivalent to the depth rating, rather than somewhat weaker like most classes), since that means Cogmind can more easily acquire those better weapons and just stack them. I may instead give them all a third gun, a weaker machine gun-type weapon, which will mean they get some of that three-weapon volley time advantage that was making the Terminators scarier in Alpha 5. What do you think about that?
Quote from: zxc on January 27, 2016, 06:39:30 AM
Interesting suggestions. I still haven't stacked processors yet though it looks good. Diminishing returns to stacking sounds fine but your suggestion of 100/50/25 etc sounds a bit drastic. They still take up slots, and offer no integrity+coverage to protect you. And stacking processors ought to be powerful!
Stacking Adv. Targeting Computers is pretty OP. True they take up a slot, but I think that since you don't really lose them now, their bonus shouldn't shoot up quite so much--those original numbers were based on the mechanics under which you'd likely only have them for a little while, so they've gone out of whack.
On a couple of my runs now I've ended up stacking several of those and hitting everything so easily is... well... too easy :). It
really made offense seem like the best defense since I could cheaply engage at range and always hit while enemies were missing me left and right. I do think that style should still be viable--it's fun!--but it could stand to not be quite so awesome. Rather than diminishing returns, which I think is too complex and adds a new barrier to player comprehension (we discussed this earlier before the Great Hacking Overhaul), I would instead suggest just changing the better computers, so more like Basic/Imp./Adv./Exp. = 5/7/9/15 instead of the 4/8/12/20 we have now.
I would also look at all other processors in a similar light to see what might need to be adjusted.
zxc's right, though, they do still take up a slot so that puts a lower limit on what can be done here.
@Happylisk spoiler: Hahaha... that's a good idea. There is already one new type of robot I don't think any of you have met yet which you will have a pretty hard time hitting ::)
Quote
On a couple of my runs now I've ended up stacking several of those and hitting everything so easily is... well... too easy :). It really made offense seem like the best defense since I could cheaply engage at range and always hit while enemies were missing me left and right. I do think that style should still be viable--it's fun!--but it could stand to not be quite so awesome. Rather than diminishing returns, which I think is too complex and adds a new barrier to player comprehension (we discussed this earlier before the Great Hacking Overhaul), I would instead suggest just changing the better computers, so more like Basic/Imp./Adv./Exp. = 5/7/9/15 instead of the 4/8/12/20 we have now.
I always considered advanced targeting computer to be the best utility. Particle charger makes a good difference too (with EM). I still need to complete my volley simulator to have some actual numbers to back up those claims.
For the targeting computer, how about making the bonus non-stackable? It would increase the value of other utilities. Otherwise, it's still in your best interest to stack targeting computers and ignore the other utilities, unless the nerf is so severe that you ignore them completely instead.
It looks like the current options on the table re: targeting computers are diminishing returns; across the board nerfs; or making targeting computers non-stackable.
My vote is for option two, making vanilla targeting computers every so slightly better, and making all other variants less effective. This would still make extreme accuracy possible, at the cost of at least 3 slots if not 4. It would be odd if a Cogmind who wanted to be an expert marksman bot couldn't pull it off even if it set its mind to it.
As for hunters: In the old alphas, they were definitely pinatas for early gauss rifles, KE penetrators, and railguns to an extent. Removing their out of depth guns but giving them 3 kinetics might be a nice balance.
One downside to this: access to abundant railguns is very important in Research and Access. Sometimes I feel like my most effective volleys are 4-5 railguns with a target analyzer. Easy to oneshot grunts and programmers with that, without an extreme matter cost.
I agree on the usefulness of railgun-type weapons, something I like to stack with Target Analyzers as well. I wouldn't want to make them such an obviously preferred way of tackling the late-game, which they sort of were before.
I'm in favor of option 2 for targeting computers, for the reasons stated. Regarding the specific numbers...
- 4/8/12/20 is the current progression
- 5/7/9/15 was my first suggestion above, as an attempt to maintain some sense of improvement between them (at least +2...). I also really like the idea of improving low-level computers a bit, hence the 4 -> 5, but all the others would be lower.
- 6/7/8/12 would be another option, which makes low-level computers even more valuable--perhaps just the right amount, though this also makes "better" computers not so much better than those which came before.
In terms of stacking at the Advanced end of things, where most of the stacking will happen, right now in Alpha 6 3xAdv gives you +36%, while in the second progression it would be +27%, and the third would be +24%. The last probably sounds the best in terms of mechanical balance.
That is the option I prefer as well, if they are actually OP. I will be sad if they are nerfed before I get a run stacking them though.
Haha, Alpha 6 will be around for a while since Alpha 7 is going to take longer than the other releases, so you have plenty of time ;). I've ended up stacking them on most of my combat runs so far--seems like a common strategy under the new Processor coverage rules, one that's all too effective.
I think +24% is a good number for 3 advanced computers - on the other hand, I'm not so sure about 6/7 for basic and improved targeting computers. 3 basic computers would get you +18% which is not terribly less than 3 advanced (and very easy to quickly obtain). I think it'd make regular processors too strong and it would lessen the value of the more powerful ones.
What about 5/6/8/12? You'd be happy to find normal ones, improved ones would be an upgrade albeit a slight one, and you'd really feel the difference with advanced and experimental.
I was waiting to see if anyone else had a comment there, but looks like no, so I'm back to say yeah I like the 5/6/8/12.
Looks good to me too, but I haven't had time to take a stab at a6 yet.
Finally managed to get up to access using speed/hacky build in alpha 6 :). Died right in front of what I think was the exit. Lot of respect for speed runners. Speed/stealth runs are tense.
Score sheet:
Spoiler
Cogmind - Alpha 6
Name: Sherlockkat
---[ CORE DESTROYED ]---
Performance
-------------
Evolutions (9) 4500
Robots Destroyed (53) 265
Value Destroyed (1376) 1376
Prototype IDs (6) 120
Alien Tech Identified (0) 0
Bonus (0) 0
TOTAL SCORE: 6261
Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity 0/1600
Matter 63/300
Energy 50/50
System Corruption 11%
Temperature Cool (0)
Location -1/Access
Parts
-------
Power (3)
Propulsion (6)
Utility (14)
Hacking Suite
Advanced Signal Interpreter
Advanced ECM Suite
Weapon (2)
Inventory
-----------
Linear Accelerator
Q-Thruster
Improved Q-Thruster
Peak State
------------
Power
Light Quantum Reactor
Light Quantum Reactor
Anti-Matter Reactor
Propulsion
Improved Q-Thruster
Impulse Thruster Array
Q-Thruster
Utility
Advanced Signal Interpreter
Hacking Suite
Hacking Suite
Improved Sensor Array
Enhanced Optical Array
Advanced Transmission Jammer
Improved ECM Suite
Advanced Weight Redist. System
Weapon
Enhanced Quantum Rifle
[Rating: 96]
Favorites
-----------
Power Light Nuclear Core
Engine Light Ion Engine
Power Core Light Nuclear Core
Reactor Anti-Matter Reactor
Propulsion Flight Unit
Leg Aluminum Leg
Hover Unit Aerolev Unit
Flight Unit Flight Unit
Utility Hacking Suite
Device Improved ECM Suite
Processor Melee Analysis Suite
Hackware Hacking Suite
Protection Light Armor Plating
Weapon Improved Datajack
Energy Gun Medium Laser
Energy Cannon Advanced Beam Cannon
Ballistic Gun Assault Rifle
Ballistic Cannon Assault Cannon
Launcher Rocket Launcher
Impact Weapon Powered Hammer
Slashing Weapon Katana
Special Melee Weapon Improved Datajack
Stats
-------
Bonus Breakdown 0
Classes Destroyed 12
Worker 4
Builder 1
Tunneler 1
Recycler 8
Mechanic 1
Operator 5
Watcher 3
Swarmer 8
Grunt 15
Duelist 1
Sentry 5
Hunter 1
NPCs Destroyed 0
Best Kill Streak 6
Combat Bots Only 6
Matter Collected 1420
Salvage Created 2055
Parts Attached 106
Power 24
Propulsion 28
Utility 24
Weapon 30
Parts Lost 44
Power 11
Propulsion 16
Utility 10
Weapon 7
Average Slot Usage (%) 76
Naked Turns 1
Spaces Moved 6235
Fastest Speed (%) 526
Average Speed (%) 289
Slowest Speed (%) 25
Overloaded Moves 113
Propulsion Burnouts 0
Targets Rammed 2
Cave-ins Triggered 0
Teleports 0
Heaviest Build 56
Greatest Overweight (x) 7
Average Overweight (x) 0
Largest Inventory 4
Most Items Carried 4
Average Items Carried 3
Core Damage Taken 2523
Average Core Remaining (%) 82
Depth 10 Exit 57
Depth 9 Exit 59
Depth 8 Exit 53
Depth 7 Exit 100
Depth 6 Exit 100
Depth 5 Exit 100
Depth 4 Exit 94
Depth 3 Exit 95
Depth 2 Exit 81
Volleys Fired 140
Largest 2
Hottest 94
Shots Fired 229
Gun 153
Cannon 70
Launcher 6
Special 0
Kinetic 140
Thermal 77
Explosive 6
Electromagnetic 6
Shots Hit Robots 186
Core Hits 72
Overload Shots 0
Energy Bleed 0
Heat Surge 0
Short Circuit 0
Meltdown 0
Melee Attacks 74
Impact 0
Slashing 28
Piercing 0
Damage Inflicted 3386
Projectiles 2388
Explosions 267
Melee 728
Ramming 3
Kinetic 1549
Thermal 774
Explosive 267
Electromagnetic 65
Impact 0
Slashing 728
Piercing 0
Self-Inflicted Damage 121
Shots 2
Rammed 2
Highest Temperature 313
Average Temperature 45
Shutdowns 0
Energy Bleed 1
Interference 0
Matter Decay 0
Short Circuit 0
Damage (minor) 0
Damage (major) 0
Damage (core) 0
Highest Corruption 11
Average Corruption 3
Message Errors 1
Parts Rejected 0
Data loss (map) 1
Data loss (database) 1
Misfires 0
Misdirections 1
Targeting Errors 0
Weapon Failures 0
Depth 7 End 1
Depth 2 End 1
Haulers Intercepted 0
Robots Corrupted 0
Robots Melted 0
Power Chain Reactions 0
Tactical Retreats 33
Communications Jammed 169
Parts Field Recycled 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Merge Repaired 0
Drone Launches 0
Drone Recoveries 0
Derelicts Assembled 0
Traps Triggered 0
Indirectly 0
Trap Hack Attempts 0
Triggered 0
Disarmed 0
Reprogrammed 0
Reused 0
Machines Hacked 28
Terminals 24
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 1
Scanalyzers 0
Garrison Access 3
Total Hacks 80
Successful 29
Failed 51
Catastrophic 11
Database Lockouts 0
Manual 31
Unauthorized 59
Terminals 74
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 1
Scanalyzers 0
Garrison Access 5
Terminal Hacks 24
Record 0
Part Schematic 0
Robot Schematic 0
Robot Analysis 0
Prototype ID Bank 1
Open Door 0
Level Access Points 4
Branch Access Points 0
Emergency Access Points 1
Machine Index 0
Terminal Index 0
Fabricator Index 0
Repair Station Index 0
Recycling Unit Index 0
Scanalyzer Index 0
Garrison Index 0
Alert Level 3
Unreport Threat 4
Locate Traps 3
Disarm Traps 0
Reprogram Traps 2
Dispatch Records 0
Maintenance Status 0
Security Status 0
Surveillance Status 0
Patrol Status 1
Transport Status 1
Investigation Status 0
Extermination Status 0
Reinforcement Status 0
Assault Status 0
Recall Investigation 0
Recall Extermination 0
Recall Reinforcements 0
Recall Assault 0
Hauler Manifests 0
Registered Components 0
Registered Prototypes 0
Zone Layout 2
Sector Layout 2
Machine Controls 0
Hacking Detections 21
Full Trace Events 4
Feedback Events 0
Feedback Corruption 0
Feedback Part Disabled 0
Feedback Blocked 0
Garrisons Disabled 2
Garrisons Compromised 0
Robot Schematics Acquired 0
Robots Built 0
Total Robot Build Rating 0
Robot Fabrication Matter 0
Robot Fabrication Time 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Built 0
Total Part Build Rating 0
Part Fabrication Matter 0
Part Fabrication Time 0
Parts Repaired 0
Part Repair Time 0
Parts Recycled 0
Recycled Matter 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Scanalyzed 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Damaged 0
Robot Analysis Total 0
Robots Rewired 0
Robots Hacked 2
Non-combat 9
Combat 2
Parse 0
Link 0
Rebooted 5
Overloaded 4
Assimilated 0
Manual 0
Secondary 2
Robot Hack Failures 10
Allies Hacked 0
Hacks Repelled 0
Total Allies 1
Largest Group 1
Highest-Rated Group 7
Highest-Rated Ally 7
Total Orders 1
STAY 0
GOTO 0
ROAM 0
FOLLOW 1
GUARD 0
AID 0
BUILD 0
TUNNEL 0
DROP 0
PICKUP 0
COLLECT 0
EXPLORE 0
RETURN 0
Terraforming Orders 0
Walls Built 0
Walls Tunneled 0
Ally Attacks 0
Total Damage 0
Kills 0
Allies Corrupted 0
Allies Melted 0
Peak Influence 286
Average Influence 53
Final Influence 0
Maximum Alert Level 1
Low Security (%) 91
Level 1 8
Level 2 0
Level 3 0
Level 4 0
Level 5 0
Squads Dispatched 23
Investigation 4
Extermination 3
Reinforcement 16
Assault 0
Garrison 0
Exploration Rate (%) 19
Regions Visited 11
Garrisons Visited 0
Relays Disabled 0
Generators Disabled 0
Network Hubs Disabled 0
Turns Passed 4318
Depth 11 63
Depth 10 756
Depth 9 805
Depth 8 825
Depth 7 284
Depth 6 145
Depth 5 76
Depth 4 293
Depth 3 242
Depth 2 345
Depth 1 484
Scrapyard 63
Materials 2386
Factory 798
Research 587
Access 484
Prototype IDs
---------------
Aerolev Unit
Improved VTOL Module
Experimental Cesium-ion Thruster
Improved Q-Thruster
Precision Beam Rifle
Heavy EM Shotgun
Advanced Beam Cannon
Improved Assault Rifle
Enhanced Autogun
Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None
Game
------
Seed: 1454782162
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 82 min
Sessions: 1
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 149
ASCII: 1
Keyboard: 1
Movement: Numpad
Fullscreen: 0
Font: 12/Terminus
Map View: 83x54
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Materials was messy. I got into a lot of trouble due to my laissez-"let's go with the flow''-faire attitude. But, it is materials after all. I just blew everything up and it was fine. Got my flight units and ECM suites.
Factory was a breeze. I assimilated an operator and he was a total bro. He was with me for 3 floors and revealed every secret door and every trap in my line of sight. Extremely useful. I forgot that he wasn't as quick as I was and ran past a sentry. Poor guy got one-shotted as he tried to follow :(. Gathered a critical mass of hacking utilities and picked up better flight units.
I think I am starting to understand research after dying there couple of times. In stark contrast to factory, research is almost linear with very few loops and labyrinthine. The shortest path between any two points is almost never a straight line. I managed to hack the exit locations in both -3 and -2 and I still had a hard time getting to the exit as I had nothing that could blow through walls. Ended up flowing through windy passages and got into a lot more trouble than I should. I blundered a little bit towards the end and lost my flight units to a couple of sentries guarding the exit. This was probably the start of my downfall.
Access was very factoryesqe. Huge corridors and quite loopy. I managed to gather a couple of flight units. But, I wasn't as fast I used to be and lost a couple of key utilities. I wasn't able to find any terminals. So, no luck with hacking. Blew up an energy cycler. That made them mad. Soon, I was chased by programmers and other misc nasties.
Spoiler
Died on front of something that looked like a phase wall. It was guarded by two behemoths and two hunters. I think that was the exit. So close...
General thoughts on hacking:
Hacking feels quite viable and powerful as long as you are able to make use of it :p. One thing is that scanalyzers, fabricators, recycling units and repairing units have marginal use and encountering one is always a bummer. I am always thinking "Man, if only it was a terminal or a garrison..". I am guessing this will change in the future. I think garrisons are cool because you can seal them and that reduces the AI's options which is great. Also, question: This quote is from Kyzrati's garrison access post.
QuoteThat said, there is another advantage to destroying them: For each Garrison Access taken out of commission, Programmer dispatch frequency is further reduced.
I know that Kyzrati said this was not the case in the stream, but does sealing the garrison access points reduce prog dispatch? Do you need to destroy them? Shouldn't sealing have the same effect?
Access(Main) is the god hack that we all try to pull off. But, even the regular terminal hacks which reveal local information are quite powerful. The hack that reveals secret doors is great and saved my butt quite a few times in research. The one that reveals patrol status is also good. Question: Does enumerate(surveillance) reveal watcher locations? In my opinion, watchers are easily one of the scariest enemies and they can be quite tricky to manage when you don't have transmission jammers. Trying to decide which way to flee when a watcher emits a distress signal can be quite tricky, especially if you dodged patrols in the first place. Then, you can't run back either.
@Kyzrati: I initially planned to stay off Cogmind until alpha 7. But, the mechanic changes were far too tempting and I played more than I intended too. Now, that I managed to get to access, I think I can stop playing for a while. I will probably skip the next alpha as my life is going to get a bit more chaotic in the next few months. Good luck with alpha 7.
p.s: I don't think the score sheet was uploaded as I was offline. So I am attaching it here.
@Sherlockkat
Your observations of research and access match my initial thoughts from some months back. The structure of research really makes it tough for cogmind, with any build. You get way too much alert level with combat and the labyrinthine layout leads to forced encounters with stealth. Probably best in research is a hover build with good ability to both fight and stealth around. Access is definitely harder than post-Alpha Challenge. It seems right I think.
Re: non-terminal machines, they are definitely much less useful than terminals. They are hard to make use of at all, even with some hacking items to make life easier. I think K has stuff planned, otherwise this would be a major target of rebalancing I would think. Even at the risk of making them too powerful, it may be better than the situation now where they are nearly entirely ignored. At times I make use of them, but it's far from every game, or even every second game. Consider how much needs to go right as a speedy hacky build (which should make more use of this than other builds): you need to acquire a worthwhile schematic; usually this means you need to have a useful low level part like a hacking suite, and then successfully scan it (often will take multiple machines and risks destroying the item); you need a matter container, and it needs matter; you need to successfully fabricate the item (often multiple machines, again); and you need to stick around for a number of turns or return later. I rarely get past the first stage, which is to get a useful schematic. Level 2/3 scan machines and fabricators are too difficult to get anything done, which limits possible items to low level ones. It so happens that low level items are generally just not that useful, except for hacking suites, storage units and flight units. I usually need to have the item first to scan it, except when lucky enough to get the schematic by terminal or the force hack. It's possible I'm wrong about the current utility of non-terminal machines, as I haven't specifically targeted them in my runs (opportunity cost has always seemed too high), but I'm also yet to see anyone make good use of them.
What is the reasoning behind having two hacks to seal a garrison instead of one?
Quote.....the labyrinthine layout leads to forced encounters with stealth
I wonder whether this problem could be solved via item design. For instance, a common late/mid game item which gives you "+X% chance for enemies not to notice you" with fancy name like "quantum decohorence generator" or something like that and it can stack. This wouldn't be all that useful for a combat build because you would be far too slow to rely on this. But, when you are zipping around at 25 speed.... This can let us dive through groups of enemies which is what sometimes navigating through research as a speed demon comes down to.
Re non-terminal machines: @zxc: I agree with pretty much everything you said. The scan/fab loop is pretty cumbersome given that a single low-level item is never going to change the flow of the game. I have no concrete ideas to improve the system. But, I think I would like the system if the balance was such that it would let us craft one or two off-curve items without the tedium per game just so that we can iron the kinks in our build.
QuoteWhat is the reasoning behind having two hacks to seal a garrison instead of one?
I wasn't suggesting any changes in that direction. Was merely curious what the interaction between sealing garrisons and prog dispatch is.
Quote from: Sherlockkat on February 06, 2016, 03:47:21 PM
Lot of respect for speed runners.
Agreed! Much more tense in my opinion, without a bunch of armor and weapons to hide behind :P. I've been trying to do faster runs in recent weeks and end up falling back into combat mode most of the time... It takes a brave Cogmind to do a speed run. Sounds funny to say that since as zxc puts it you just run from everything ;)
Quote from: Sherlockkat on February 06, 2016, 03:47:21 PM
I assimilated an operator and he was a total bro.
That's good to hear, since I haven't done that yet and should soon. They have so many benefits now, if you can just keep them alive.
You were quite close to winning!
Quote from: Sherlockkat on February 06, 2016, 03:47:21 PM
This quote is from Kyzrati's garrison access post.
QuoteThat said, there is another advantage to destroying them: For each Garrison Access taken out of commission, Programmer dispatch frequency is further reduced.
I know that Kyzrati said this was not the case in the stream, but does sealing the garrison access points reduce prog dispatch? Do you need to destroy them? Shouldn't sealing have the same effect?
Okay, first of all, sorry about the misinformation. The blog post is of course correct (it always trumps whatever I think I remember at some later date :P)--destroying a garrison
does reduce the Programmer dispatch frequency. Man, I really should destroy those things more often! And actually, yes, sealing them has the exact same effect, so do it if you can.
About the other machines, they aren't as useful but there are plans to improve them, gradually anyway. They've been pretty low priority so I'm getting to them bit by bit. At least brute force hacks gave some of them secondary uses, and another one is coming with Alpha 7 that will make Recycling Units somewhat more useful. Still lots more to do on that front, because I too generally pass up other machines except for the very occasional coincidental need.
So yeah as zxc puts it the opportunity cost for these machines is currently too high, something that will certainly change in future releases. (Fabricating in particular is an area that will be examined in detail, but as a secondary/supporting feature I want to reconsider the design after most other elements are already in place. But also remember that when you fabricate something, you usually don't just get one of them--a single build run will create several of the same item, or even robot.)
Quote from: zxc on February 06, 2016, 06:20:05 PM
What is the reasoning behind having two hacks to seal a garrison instead of one?
One is the direct hack, which is difficult but allows you to seal it unnoticed and has no effect on your presence.
All brute force hacks increase the alert level, quite a lot in the case of a garrison jam, but this is something you won't really know yet unless you're paying very close attention to alert level (later there will be NPCs that provide you with this information).
There are three ways to disable a garrison access, which vary from relatively easy but with significant alert drawbacks, to relatively difficult but no other drawbacks:
1. Blow it up :D
2. Jam it.
3. Seal it.
Quote from: Sherlockkat on February 06, 2016, 03:47:21 PM
Question: Does enumerate(surveillance) reveal watcher locations?
That's exactly what it does, but its usefulness is only so great because Watchers move a lot, so your intel will go stale before too long.
Quote from: Sherlockkat on February 06, 2016, 03:47:21 PM
Trying to decide which way to flee when a watcher emits a distress signal can be quite tricky, especially if you dodged patrols in the first place.
I have a new feature planned that you might like (although I haven't confirmed it yet, I've gotten close to implementing it several times but it keeps getting put off as lower priority): When distress signals go out they'll trace a path on the screen showing the direction of the signal.
Quote from: Sherlockkat on February 06, 2016, 07:54:03 PM
Quote.....the labyrinthine layout leads to forced encounters with stealth
I wonder whether this problem could be solved via item design. For instance, a common late/mid game item which gives you "+X% chance for enemies not to notice you" with fancy name like "quantum decohorence generator" or something like that and it can stack.
Even before alpha release I had an idea to possibly convert or enhance ECM mechanics by way of a system like this, but it's been on the back burner for a very long time.
There are multiple specialized utility mechanics (some of which don't exist yet) that I want to look into later, possibly altogether as a group which is one reason nothing's been done on that front yet. In terms of design, I'd like to get much of the main world complete before using some new mechanics or adjustments to existing ones to smooth out any rough edges.
QuoteIt takes a brave Cogmind to do a speed run. Sounds funny to say that since as zxc puts it you just run from everything ;)
zxc wasn't kidding. You literally just run from everything. Getting shot at is sometimes the best thing. That's 2 full turns before they can act. At 30 speed, you can move roughly 8~9 spaces and you are out of their sight. The ECMs takes care of the rest. True story: The bit which is guarded by behemoths and sentries at extension. I went there twice as a speed build and just flew past the lot, no effs given and took no damage.
QuoteI assimilated an operator and he was a total bro.
That's good to hear, since I haven't done that yet and should soon. They have so many benefits now, if you can just keep them alive.
You were quite close to winning!
Bullying operators as a speed build is the best. It is especially hilarious when they are running up a one tile corridor to lock the terminal down and you overtake them and they can't get past you and try to run all the way back to find an alternate route :).
Good to know about the garrisons. Sealing them is not that difficult. You just need 2~3 hacking suites.
Quote
I have a new feature planned that you might like (although I haven't confirmed it yet, I've gotten close to implementing it several times but it keeps getting put off as lower priority): When distress signals go out they'll trace a path on the screen showing the direction of the signal.
Wait!! Watchers emit directional signals?? The feature sounds awesome. I wonder whether it makes it too easy to deal with watchers though. Part of what makes them scary is not knowing which way to run.
ECM suites and the "+x% for enemies not to notice you" can co-exist, no? (btw, what does ECM stand for?)
Request: Would you be able to upload my score sheet ot the high score list :D? Was offline and I am fairly certain that it didn't get uploaded.
Awesome dodging at the Extension junction :).
Spoiler
Did you take on the Cetus Guard after that? Or just detour to Factory?
Quote from: Sherlockkat on February 06, 2016, 09:11:32 PM
Wait!! Watchers emit directional signals?? The feature sounds awesome. I wonder whether it makes it too easy to deal with watchers though. Part of what makes them scary is not knowing which way to run.
Yeah, I agree it might detract a little from the game. Maybe that feature needs to be enabled by a utility (an existing one since it's too small an advantage for a unique utility).
Quote from: Sherlockkat on February 06, 2016, 09:11:32 PM
ECM suites and the "+x% for enemies not to notice you" can co-exist, no? (btw, what does ECM stand for?)
Yeah, probably co-exist. That's what I have in my notes on looking at them again. (Haven't gone over that stuff for months.) ECM (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_countermeasure).
Quote from: Sherlockkat on February 06, 2016, 09:11:32 PM
Request: Would you be able to upload my score sheet ot the high score list :D? Was offline and I am fairly certain that it didn't get uploaded.
No problem! It'll be there for tomorrow's update.
Regarding extension junction and beyond:
Spoiler
I barely survived the Cetus guards when I was a combat build. They are such tanks. Maybe I was using the wrong weapons. I don't think my speed build would have been able to take them on :) . Though, Do I have to fight them? I wonder....hmm...ideas...will try later
QuoteNo problem! It'll be there for tomorrow's update.
Awesome!!
Spoiler
Heh, yeah as a speed build you would be hard pressed to take them on in direct combat. That was a silly question by me :P
You probably need to be a fully decked out combat build to reliably take them out, and you'll probably still get mauled for it, but that's okay because the salvage is worth it ;)
Surviving a flyby would be pretty risky... but as of Alpha 6 there are areas beyond the Cetus, so it might be worth it. I don't think anyone's done any real exploring out that way yet.
In my last run I tried force jam on a level 2 garrison. It failed three times and I decided to not risk a fourth. It got me wondering - if it's so hard, then trying to seal it, which is even harder, would almost never be worth it. The alert level gain will dissipate very quickly avoiding combat.
I actually have a love/hate relationship with watchers. They have excellent items like sensors and signal interpreters, so killing them is a great idea. Their signal jammers are useful too but they make the watchers far more dangerous when you have sensors. However, you can also be confident nothing is around if a watcher spots you and doesn't sound a distress signal. That can be very beneficial when running without sensors.
Failing a jam three times is pretty unlucky, since there's an 80% base chance, though it'll be more difficult for higher level garrisons so that might have been part of it.
Sealing it is doable if you have some hackware, but yes that strategy is only intended for specialists. (Base chance is 30%, so at a level 1 garrison you can pretty easily get above a 50% chance which you should be able to pull off before they detect and trace.)
Quote
However, you can also be confident nothing is around if a watcher spots you and doesn't sound a distress signal. That can be very beneficial when running without sensors.
That's what I use them for :P. If you see them send out a message then it's time to make sure you're in a defensible position and ready for combat.
Quote from: Kyzrati on February 07, 2016, 01:09:10 AM
That's what I use them for :P. If you see them send out a message then it's time to make sure you're in a defensible position and ready for combat. run pre-emptively
Right, right :). I meant for my usual combat strategy, whereas for stealth runs it's definitely time to head in a different direction. With combat I just plow through everything since I prefer to keep my bearing steady.
I keep touring the factory and no sign of extension. Guess I have to start doing some Access(Branch) hacks if I want to do some sight seeing.
Quote
I keep touring the factory and no sign of extension. Guess I have to start doing some Access(Branch) hacks if I want to do some sight seeing.
Spoiler
I found the entrance in -4, using Access(Branch). Warning: this place is tough.
I recruited 07, but he promptly charged 2 behemoths and died heroically. I'm curious about what he's supposed to do, so I'll have to try again. Next time, I'll clear the passage before I free him.
And finally...I found lots of hackware to play with! I also found medium regenerating armor, which is amazing. I hacked the alert level down to low security in the hub, and extracted a lot of lore.
I found those big generators, and I knew from their angry sound that it would be best not to be nearby when blowing them up. I explored the place a bit before blowing one from (what I thought would be) a safe distance. Holy crap.
Then I fought the cavalry, and I never managed to even bring one down. It didn't help that they blew another generator near me (and them, but they're plenty sturdy enough to survive it). I thought I'd never make it alive, but somehow they didn't pursue very aggressively and I made it to the Research exit with 125 health. I promptly died in Research since the only weapon I had was a matter destroyer, which leaves nothing behind.
A very fun run, all-in-all.
I'm very curious about what that "reduced security" actually does. I'm guessing it means the subsequent levels have less patrols or less dispatches.
@Decker
You're the first person who's reportedly visited that far. Sounds like the difficulty is just about right. (That said, it's going to get a little harder because the Hunter AI was messed up and those guys can normally even shoot through walls, so have fun with that :P. That said, there are other benefits you haven't discovered yet which can tip the odds in your favor, too...) As for the destruction bonus, I tried to make it somewhat apparent from the wording without outright saying it, but either way there will be some other methods to learn exactly what that means soon enough.
There are still several other big things going on that have yet to be discovered ;D
So, Extension/Hub_04(d)..
Spoiler
I switched back to playing combat builds so that I can explore extension a bit more.
There is this locked door in Cetus leading to the mainframe. Not sure what it does. I had O7 with me. I wasn't able to hack the door. So, well, I blew it up (I had no idea cannons were this good, I used to avoid them because of their impact on salvage). O7 had some dialogue but nothing came of it. I also damaged the machine a little bit. Wonder whether that has something to do with nothing happening. Second time around, I was able to hack it, but O7 was already dead.
I built those enhanced grunts and those guys wreck everything. If there is ever going to be a viable ally build, I feel like it needs to be based off these prototype units. Very durable and deal good damage. It is a bit hard to control allies. They keep jumping in front me and I can't fire. That kinda sucks coz I am way better at tanking damage than they are. Also, there is friendly fire, no?
Hub_04(d) was quite the place. I have been there twice now. I did something really stupid the first time around. I had auto-ascend on. The exit was right next to the network hub. I thought I can blow it up and get out before they can mount a defense. Except, I accidentally walked into the stairs and ascended without blowing up the hub. So dumb. The second time around, I blew up the hub but was quite far from the exit. And then...they showed up. Holy crap, those prototypes are insane. I did not make it out.
What does blowing the network hub do? The message wasn't very clear. Intrusion management? Is it referring to garrisons?
p.s: My log says I spent 1034 turns in armory. Bug?
Spoiler
Where is Hub_04(d)? I have yet to find it. Just let me know this.. is it a stairway extension sitting out in the open? Or is it accessed in a different manner (such as a garrison)
Spoiler
Quote from: Shobalk on February 26, 2016, 01:40:01 PM
Spoiler
Where is Hub_04(d)? I have yet to find it. Just let me know this.. is it a stairway extension sitting out in the open? Or is it accessed in a different manner (such as a garrison)
Hub_04(d) is located deep within the extension branch which you can access from factory.
Detailed directions:
Spoiler
You first find the extension branch in the factory. You have to access the Cetus branch in the extension. Watch out though. There a bunch of exits which leads back to factory/research. Signal interpreters are handy if it is your first time down there. Then, then there is this small hub area that you can access from the rightmost corner of Cetus. The exits in that hub area lead to Hub_04(d). Go in armed to the tooth. Extension/Cetus/Hub ain't easy.
Spoiler
Quote from: Sherlockkat on February 26, 2016, 12:02:17 PM
p.s: My log says I spent 1034 turns in armory. Bug?
Oops. Thanks for letting me know, that's a bug. I just looked and the turn records skipped over Archives, which was an unplanned map, so it recorded your Hub visit turns to the Armory. There's no impact other than this; I'll have it fixed for the next release.
The Network Hub message isn't 100% clear, since it's in theme, but in Alpha 7 there's a place you'll be able to learn more specifically what that does if you can't already guess. It can be quite useful (hence the heavy defenses). True there are so many systems now that guessing these things can be difficult. For now I've changed the message to
ALERT: Network intrusion management efficiency reduced by 5%.Ally builds will be more viable in the future. Still working towards that, but yeah Enhanced Grunts can carry you pretty far if you take them back to the main complex. Though controllability is not likely to change--allies are in most cases meant to be just an autonomous boost to your capabilities, since we don't want to really get into micromanagement. You either have them or you don't, and you can indirectly control how things turn out via their composition and supporting parts like remote shields and hacking. (It would be nice if you could set some overall tactics and allied AI would stick to that, but the AI is not really built to handle such a thing...)
Recycling SpoilerSpoiler
Is it still possible to get into Recycling if an Operator locks the terminal in front of the door?
(https://i.imgur.com/iosJN0p.png)
* Not pictured, the terminal ;) I blew it up trying to see if I could work around from the rear or rocket through the door. However, it was already locked by an operator.
Spoiler
There is one way, but it relies on luck so doesn't really count.
This has hit other players before (also in other circumstances), and I've been debating whether to never base Operators out of door-opening terminals. It's a tough decision since I also like the fact that things don't always go according to plan (plus you sometimes have the option of taking the Operator first, or reaching the terminal first).
Punching through the wall isn't usually an option, since you can't easily get hold of weapons capable of taking out a reinforced wall.
Spoiler
I'm going to argue that the current method of getting into Recycling also relies on luck ;)
I'm 0-3 trying to get into Recycling before being locked out by an operator. You usually only get 1 shot at these guys before they're out of range or lock the terminal.
Do you have a hard time getting into Recycling, or is there a key piece that I'm missing?
I've been going into Storage with a Array/Signal Interpreter to help get ready for operators, but so far my initial shots fail to kill them and they lock the terminal.
Here's a video (https://youtu.be/KCHx5_kbS8U?t=3767) where I engage an operator and miss him twice. I think he ends up locking the door that I see @1:06:27, but I'm not sure.
Quote from: Kyzrati on March 05, 2016, 10:51:13 PM
There is one way, but it relies on luck so doesn't really count.
This has hit other players before (also in other circumstances), and I've been debating whether to never base Operators out of door-opening terminals. It's a tough decision since I also like the fact that things don't always go according to plan (plus you sometimes have the option of taking the Operator first, or reaching the terminal first).
Punching through the wall isn't usually an option, since you can't easily get hold of weapons capable of taking out a reinforced wall.
Yes, we're just going to spoiler this whole thread...
Huh, zero for three is terrible considering there's only a 25% chance that an Operator will even be stationed there on a given run! When I've passed it's usually not protected or locked, which is more in line with that value.
Part of the reason I wouldn't immediately respond to this situation by simply making an Operator impossible there is that under the right circumstances Recycling can be a very good route to take, enough so that some players may want to always go that way when possible, so I don't think it should be guaranteed possible. It's more like a bonus "if the stars align and you can manage it" side route.
Guess who ascended :). A speed win, of course. It was only a matter of time though. I had been getting to access almost every other game. Just had to get a little bit lucky.
Access was tricky. I hacked the exit location, but I am pretty sure I would have died if I had just made a beeline to it. The most direct route was guarded by a small army. There was a lot of shooting through walls and bolting through single tile corridors in order to lose my enthusiastic harem of programmers and hunters.
Spoiler
In the end, I ran into this big dead end which was separating me from the exit with a pack of hunters on my tail. Luckily, I had a fusion bomb launcher AND a point singularity launcher and just blew up everything between me and the exit.
Question: Is blowing up the casing the only way to access the exit? Is there no non-violent way to open the casing?
This was an interesting/weird run. I had a lot of hacking gear but was actually quite unlucky with my hacks. I also had no good sensing equipment and was running blind almost all the time. I think a good deal of my success was due to equipping defensive gear like reaction control systems, maneuvering thrusters, cloaking devices, focal shields, em shields, propulsion shielding and light armors. This worked well in conjunction with my speed. There were plenty of situations where I had no options and just had to dive through enemies and I would have fared poorly without all that defense.
Score sheet:
Spoiler
Cogmind - Alpha 6
Name: Sherlockkat
---[ ESCAPED! ]---
Performance
-------------
Evolutions (9) 4500
Robots Destroyed (34) 170
Value Destroyed (792) 792
Prototype IDs (9) 180
Alien Tech Identified (0) 0
Bonus (9186) 9186
TOTAL SCORE: 14828
Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity 1189/1600
Matter 131/300
Energy 28/50
System Corruption 2%
Temperature Cool (2)
Location Surface
Parts
-------
Power (2)
Propulsion (6)
Improved Q-Thruster
Experimental Cesium-ion Thruster
Utility (15)
EM Shield
Hacking Suite
Advanced Visual Processing Unit
Hacking Suite
Improved Focal Shield
Long-range Sensor Array
Weapon (2)
Point Singularity Launcher
Inventory
-----------
Nuclear Pulse Array
Peak State
------------
Power
Light Anti-Matter Reactor
Light Anti-Matter Reactor
Propulsion
Nuclear Pulse Array
Field Propulsion Drive
Experimental Cesium-ion Thruster
Improved Cesium-ion Thruster
Improved Q-Thruster
Utility
Cloaking Device
Long-range Sensor Array
Improved Focal Shield
Hacking Suite
Advanced Visual Processing Unit
Hacking Suite
Hacking Suite
Experimental Heat Sink
Advanced Hacking Suite
Hacking Suite
Improved System Shield
EM Shield
Advanced Reaction Control System
Weapon
Kinetic Spear
Nova Cannon
[Rating: 127]
Favorites
-----------
Power Improved Ion Engine
Engine Improved Ion Engine
Power Core Light Nuclear Core
Reactor Light Anti-Matter Reactor
Propulsion Improved VTOL Module
Leg Aluminum Leg
Hover Unit Experimental Airjet
Flight Unit Improved VTOL Module
Utility Hacking Suite
Device Advanced Sensor Array
Processor Advanced Visual Processing Unit
Hackware Hacking Suite
Protection Improved Propulsion Shielding
Weapon Heavy Plasma Cannon
Energy Gun EM Pulse Gun
Energy Cannon Heavy Plasma Cannon
Ballistic Gun Light Assault Rifle
Launcher Long-range Missile Launcher
Slashing Weapon Scythe
Piercing Weapon Kinetic Spear
Special Melee Weapon Datajack
Stats
-------
Bonus Breakdown 9186
Win 3000
Fast Win 6186
Classes Destroyed 8
Builder 2
Tunneler 2
Hauler 1
Recycler 2
Operator 2
Watcher 2
Swarmer 19
Grunt 4
NPCs Destroyed 0
Best Kill Streak 7
Combat Bots Only 6
Matter Collected 1065
Salvage Created 847
Parts Attached 87
Power 13
Propulsion 22
Utility 27
Weapon 25
Parts Lost 42
Power 8
Propulsion 11
Utility 14
Weapon 9
Average Slot Usage (%) 82
Naked Turns 2
Spaces Moved 6423
Fastest Speed (%) 555
Average Speed (%) 377
Slowest Speed (%) 71
Overloaded Moves 8
Propulsion Burnouts 0
Targets Rammed 3
Cave-ins Triggered 2
Teleports 0
Heaviest Build 48
Greatest Overweight (x) 9
Average Overweight (x) 0
Largest Inventory 4
Most Items Carried 4
Average Items Carried 3
Core Damage Taken 1032
Average Core Remaining (%) 84
Depth 10 Exit 52
Depth 9 Exit 76
Depth 8 Exit 63
Depth 7 Exit 100
Depth 6 Exit 96
Depth 5 Exit 93
Depth 4 Exit 98
Depth 3 Exit 95
Depth 2 Exit 98
Depth 1 Exit 74
Volleys Fired 140
Largest 2
Hottest 155
Shots Fired 175
Gun 103
Cannon 60
Launcher 12
Special 0
Kinetic 84
Thermal 60
Explosive 12
Electromagnetic 19
Shots Hit Robots 83
Core Hits 50
Overload Shots 0
Energy Bleed 0
Heat Surge 0
Short Circuit 0
Meltdown 0
Melee Attacks 29
Impact 0
Slashing 5
Piercing 6
Damage Inflicted 2995
Projectiles 644
Explosions 2034
Melee 313
Ramming 4
Kinetic 431
Thermal 106
Explosive 2034
Electromagnetic 107
Impact 0
Slashing 123
Piercing 190
Self-Inflicted Damage 237
Shots 3
Rammed 3
Highest Temperature 227
Average Temperature 54
Shutdowns 0
Energy Bleed 0
Interference 0
Matter Decay 0
Short Circuit 0
Damage (minor) 0
Damage (major) 0
Damage (core) 0
Highest Corruption 2
Average Corruption 1
Message Errors 1
Parts Rejected 0
Data loss (map) 1
Data loss (database) 0
Misfires 0
Misdirections 0
Targeting Errors 0
Weapon Failures 0
Depth 6 End 1
Depth 5 End 2
Depth 1 End 2
Haulers Intercepted 1
Robots Corrupted 0
Robots Melted 0
Power Chain Reactions 0
Tactical Retreats 24
Communications Jammed 0
Parts Field Recycled 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Merge Repaired 0
Drone Launches 0
Drone Recoveries 0
Derelicts Assembled 0
Traps Triggered 0
Indirectly 0
Trap Hack Attempts 0
Triggered 0
Disarmed 0
Reprogrammed 0
Reused 0
Machines Hacked 26
Terminals 21
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Garrison Access 5
Total Hacks 43
Successful 12
Failed 31
Catastrophic 11
Database Lockouts 0
Manual 22
Unauthorized 25
Terminals 35
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Garrison Access 8
Terminal Hacks 8
Record 0
Part Schematic 0
Robot Schematic 0
Robot Analysis 0
Prototype ID Bank 1
Open Door 0
Level Access Points 4
Branch Access Points 0
Emergency Access Points 1
Machine Index 0
Terminal Index 0
Fabricator Index 0
Repair Station Index 0
Recycling Unit Index 0
Scanalyzer Index 0
Garrison Index 0
Alert Level 0
Unreport Threat 0
Locate Traps 1
Disarm Traps 0
Reprogram Traps 0
Dispatch Records 0
Maintenance Status 0
Security Status 0
Surveillance Status 0
Patrol Status 0
Transport Status 0
Investigation Status 0
Extermination Status 0
Reinforcement Status 0
Assault Status 0
Recall Investigation 0
Recall Extermination 0
Recall Reinforcements 0
Recall Assault 0
Hauler Manifests 0
Registered Components 0
Registered Prototypes 0
Zone Layout 0
Sector Layout 1
Machine Controls 0
Hacking Detections 20
Full Trace Events 1
Feedback Events 0
Feedback Corruption 0
Feedback Part Disabled 0
Feedback Blocked 0
Garrisons Disabled 4
Garrisons Compromised 0
Robot Schematics Acquired 0
Robots Built 0
Total Robot Build Rating 0
Robot Fabrication Matter 0
Robot Fabrication Time 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Built 0
Total Part Build Rating 0
Part Fabrication Matter 0
Part Fabrication Time 0
Parts Repaired 0
Part Repair Time 0
Parts Recycled 0
Recycled Matter 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Scanalyzed 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Damaged 0
Robot Analysis Total 0
Robots Rewired 0
Robots Hacked 0
Non-combat 0
Combat 0
Parse 0
Link 0
Rebooted 0
Overloaded 0
Assimilated 0
Manual 0
Secondary 0
Robot Hack Failures 4
Allies Hacked 0
Hacks Repelled 0
Total Allies 0
Largest Group 0
Highest-Rated Group 0
Highest-Rated Ally 0
Total Orders 0
STAY 0
GOTO 0
ROAM 0
FOLLOW 0
GUARD 0
AID 0
BUILD 0
TUNNEL 0
DROP 0
PICKUP 0
COLLECT 0
EXPLORE 0
RETURN 0
Terraforming Orders 0
Walls Built 0
Walls Tunneled 0
Ally Attacks 0
Total Damage 0
Kills 0
Allies Corrupted 0
Allies Melted 0
Peak Influence 165
Average Influence 40
Final Influence 25
Maximum Alert Level 0
Low Security (%) 100
Level 1 0
Level 2 0
Level 3 0
Level 4 0
Level 5 0
Squads Dispatched 17
Investigation 2
Extermination 2
Reinforcement 13
Assault 0
Garrison 0
Exploration Rate (%) 25
Regions Visited 13
Garrisons Visited 0
Relays Disabled 0
Generators Disabled 0
Network Hubs Disabled 0
Turns Passed 2937
Depth 11 54
Depth 10 452
Depth 9 243
Depth 8 164
Depth 7 193
Depth 6 241
Depth 5 538
Depth 4 171
Depth 3 310
Depth 2 156
Depth 1 415
Scrapyard 54
Materials 747
Factory 1143
Research 466
Access 415
Mines 112
Prototype IDs
---------------
Experimental Airjet
Improved VTOL Module
Improved Cesium-ion Thruster
Experimental Cesium-ion Thruster
Improved Q-Thruster
Improved Spread Laser
Point Singularity Launcher
Plasma Sword
Kinetic Spear
Experimental Heat Sink
Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None
Game
------
Seed: 1457736347
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 65 min
Sessions: 3
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 170
ASCII: 1
Keyboard: 1
Movement: Numpad
Fullscreen: 1
Font: 12/Terminus
Map View: 83x54
X=9408870191335603484478034731
531305474305031500441300530004
080740158411750810153050710400
505710141044470047844757171117
154150008351154778887757044710
453444474715414813753077044730
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448141474008703701807875417077
048080040084743014740041807104
0777074510870700000144844
Congratulations :D
Spoiler
The inner shell around the lift can only be shot through, but it's mostly cosmetic since if you inspect it you'll see that even a late-game gun can blast through its armor, or any type of cannon and most explosives. And even if you're unarmed, if you've got someone's attention some of them might miss and blow it open for you ;) (Behemoths are especially good at this, and it's how zxc managed his most recent speed win unarmed and almost dead.)
I like the description "enthusiastic harem." I can't imagine they'd believe you called them that :P
Quote from: Sherlockkat on March 11, 2016, 05:24:30 PM
Guess who ascended :).
Congratulations Sherlockkat. Well done!
Quote from: Kyzrati on March 11, 2016, 08:49:12 PM
I like the description "enthusiastic harem." I can't imagine they'd believe you called them that :P
Haha. They were very persistent. I would lose them for a couple of turns and then they will be on me again. I don't think I managed to lose them until the end where they got killed by falling debris when I was blowing through the walls to reach the exit. The end to that game reminded me of an episode from Doctor Who. There is this episode where the Doctor is pursued by this really slow and evil contraption and runs into a wall of pure diamond blocking him from the exit. He then..urm...punches through the wall over..erm.. a period of 4 billion years. It's complicated. I had a easier time with my point singularity launcher. But, that reference immediately sprang to my mind with those slow hunters on my tail and me stuck in a corner with no place to go.
Quote from: Shobalk on March 11, 2016, 10:53:00 PM
Congratulations Sherlockkat. Well done!
Thank you. Gratz on getting into recycling :). Hope you have better luck finding its secrets than I did.
Grats Sherlockkat 8)
Quote from: Kyzrati on March 11, 2016, 08:49:12 PM
Spoiler
(Behemoths are especially good at this, and it's how zxc managed his most recent speed win unarmed and almost dead.)
Spoiler
I am really don't think it was a behemoth. I'm 90+% sure it was a programmer.
Spoiler
Quote from: zxc on March 15, 2016, 05:56:26 PM
I really don't think it was a behemoth. I'm 90+% sure it was a programmer.
I recall you pointing that out, and now that you mention it I guess that must be true after seeing your screenshots since they won't fire through walls from another side. But even the Sage uses EM weapons too weak to blow through that shell. Based on the number a Terminator could just barely manage it (10%). It can be hard to follow ballistic projectiles over short ranges since they fire so quickly :P
Quote from: Kyzrati on March 15, 2016, 09:59:18 PM
Spoiler
Quote from: zxc on March 15, 2016, 05:56:26 PM
I really don't think it was a behemoth. I'm 90+% sure it was a programmer.
I recall you pointing that out, and now that you mention it I guess that must be true after seeing your screenshots since they won't fire through walls from another side. But even the Sage uses EM weapons too weak to blow through that shell. Based on the number a Terminator could just barely manage it (10%). It can be hard to follow ballistic projectiles over short ranges since they fire so quickly :P
Well I am happy for this to become an enduring Cogmind mystery :P
Hmm. Theory question.
Beware, question regarding endgame/-1/access
What happens if I blow through the side-walls to reach the exit casing without damaging any of the other walls or the door and lose all my weaponry to falling debris? Given that the enemies can't reach me, am I just stuck inside the room? This nearly happened to me in my winning run. I blew through with a fusion bomb launcher and lost it to the debris. Luckily, had a backup launcher to blow up the casing.
Quote from: Sherlockkat on March 18, 2016, 06:01:27 PM
Hmm. Theory question.
Beware, question regarding endgame/-1/access
What happens if I blow through the side-walls to reach the exit casing without damaging any of the other walls or the door and lose all my weaponry to falling debris? Given that the enemies can't reach me, am I just stuck inside the room? This nearly happened to me in my winning run. I blew through with a fusion bomb launcher and lost it to the debris. Luckily, had a backup launcher to blow up the casing.
If that happens then you're stuffed ;D
Spoiler
BTW blowing through the sides to reach the casing should be significantly harder now. You must've had some fantastic weapon to be able to do that. This was my preferred method of reaching the exit, but K nerfed it in Alpha 6 (and added (a) new way(s) to reach the exit.
@Sherlockkat Like zxc says, you'd be done for! Some have died this way on earlier floors, one of the dangers of completely destructible terrain that can also collapse and/or be repaired by engineers (the latter is how new players are occasionally permanently entombed in walls--well, I say "new" but it almost happened to me once as well :P).
Quote from: zxc on March 18, 2016, 06:55:22 PM
but K nerfed it in Alpha 6
From your point of view it was a nerf; from mine it was correcting a mistake since it was intended to work as it does now :P (thank you for finding it)
And Sherlockkat had the most powerful launcher currently in the game, enough to blow through
anything. There are some even more destructive launchers, but you can't find them yet.
Quote from: Kyzrati on March 18, 2016, 08:41:25 PM
From your point of view it was a nerf; from mine it was correcting a mistake since it was intended to work as it does now :P (thank you for finding it)
Maybe I found it and 'reported' it, but not before
Spoiler
I won about 10 games with that method :P
I must have been very lucky :o. I didn't know I had the most powerful launcher in the game. It was just an unidentified prototype. I whipped it out after I had entombed myself trying to do some renovation work on access. In my defense, my original game plan was to actually reach the back-exit and rely on the fact that I was very, very powerful hacker (look at my peak state) to carry me through.
Quote from: zxc on March 18, 2016, 08:58:51 PM
Maybe I found it and 'reported' it, but not before Spoiler
I won about 10 games with that method :P
Oh I know, and that's fine; and what alpha's all about :). You should've seen the crazy stuff people were doing with Alpha 1 before I had properly restricted the fabrication system. Imagine traveling with dozens of Hunter allies ::)
Quote from: Sherlockkat on March 18, 2016, 08:59:10 PM
I whipped it out after I had entombed myself trying to do some renovation work on access. In my defense, my original game plan was to actually reach the back-exit and rely on the fact that I was very, very powerful hacker (look at my peak state) to carry me through.
The hacking would've worked, yeah. And even though that launcher's powerful, next time check its matter consumption and you'll realize you wouldn't have been firing it at everything you see, anyway ;)