(https://i.imgur.com/ntjOVwG.png)
Welcome to Alpha Challenge 2015, the biggest community event of Cogmind Alpha Access!
You can go straight to the main event page (http://www.gridsagegames.com/cogmind/events/AC2015/) to read about the rules, rewards, leaderboards, and dozens of achievements, but here's an introduction and summary of what all this is about.
While top scorers will naturally receive more recognition and prizes, this is also meant to be an event fun for all, and in that spirit simply by participating you might win something substantial (Cogmind gift keys!). You can even get your name in Cogmind's ASCII art gallery! (the item attribution reward)
There are quite a number of achievements--58 and counting--providing recognition for many unique styles of play and giving even those less familiar with the game a chance to put their name on the leaderboard. The achievements are "secret," however, so initially you can't aim for them; just play games and the event algorithm will parse and analyze all the uploaded score sheets to determine who currently holds the best ratings in each category.
Note that score is not everything when it comes to placing high on the Best Escapes list--a fast stealth build has as good a chance of topping the list as a high-scoring blast-em-all-to-hell combat build.
During (and especially after) the event, I'll be sharing interesting composite data and graphs so we can see collectively how everyone is faring. (Those will appear here and at /r/Cogmind (https://www.reddit.com/r/Cogmind/).)
Feel free to use this thread for discussion about the event, or your experiences while participating, similar to our weekly seeds. (Seeds will be temporarily suspended during the event since manually seeded games are barred from participation in the Alpha Challenge, and we want to encourage as much participation as possible!)
Good luck! (And as always, have fun!)
Update: The Challenge is now complete! See the final results here (http://www.gridsagegames.com/cogmind/events/AC2015/results.html), and prize list here (http://www.gridsagegames.com/forums/index.php?topic=276.0).
Propulsion modules acquired... systems integrated
Reactor acquired... system integrated
Weapons acquired... systems integrated
Ancillary bays standing by... awaiting component acquisition
All systems report functional
Good luck, fellow Cogminds!
Downloading.....DONE!
Booting Systems.....
LOCATION=UNKNOWN
GOAL=ESCAPE
And I was just about to go to bed...
Glad everyone's getting into it ;D
Quote from: Shobalk on September 08, 2015, 11:03:35 PM
And I was just about to go to bed...
Haha, there's always time for one more run! But you
do have two weeks to show your stuff.
I always release/announce things in the US late evening since that's my morning over here :P
Calling it a night ;)
I got up to -5 and the game crashed in a fight with some g's.
Not sure if there is any info that I can provide you, but if there's a crash dump or something, I can send it over.
Whoa, crashed?! That's unexpected, and might be something I'd want to deal with ASAP. (That said, there were minimal changes from Alpha 3b, and that was a really stable build.)
Did you not have crash uploads activated? I don't see your log on the server. There should be a crash.log file in the main directory that you can send me and I'll be able to pinpoint what caused it. Please do! Here's hoping it was something rare...
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 08, 2015, 11:47:31 PM
I always release/announce things in the US late evening since that's my morning over here :P
I noticed that. =P Where are you located, if you don't mind me asking?
Nope, it's publicly available knowledge via my Twitter (https://twitter.com/GridSageGames) :). Taipei.
Excellent news
Added a bit to the OP:
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 08, 2015, 08:27:02 PM
Note that score is not everything when it comes to placing high on the Best Escapes list--a fast stealth build has as good a chance of topping the list as a high-scoring blast-em-all-to-hell combat build.
So if you're more experienced/better at stealth or more confident you can win with that approach, don't forget to try it at some point, too!
I am awaited on the surface, where I will ride eternal, shiny and chrome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpEmSpzqU3M
But... there is no achievement for going out in a blaze of glory and reaching the surface posthumously as a flaming wreck :P
"Going out in a blaze of glory" is my middle name I will have you know.
Really, really looking forward to this. I'll probably have to buy the ladyfriend something shiny and nice to make up for the amount of time I'm going to be glued to my computer. Roguelike tournaments are close to my favorite thing (see e.g. http://dobrazupa.org/tournament/0.16/players/happylisk.html). Thanks for setting this up K!
I do wonder what the criteria will be for 'Best Escapes'. 'High Scores' is simple enough to work out. I reached -2 with a combat build... hellish. Going to try and win a stealth game before I have another go at the high scores.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 09, 2015, 07:43:59 AM
Really, really looking forward to this. I'll probably have to buy the ladyfriend something shiny and nice to make up for the amount of time I'm going to be glued to my computer. Roguelike tournaments are close to my favorite thing (see e.g. http://dobrazupa.org/tournament/0.16/players/happylisk.html). Thanks for setting this up K!
Wow, Happylisk, you're one hell of a DCSS player! Amazing runs, and you averaged like 3-5 hours per day for the duration, hehe :). Thanks for linking that, because I can see it would be nice to later on have a full table of basic stats/highlights for every single run. Added to notes.
Glad to have set this up; I've been wanting to for a while! I naively thought the opportunity would come within a few weeks of launch last May, ha.
Way too busy for that, plus the game wasn't ready for it just yet. The game is very much ready for it now, I think. It'll be really fun to do again once the game is complete and there's even more content, but I can't be holding tournaments left and right since it slows development :P. So this is it!
Quote from: zxc on September 09, 2015, 07:55:42 AM
I do wonder what the criteria will be for 'Best Escapes'.
Only some of the scoring criteria for some parts of the event will be revealed while it's in progress, because a number of them could be too easily gamed, and I also hope that beginners with their "unique" styles might be able to take some achievements, for example ;). As for Best Escapes, we'll see--I want to let it run for a while and watch how the leaderboards evolve first. Just play your best for now!
I was thinking of you and all the previous stealth winners today when I added that note about Best Escapes. Combat builds are much more likely to achieve a high score, but I wanted stealth to be a viable winning option as well, which should be more reflected in the second chart.
I just won a stealth run, maybe the first win of the tournament. It took two or three attempts.
Spent so long on -1 with the exit accessible but looking for a ....
I think stealth runs are highly streakable but combat runs are more RNG heavy. I found it more tense than my combat run, I think because stealth runs are more tactical while combat runs are more strategic (with a touch of RNG). Often during my last combat run I would be in a situation where the optimal action was reasonably obvious and it was a matter of watching events unfold (always badly).
Geez zxc you're a beast. Congrats. If I get a single win this tournament I'll be thrilled.
Congratulations zxc, yes that's the first win so we'll have one on that board when I upload the data :)
Quote from: zxc on September 09, 2015, 09:33:42 AM
I think stealth runs are highly streakable but combat runs are more RNG heavy. I found it more tense than my combat run, I think because stealth runs are more tactical while combat runs are more strategic (with a touch of RNG). Often during my last combat run I would be in a situation where the optimal action was reasonably obvious and it was a matter of watching events unfold (always badly).
I agree with your observations. With stealth it's about controlling the situation before it even escalates, while the combat approach is more at the mercy of whatever is thrown at you.
Usually, anyway. Theoretically with the right hacking and possibly a hybrid sensor approach combat builds can also exert control over the situation/environment. Because I would like all seeds to be 100% winnable by expert players (using either strategy), once the other branches and rest of the content is in we can look to making sure the overall balance is right. For that I'll be needing the expertise of more combat winners :P (more later than now, because as we know there are many new things to come).
I'd be surprised if you don't end up with one or more wins, Happylisk.
Thanks :>
Plenty of time for you to crank out the wins, Happylisk. I believe!
I insist on winning a combat run this tournament. It will be done!
Would love to discuss this stuff further, Kyzrati, once I get more experience with Cogmind combat.
How do I tell if my client is configured properly to submit my games with my forum name?
Quote from: Agroesch on September 09, 2015, 03:29:39 PM
How do I tell if my client is configured properly to submit my games with my forum name?
Do a test game (just start Cogmind then quit the run if you haven't done any since setting the name), then go to your scores folder. In addition to a bunch of of text files that are called Anonymous[bunch of numbers], you should see one that says [your name][bunch of numbers]!
I just played my first few runs of the tournament, and they haven't gone remotely well. I feel like this (http://www.quickmeme.com/img/d6/d6a1143f571184db25f94613edd43b40af6d3a629221aba00d9efdcfef5efd84.jpg) trying to do stealth runs lol. I just activate several patrols while running from an initial one and die in a fire.
I can see the files for my games there with my name on them. So can I assume that if [Upload Scores] is set to "On" that I am successfully making entries for the challenge?
You think you have no idea what you're doing. You should see my games. I'm always limping around with shot up parts slapping anything on my character that will take damage as I try to hobble towards the exit. My strategic approach to the game is "Oooh, colors!"
Quote from: Agroesch on September 09, 2015, 04:14:35 PM
I can see the files for my games there with my name on them. So can I assume that if [Upload Scores] is set to "On" that I am successfully making entries for the challenge?
You think you have no idea what you're doing. You should see my games. I'm always limping around with shot up parts slapping anything on my character that will take damage as I try to hobble towards the exit. My strategic approach to the game is "Oooh, colors!"
Yes, you're set! And that made me laugh, thanks. xD Hang in there! After being so wildly successful on those back-to-back runs I'd forgotten the mundane dangers of Materials.
Second serious run, got to -4 and almost 8k points. The wheels (treads?) really came off the bus when I ran out of matter. Next time going to run 2 thermal weapons and a kinetic weapon rather than the inverse. Heat sinks are plentiful; once you're out of matter with only kinetic weapons, shit goes south.
Edit: Bah, decided to kill a Beast for fun, but it overheated right before death and I didn't get the kill.
First leaderboard updates are now online! (http://www.gridsagegames.com/cogmind/events/AC2015/)
I'll be updating it several times each day from here on out.
Ooh, I'm leading in three mystery achievement categories. Given that last night's run mostly involved avoiding robots and moving as efficiently as possible from exit to exit, I'm not sure what I did, but I hope I keep doing it!
The achivements recognize different play styles, so you can keep using the same style to possibly hold your spot (unless someone else does it better :P), or mix it up to possibly land something else. In any case, playing more games is a good way to increase chances of leading more achievements.
I'll reveal a couple more achievement names tomorrow, and before the event ends start revealing the exact parameters of some so you can compete specifically for them if you like :)
And another combat Cogmind dead in -2 but only 15k score this time. -2 really is the killer for me...
Edit: Started another combat run but decided to switch to flight early on and won it. Curious to see if my best escape score goes up or not, which would give a hint as to what it likes.
While zxc escapes twice, I wake up early for some cogminding and put up some of the worst scores I've had in a good while. Maybe more luck tonight.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 10, 2015, 04:45:52 AM
While zxc escapes twice, I wake up early for some cogminding and put up some of the worst scores I've had in a good while. Maybe more luck tonight.
Oh I had a few awful scores too. I don't usually talk about those ;D
Cogmind - Alpha 3c
Name: zzxc
---[ CORE DESTROYED ]---
Performance
-------------
Evolutions (0) 0
Robots Destroyed (5) 25
Value Destroyed (90) 90
Prototype IDs (0) 0
Alien Tech Identified (0) 0
Bonus (0) 0
TOTAL SCORE: 115
Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity 0/250
Matter 299/300
Energy 50/50
System Corruption 0%
Temperature Cool (0)
Location -10/Mines
Parts
-------
Power (1)
Propulsion (2)
Utility (2)
Weapon (2)
Inventory
-----------
Ion Engine
Medium Matter Storage Unit
Peak State
------------
Power
Ion Engine
Propulsion
Aluminum Leg
Aluminum Leg
Utility
Weapon
Assault Rifle
EM Pulse Gun
[Rating: 5]
Favorites
-----------
Power Ion Engine
Engine Ion Engine
Propulsion Aluminum Leg
Leg Aluminum Leg
Utility None
Weapon Assault Rifle
Energy Gun EM Pulse Gun
Ballistic Gun Assault Rifle
Stats
-------
Classes Destroyed 2
Swarmer 4
Mutant 1
NPCs Destroyed 0
Best Kill Streak 4
Combat Bots Only 4
Matter Collected 380
Salvage Created 76
Parts Attached 7
Power 1
Propulsion 2
Utility 0
Weapon 4
Parts Lost 7
Power 1
Propulsion 2
Utility 0
Weapon 4
Average Slot Usage (%) 63
Naked Turns 2
Spaces Moved 119
Fastest Speed (%) 200
Slowest Speed (%) 100
Overloaded Moves 0
Propulsion Burnouts 0
Targets Rammed 0
Cave-ins Triggered 0
Teleports 0
Heaviest Build 9
Greatest Overweight (x) 2
Average Overweight (x) 0
Largest Inventory 4
Most Items Carried 4
Average Items Carried 3
Core Damage Taken 268
Volleys Fired 17
Largest 2
Hottest 60
Shots Fired 32
Gun 32
Cannon 0
Launcher 0
Special 0
Kinetic 20
Thermal 0
Explosive 0
Electromagnetic 12
Shots Hit Robots 14
Core Hits 10
Overload Shots 0
Energy Bleed 0
Heat Surge 0
Short Circuit 0
Meltdown 0
Melee Attacks 0
Impact 0
Slashing 0
Piercing 0
Damage Inflicted 161
Projectiles 161
Explosions 0
Melee 0
Ramming 0
Highest Temperature 7
Average Temperature 3
Shutdowns 0
Energy Bleed 0
Interference 0
Matter Decay 0
Short Circuit 0
Damage (minor) 0
Damage (major) 0
Damage (core) 0
Highest Corruption 0
Message Errors 0
Parts Rejected 0
Data loss (map) 0
Data loss (database) 0
Misfires 0
Misdirections 0
Targeting Errors 0
Weapon Failures 0
Haulers Intercepted 0
Robots Corrupted 0
Robots Melted 0
Tactical Retreats 0
Communications Jammed 0
Parts Field Recycled 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Merge Repaired 0
Drone Launches 0
Drone Recoveries 0
Derelicts Assembled 0
Traps Triggered 0
Indirectly 0
Trap Hack Attempts 0
Triggered 0
Disarmed 0
Reprogrammed 0
Reused 0
Machine Familiarity 0
Terminals 0
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Machines Hacked 0
Terminals 0
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Total Hacks 0
Successful 0
Failed 0
Catastrophic 0
Database Lockouts 0
Manual 0
Terminals 0
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Terminal Hacks 0
Record 0
Part Schematic 0
Robot Schematic 0
Robot Analysis 0
Prototype ID Bank 0
Open Door 0
Level Access Points 0
Branch Access Points 0
Emergency Access Points 0
Machine Index 0
Terminal Index 0
Fabricator Index 0
Repair Station Index 0
Recycling Unit Index 0
Scanalyzer Index 0
Alert Level 0
Unreport Threat 0
Locate Traps 0
Disarm Traps 0
Reprogram Traps 0
Dispatch Records 0
Maintenance Status 0
Security Status 0
Surveillance Status 0
Patrol Status 0
Transport Status 0
Investigation Status 0
Extermination Status 0
Reinforcement Status 0
Assault Status 0
Recall Investigation 0
Recall Extermination 0
Recall Reinforcements 0
Recall Assault 0
Hauler Manifests 0
Registered Components 0
Registered Prototypes 0
Zone Layout 0
Sector Layout 0
Machine Controls 0
Hacking Detections 0
Full Trace Events 0
Feedback Events 0
Feedback Corruption 0
Feedback Part Disabled 0
Feedback Blocked 0
Robot Schematics Acquired 0
Robots Built 0
Total Robot Build Rating 0
Robot Fabrication Matter 0
Robot Fabrication Time 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Built 0
Total Part Build Rating 0
Part Fabrication Matter 0
Part Fabrication Time 0
Parts Repaired 0
Part Repair Time 0
Parts Recycled 0
Recycled Matter 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Scanalyzed 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Damaged 0
Robot Analysis Total 0
Robots Rewired 0
Robots Hacked 0
Non-combat 0
Combat 0
Parse 0
Link 0
Rebooted 0
Overloaded 0
Assimilated 0
Manual 0
Secondary 0
Robot Hack Failures 0
Allies Hacked 0
Hacks Repelled 0
Total Allies 2
Largest Group 0
Highest-Rated Group 0
Highest-Rated Ally 0
Total Orders 0
STAY 0
GOTO 0
ROAM 0
FOLLOW 0
GUARD 0
AID 0
BUILD 0
TUNNEL 0
DROP 0
PICKUP 0
COLLECT 0
EXPLORE 0
RETURN 0
Terraforming Orders 0
Walls Built 0
Walls Tunneled 0
Ally Attacks 0
Total Damage 0
Kills 0
Allies Corrupted 0
Allies Melted 0
Peak Influence 140
Average Influence 57
Maximum Alert Level 0
Low Security (%) 100
Level 1 0
Level 2 0
Level 3 0
Level 4 0
Level 5 0
Squads Dispatched 0
Investigation 0
Extermination 0
Reinforcement 0
Assault 0
Exploration Rate (%) 9
Regions Visited 3
Turns Passed 184
Depth 11 45
Depth 10 139
Scrapyard 45
Materials 40
Mines 99
Prototype IDs
---------------
None
Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None
Game
------
Seed: 1441816441
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 22 min
Sessions: 2
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 13
ASCII: 1
Keyboard: 0
Font: 18/Terminus
Map View: 76x50
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Ouch, that's pretty bad.
Clearly though you got stealth down. You should write up a guide :)
Quote from: Happylisk on September 10, 2015, 05:01:13 AM
Ouch, that's pretty bad.
Clearly though you got stealth down. You should write up a guide :)
I'll definitely be down for writing guides and stuff like that. At the moment though I am focused on playing :P
Cool, I can see my name up there!
I've got a sneaking suspicion as to what achievement I'm leading in, as I found a large collection of some specific thing in a branch (which was really cool, by the way, and totally saved my bacon).
Would be more specific, but then I'd have NO chance of staying leader for the achievement :)
I compiled some stats from our first day!
(https://i.imgur.com/sA2gcSu.png)
Looks like if you get over the -9 hump, you have a decent shot at making progress in Factory.
Scores just updated, and it seems the Best Escapes algorithm likes my second win more than my first. Interesting... 0.89 -> 1.08. That means higher numbers are better. Going to compare the two runs and see what exactly differed.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 10, 2015, 08:59:14 AM
Looks like if you get over the -9 hump, you have a decent shot at making progress in Factory.
I'm thinking it's mostly beginners who can flee their way through to -9, probably in pretty bad shape, where they end up dying for lack of strategy. Once players can reach the Factory a floor or two is usually manageable, but attrition seems to get the better of most players in those huge floors.
I'm sure this will start to look a bit different once we add some Factory branches, not to mention once the average player starts to get better.
So, uh, I just encountered Revision 17 on a normal run - it's my third or so run of the competition, the seed is random, and I'm not in the tutorial starting area. I've just never seen this before - intended or bug?
Quote from: Adraius on September 10, 2015, 11:00:39 AM
So, uh, I just encountered Revision 17 on a normal run - it's my third or so run of the competition, the seed is random, and I'm not in the tutorial starting area. I've just never seen this before - intended or bug?
Intended, he has a chance to randomly spawn after the tutorial.
My best run so far with a 10k score. I'm a bit salty cause I found 3 locked branches in -4 and died stumbling around for the exit, but I definitely feel like I'm getting the hang of it.
Spoiler
Cogmind - Alpha 3c
Name: Happylisk
---[ CORE DESTROYED ]---
Performance
-------------
Evolutions (6) 3000
Robots Destroyed (170) 850
Value Destroyed (6403) 6403
Prototype IDs (8) 160
Alien Tech Identified (0) 0
Bonus (0) 0
TOTAL SCORE: 10413
Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity 0/1150
Matter 300/300
Energy 80/150
System Corruption 21%
Temperature Cool (0)
Location -4/Factory
Parts
-------
Power (3)
Micro Fission Core
Mini Fusion Reactor
Propulsion (2)
Utility (11)
Improved Heat Sink
Improved Target Analyzer
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Heat Sink
Remote Shield Generator
Improved Heat Sink
Weapon (3)
Inventory
-----------
Compact Heavy Treads
Light Quantum Reactor
Peak State
------------
Power
Micro Fission Core
Micro Fission Core
Light Anti-Matter Reactor
Propulsion
Heavy Treads
Utility
Advanced Cooling System
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Energy Well
Medium Storage Unit
Point Defense Array
Improved Thermal Shield
Improved Heat Sink
Reflective Medium Armor
Improved Medium Armor Plating
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Heat Sink
Weapon
Enhanced Coil Gun
Railgun
Railgun
[Rating: 106]
Favorites
-----------
Power Micro Fission Core
Engine Ion Engine
Power Core Micro Fission Core
Reactor Light Anti-Matter Reactor
Propulsion Light Treads
Treads Light Treads
Leg Flexi-carbon Leg
Hover Unit Anti-Grav System
Utility Improved Heat Sink
Device Improved Heat Sink
Storage Medium Storage Unit
Processor Advanced Targeting Computer
Protection Improved Medium Armor Plating
Weapon Minigun
Energy Gun Variable Charge Gun
Energy Cannon Improved EM Pulse Cannon
Ballistic Gun Minigun
Ballistic Cannon Improved Light Cannon
Launcher Tesla Bomb Launcher
Impact Weapon Heavy Mace
Stats
-------
Classes Destroyed 14
Worker 13
Builder 14
Hauler 9
Recycler 12
Operator 1
Watcher 3
Swarmer 26
Saboteur 1
Grunt 40
Brawler 4
Duelist 1
Sentry 16
Hunter 11
Programmer 19
NPCs Destroyed 0
Best Kill Streak 10
Combat Bots Only 8
Matter Collected 4301
Salvage Created 6900
Parts Attached 252
Power 33
Propulsion 21
Utility 93
Weapon 105
Parts Lost 95
Power 9
Propulsion 7
Utility 50
Weapon 29
Average Slot Usage (%) 91
Naked Turns 4
Spaces Moved 4353
Fastest Speed (%) 222
Slowest Speed (%) 9
Overloaded Moves 0
Propulsion Burnouts 0
Targets Rammed 14
Cave-ins Triggered 0
Teleports 0
Heaviest Build 86
Greatest Overweight (x) 20
Average Overweight (x) 0
Largest Inventory 12
Most Items Carried 12
Average Items Carried 7
Core Damage Taken 1565
Volleys Fired 305
Largest 3
Hottest 313
Shots Fired 695
Gun 350
Cannon 260
Launcher 85
Special 0
Kinetic 264
Thermal 264
Explosive 56
Electromagnetic 111
Shots Hit Robots 464
Core Hits 315
Overload Shots 0
Energy Bleed 0
Heat Surge 0
Short Circuit 0
Meltdown 0
Melee Attacks 11
Impact 11
Slashing 0
Piercing 0
Damage Inflicted 20124
Projectiles 10590
Explosions 9255
Melee 245
Ramming 34
Highest Temperature 435
Average Temperature 98
Shutdowns 1
Energy Bleed 1
Interference 0
Matter Decay 0
Short Circuit 3
Damage (minor) 0
Damage (major) 0
Damage (core) 0
Highest Corruption 21
Message Errors 43
Parts Rejected 24
Data loss (map) 48
Data loss (database) 30
Misfires 11
Misdirections 17
Targeting Errors 49
Weapon Failures 10
Haulers Intercepted 9
Robots Corrupted 6
Robots Melted 7
Tactical Retreats 18
Communications Jammed 0
Parts Field Recycled 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Merge Repaired 0
Drone Launches 2
Drone Recoveries 0
Derelicts Assembled 0
Traps Triggered 2
Indirectly 2
Trap Hack Attempts 0
Triggered 0
Disarmed 0
Reprogrammed 0
Reused 0
Machine Familiarity 17
Terminals 16
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 1
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Machines Hacked 17
Terminals 16
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 1
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Total Hacks 56
Successful 8
Failed 48
Catastrophic 16
Database Lockouts 0
Manual 29
Terminals 54
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 2
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Terminal Hacks 6
Record 0
Part Schematic 0
Robot Schematic 0
Robot Analysis 0
Prototype ID Bank 1
Open Door 0
Level Access Points 0
Branch Access Points 0
Emergency Access Points 0
Machine Index 0
Terminal Index 0
Fabricator Index 0
Repair Station Index 0
Recycling Unit Index 0
Scanalyzer Index 0
Alert Level 0
Unreport Threat 1
Locate Traps 1
Disarm Traps 0
Reprogram Traps 0
Dispatch Records 0
Maintenance Status 0
Security Status 0
Surveillance Status 0
Patrol Status 0
Transport Status 0
Investigation Status 0
Extermination Status 0
Reinforcement Status 0
Assault Status 0
Recall Investigation 0
Recall Extermination 0
Recall Reinforcements 0
Recall Assault 0
Hauler Manifests 0
Registered Components 0
Registered Prototypes 0
Zone Layout 1
Sector Layout 0
Machine Controls 2
Hacking Detections 16
Full Trace Events 15
Feedback Events 0
Feedback Corruption 0
Feedback Part Disabled 0
Feedback Blocked 0
Robot Schematics Acquired 0
Robots Built 0
Total Robot Build Rating 0
Robot Fabrication Matter 0
Robot Fabrication Time 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Built 0
Total Part Build Rating 0
Part Fabrication Matter 0
Part Fabrication Time 0
Parts Repaired 0
Part Repair Time 30
Parts Recycled 0
Recycled Matter 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Scanalyzed 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Damaged 0
Robot Analysis Total 0
Robots Rewired 0
Robots Hacked 0
Non-combat 0
Combat 0
Parse 0
Link 0
Rebooted 0
Overloaded 0
Assimilated 0
Manual 0
Secondary 0
Robot Hack Failures 0
Allies Hacked 0
Hacks Repelled 0
Total Allies 9
Largest Group 2
Highest-Rated Group 10
Highest-Rated Ally 5
Total Orders 2
STAY 0
GOTO 0
ROAM 0
FOLLOW 0
GUARD 0
AID 0
BUILD 0
TUNNEL 0
DROP 0
PICKUP 0
COLLECT 0
EXPLORE 2
RETURN 0
Terraforming Orders 0
Walls Built 0
Walls Tunneled 0
Ally Attacks 0
Total Damage 0
Kills 0
Allies Corrupted 0
Allies Melted 0
Peak Influence 767
Average Influence 230
Maximum Alert Level 2
Low Security (%) 43
Level 1 38
Level 2 17
Level 3 0
Level 4 0
Level 5 0
Squads Dispatched 31
Investigation 15
Extermination 10
Reinforcement 5
Assault 1
Exploration Rate (%) 21
Regions Visited 8
Turns Passed 9200
Depth 11 119
Depth 10 325
Depth 9 1357
Depth 8 701
Depth 7 1464
Depth 6 493
Depth 5 1801
Depth 4 2940
Scrapyard 119
Materials 2383
Factory 6698
Prototype IDs
---------------
Mini Fusion Reactor
Improved Medium Laser
Heavy Particle Gun
Advanced Plasma Rifle
Heavy Proton Cannon
Enhanced Coil Gun
Tiamat Missile Launcher
Tesla Bomb Launcher
Advanced Energy Well
Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None
Game
------
Seed: 1441920813
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 97 min
Sessions: 8
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 45
ASCII: 0
Keyboard: 1
Font: 12/Cogmind
Map View: 76x56
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Well my new favorite last ditch escape effort is diving down chute traps and hoping for an army of allies whose corpses I can loot for gear and reemerge.
What is the schedule for leaderboard updates so I don't obsessively check :D
This challenge is so funny, I love it. I have really no idea what I'm doing, yet somehow I ended up on 11 (for now ;)) spots on the leaderboard. Probably for things like "Most times bumping into a wall", "Getting hit most times by a single robot" or "Repeatedly headbutting combat bots".
Quote from: boomblip on September 10, 2015, 11:14:06 PM
What is the schedule for leaderboard updates so I don't obsessively check :D
Sorry... I decided not to announce a schedule since on some days I know I won't be able to keep it (it'll be nice when this is fully automated...).
I can say that I'll always update at least twice a day, usually three times assuming I'm around all day--once in my morning, afternoon, and night. So in EST that's generally around 22:00, 05:00, and 11:00.
Today I happened to be out all day because the weather was finally nice (= not raining) for once, so only two updates.
Quote from: cogger on September 11, 2015, 01:13:53 AM
This challenge is so funny, I love it. I have really no idea what I'm doing, yet somehow I ended up on 11 (for now ;)) spots on the leaderboard. Probably for things like "Most times bumping into a wall", "Getting hit most times by a single robot" or "Repeatedly headbutting combat bots".
Haha, they're not that bad ;). I did just now reveal a few more achievement titles, and added the first couple descriptions as well.
I most likely will not be revealing
all of the achievements before it's over, but I'll start revealing certain ones that might spark interesting play styles or challenges beyond just going for a high score. (In a few cases the achievements might also be reminders/hints of things that are good to do. There's quite a variety.)
I have a high score D:
What is this madness.
Ooh, and #2 at that. Obviously fighting your way to the end there fairly aggressively :)
At this point simply making it to Research with a combat build will assure anyone a spot in the top 10. I'm still expecting to see some more scores in the 15k+ range, and a combat win or two that can reach 20k+.
Prepared some more stats from the first three days' data. And today I revealed some more achievements in the latest score update--more definitions to come!
(https://i.imgur.com/OXsBoic.png)
Well I didn't need an achievement to tell me I'm most 1337.
Well that was my best score yet.
I had plenty of parts but the battles became too intense and I couldn't replace fast enough to get any shots off. Basically been focusing on energy weapons with one or two AOE explosive weapons for crowd control, but I have pretty consistently found myself in the chute traps getting it all knocked off due to lack of speed. Found myself with 15%+ corruption more than once which was absolutely ridiculous, as I ran around the level blowing up generators and random robots unintentionally.
Spoiler
Cogmind - Alpha 3c
Name: BoomBlip
---[ CORE DESTROYED ]---
Performance
-------------
Evolutions (7) 3500
Robots Destroyed (211) 1055
Value Destroyed (9310) 9310
Prototype IDs (17) 340
Alien Tech Identified (0) 0
Bonus (0) 0
TOTAL SCORE: 14205
Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity 0/1300
Matter 300/300
Energy 50/50
System Corruption 20%
Temperature Cool (0)
Location -3/Research
Parts
-------
Power (3)
Propulsion (2)
Utility (12)
Weapon (4)
Inventory
-----------
Experimental Terrain Scan Processor
Improved Medium Treads
Compact Heavy Treads
Micro Fission Core
Peak State
------------
Power
Micro Fission Core
Light Anti-Matter Reactor
Light Particle Reactor
Propulsion
Improved Anti-Grav System
Improved Anti-Grav System
Utility
Energy Well
High-capacity Storage Unit
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Reclamation Unit
Improved Launcher Guidance Computer
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Heat Sink
Powered Armor
Powered Armor
Powered Armor
Powered Armor
Advanced Heat Sink
Weapon
Variable Charge Gun
Gamma Rifle
Gamma Rifle
Gamma Rifle
[Rating: 119]
Favorites
-----------
Power Micro Fission Core
Engine Light Angular Momentum Engine
Power Core Micro Fission Core
Reactor Anti-Matter Reactor
Propulsion Improved Treads
Treads Improved Treads
Leg Myomer Leg
Hover Unit Gravmag Array
Utility Large Storage Unit
Device Improved Heat Sink
Storage Large Storage Unit
Processor Improved Targeting Computer
Hackware Deep Network Scanner
Protection Improved Light Armor Plating
Weapon High-powered Shock Rifle
Energy Gun High-powered Shock Rifle
Energy Cannon Ion Cannon
Ballistic Gun Railgun
Ballistic Cannon Advanced Assault Cannon
Launcher Mini Smartbomb Launcher
Special Weapon Advanced Remote Datajack
Slashing Weapon Katana
Stats
-------
Classes Destroyed 15
Worker 14
Builder 10
Tunneler 6
Hauler 7
Recycler 18
Mechanic 1
Operator 1
Watcher 4
Swarmer 37
Grunt 51
Brawler 2
Duelist 2
Sentry 12
Hunter 17
Programmer 29
NPCs Destroyed 0
Best Kill Streak 11
Combat Bots Only 9
Matter Collected 5276
Salvage Created 9961
Parts Attached 329
Power 53
Propulsion 36
Utility 118
Weapon 122
Parts Lost 178
Power 27
Propulsion 17
Utility 65
Weapon 69
Average Slot Usage (%) 87
Naked Turns 14
Spaces Moved 5345
Fastest Speed (%) 222
Slowest Speed (%) 6
Overloaded Moves 0
Propulsion Burnouts 0
Targets Rammed 11
Cave-ins Triggered 0
Teleports 0
Heaviest Build 131
Greatest Overweight (x) 31
Average Overweight (x) 2
Largest Inventory 34
Most Items Carried 24
Average Items Carried 13
Core Damage Taken 3289
Volleys Fired 489
Largest 4
Hottest 339
Shots Fired 1275
Gun 830
Cannon 393
Launcher 48
Special 4
Kinetic 397
Thermal 563
Explosive 48
Electromagnetic 263
Shots Hit Robots 795
Core Hits 465
Overload Shots 10
Energy Bleed 0
Heat Surge 0
Short Circuit 0
Meltdown 0
Melee Attacks 2
Impact 0
Slashing 2
Piercing 0
Damage Inflicted 29365
Projectiles 17993
Explosions 11269
Melee 57
Ramming 46
Highest Temperature 565
Average Temperature 107
Shutdowns 10
Energy Bleed 3
Interference 10
Matter Decay 5
Short Circuit 2
Damage (minor) 1
Damage (major) 7
Damage (core) 0
Highest Corruption 26
Message Errors 67
Parts Rejected 27
Data loss (map) 76
Data loss (database) 60
Misfires 16
Misdirections 31
Targeting Errors 93
Weapon Failures 17
Haulers Intercepted 7
Robots Corrupted 9
Robots Melted 9
Tactical Retreats 22
Communications Jammed 0
Parts Field Recycled 2
Retrieved Matter 6
Parts Merge Repaired 0
Drone Launches 0
Drone Recoveries 0
Derelicts Assembled 0
Traps Triggered 0
Indirectly 0
Trap Hack Attempts 0
Triggered 0
Disarmed 0
Reprogrammed 0
Reused 0
Machine Familiarity 12
Terminals 12
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Machines Hacked 12
Terminals 12
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Total Hacks 33
Successful 1
Failed 32
Catastrophic 14
Database Lockouts 0
Manual 33
Terminals 33
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Terminal Hacks 1
Record 0
Part Schematic 0
Robot Schematic 0
Robot Analysis 0
Prototype ID Bank 0
Open Door 0
Level Access Points 0
Branch Access Points 0
Emergency Access Points 0
Machine Index 0
Terminal Index 0
Fabricator Index 0
Repair Station Index 0
Recycling Unit Index 0
Scanalyzer Index 0
Alert Level 0
Unreport Threat 0
Locate Traps 0
Disarm Traps 0
Reprogram Traps 0
Dispatch Records 0
Maintenance Status 0
Security Status 0
Surveillance Status 0
Patrol Status 0
Transport Status 0
Investigation Status 0
Extermination Status 0
Reinforcement Status 0
Assault Status 0
Recall Investigation 0
Recall Extermination 1
Recall Reinforcements 0
Recall Assault 0
Hauler Manifests 0
Registered Components 0
Registered Prototypes 0
Zone Layout 0
Sector Layout 0
Machine Controls 0
Hacking Detections 12
Full Trace Events 4
Feedback Events 1
Feedback Corruption 1
Feedback Part Disabled 0
Feedback Blocked 0
Robot Schematics Acquired 0
Robots Built 0
Total Robot Build Rating 0
Robot Fabrication Matter 0
Robot Fabrication Time 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Built 0
Total Part Build Rating 0
Part Fabrication Matter 0
Part Fabrication Time 0
Parts Repaired 0
Part Repair Time 0
Parts Recycled 0
Recycled Matter 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Scanalyzed 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Damaged 0
Robot Analysis Total 0
Robots Rewired 1
Robots Hacked 1
Non-combat 0
Combat 1
Parse 0
Link 0
Rebooted 0
Overloaded 0
Assimilated 0
Manual 0
Secondary 1
Robot Hack Failures 0
Allies Hacked 1
Hacks Repelled 0
Total Allies 9
Largest Group 1
Highest-Rated Group 81
Highest-Rated Ally 81
Total Orders 0
STAY 0
GOTO 0
ROAM 0
FOLLOW 0
GUARD 0
AID 0
BUILD 0
TUNNEL 0
DROP 0
PICKUP 0
COLLECT 0
EXPLORE 0
RETURN 0
Terraforming Orders 0
Walls Built 0
Walls Tunneled 0
Ally Attacks 2
Total Damage 46
Kills 0
Allies Corrupted 1
Allies Melted 0
Peak Influence 638
Average Influence 207
Maximum Alert Level 2
Low Security (%) 66
Level 1 11
Level 2 21
Level 3 0
Level 4 0
Level 5 0
Squads Dispatched 35
Investigation 7
Extermination 17
Reinforcement 10
Assault 1
Exploration Rate (%) 24
Regions Visited 9
Turns Passed 12979
Depth 11 95
Depth 10 454
Depth 9 699
Depth 8 550
Depth 7 917
Depth 6 2568
Depth 5 3656
Depth 4 2850
Depth 3 1190
Scrapyard 95
Materials 1703
Factory 9991
Research 1190
Prototype IDs
---------------
Improved Medium Laser
Precision Beam Rifle
Cooled Plasma Rifle
Heavy Gatling Laser
Heavy Wave Gun
Advanced Beam Cannon
Cooled Phase Cannon
Improved Assault Rifle
Helical Railgun
Mini Smartbomb Launcher
Experimental Heat Sink
Improved Matter Compressor
Experimental Terrain Scan Processor
Quantum Shroud
Precision Energy Filter
Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None
Game
------
Seed: 1442035249
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 244 min
Sessions: 3
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 52
ASCII: 0
Keyboard: 1
Font: 18/Cogmind
Map View: 76x50
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Wow bb, great run. Look at all those powered armors.
I recently had a promising run go straight to hell in -5. I was in the middle of a big hallway and 2 hunters shot both my engines off. I didn't have spares and things quickly death spiraled. I've gotten the hang of dealing with programmers. Hunters are the things now giving me more problems. I think having more armor than what I'm currently wearing is going to be necessary for dealing with them.
The run thereafter ended up in waste. Standing and fighting there is not a good idea.
Yep the power armor saved my butt a few times but EM damage wrecked me, looking at that score sheet: "Highest Corruption 26" Seriously nasty, seemed like every other turn I was moving in the wrong direction and/or misfiring.
Won a third game - a rather messy stealth run. That probably won't be breaking any records. Took some screenshots for my guide though.
I also had a combat run which collapsed, and I was almost able to salvage it by switching to stealth with the single flight unit I had in my inventory. Reached -2 and died, but the potential was there.
Research remains the biggest killer for me, especially with combat runs.
Combat win remains elusive...
It doesn't seem like you can control situations well enough by combat. I just passed 18k score with a run that ended in Factory, and the attrition is just insane. There just aren't enough armour and storage units. I tried fabricating HCP storage units whenever I could, but it wasn't enough. Saboteurs are disgusting, and the waves of enemies are just endless.
This time I tried to go with more utilities and fewer weapons, to maximise the ability to mitigate damage by having slots for force fields, batteries, lots of armour, matter-energy converters, and lots of storage. But that doesn't work if you can't find those items faster than you lose them.
It feels like a meatgrinder. Maybe I will get a combat win when the stars align after several dozen runs like this. However, these runs are a lot more exhausting than stealth runs. Constantly swapping items, managing volleys, seeking out matter in the most turn efficient manner possible, and on top of that, trying to find the exit ASAP.
I think the player could do with a general accuracy buff and either more gradual influence increases, significant hack success rate increases for scan/fab machines, or item integrity boosts across the board. I understand that combat is meant to be the harder route, but as it stands, it is both harder and more random due to item attrition and the inability to reposition/escape well with overburdened treads.
Edit: And don't even get me started on recyclers. I think dropped items should have X turns immunity to the greedy bastards, maybe 50 for starters.
Spoiler
Cogmind - Alpha 3c
Name: zzxc
---[ CORE DESTROYED ]---
Performance
-------------
Evolutions (6) 3000
Robots Destroyed (323) 1615
Value Destroyed (13143) 13143
Prototype IDs (21) 420
Alien Tech Identified (0) 0
Bonus (0) 0
TOTAL SCORE: 18178
Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity 0/1150
Matter 121/300
Energy 48/50
System Corruption 10%
Temperature Cool (0)
Location -4/Factory
Parts
-------
Power (3)
Propulsion (2)
Utility (10)
Weapon (4)
Inventory
-----------
Improved Targeting Computer
Matter Compressor
Advanced Heat Sink
Peak State
------------
Power
Light Anti-Matter Reactor
Light Quantum Reactor
Micro Fission Core
Propulsion
Improved Treads
Improved Treads
Utility
Improved Heat Sink
Improved Medium Armor Plating
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Heat Sink
Large Storage Unit
Advanced Power Amplifier
Medium Storage Unit
Improved Fusion Compressor
Medium Storage Unit
Improved Force Field
Weapon
Enhanced Gauss Cannon
KE Penetrator
Compact Ion Cannon
Improved KE Penetrator
[Rating: 92]
Favorites
-----------
Power Improved Deuterium Engine
Engine Improved Deuterium Engine
Power Core Micro Fission Core
Reactor Light Anti-Matter Reactor
Propulsion Light Treads
Treads Light Treads
Leg Aluminum Leg
Flight Unit Flight Unit
Utility High-capacity Storage Unit
Device Advanced Heat Sink
Storage High-capacity Storage Unit
Processor Improved Target Analyzer
Protection Improved Heavy Armor Plating
Weapon Mini Assault Cannon
Energy Gun Plasma Rifle
Energy Cannon Compact Ion Cannon
Ballistic Gun KE Penetrator
Ballistic Cannon Mini Assault Cannon
Launcher Improved Grenade Launcher
Stats
-------
Classes Destroyed 18
Worker 30
Builder 33
Tunneler 4
Hauler 12
Recycler 30
Mechanic 2
Operator 1
Watcher 7
Swarmer 28
Saboteur 1
Grunt 96
Brawler 7
Duelist 8
Protector 2
Sentry 13
Hunter 23
Programmer 24
Behemoth 2
NPCs Destroyed 0
Best Kill Streak 15
Combat Bots Only 12
Matter Collected 10588
Salvage Created 13844
Parts Attached 387
Power 40
Propulsion 46
Utility 160
Weapon 141
Parts Lost 163
Power 20
Propulsion 11
Utility 86
Weapon 46
Average Slot Usage (%) 92
Naked Turns 50
Spaces Moved 4445
Fastest Speed (%) 200
Slowest Speed (%) 7
Overloaded Moves 0
Propulsion Burnouts 0
Targets Rammed 31
Cave-ins Triggered 0
Teleports 0
Heaviest Build 115
Greatest Overweight (x) 27
Average Overweight (x) 2
Largest Inventory 34
Most Items Carried 32
Average Items Carried 21
Core Damage Taken 3044
Volleys Fired 750
Largest 4
Hottest 285
Shots Fired 1824
Gun 905
Cannon 869
Launcher 50
Special 0
Kinetic 1111
Thermal 525
Explosive 50
Electromagnetic 138
Shots Hit Robots 1076
Core Hits 634
Overload Shots 0
Energy Bleed 0
Heat Surge 0
Short Circuit 0
Meltdown 0
Melee Attacks 0
Impact 0
Slashing 0
Piercing 0
Damage Inflicted 36650
Projectiles 26663
Explosions 9940
Melee 0
Ramming 47
Highest Temperature 375
Average Temperature 71
Shutdowns 0
Energy Bleed 3
Interference 3
Matter Decay 0
Short Circuit 0
Damage (minor) 0
Damage (major) 0
Damage (core) 0
Highest Corruption 15
Message Errors 41
Parts Rejected 15
Data loss (map) 55
Data loss (database) 24
Misfires 4
Misdirections 12
Targeting Errors 48
Weapon Failures 11
Haulers Intercepted 12
Robots Corrupted 0
Robots Melted 7
Tactical Retreats 29
Communications Jammed 0
Parts Field Recycled 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Merge Repaired 0
Drone Launches 0
Drone Recoveries 0
Derelicts Assembled 0
Traps Triggered 0
Indirectly 0
Trap Hack Attempts 0
Triggered 0
Disarmed 0
Reprogrammed 0
Reused 0
Machine Familiarity 25
Terminals 16
Fabricators 7
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 2
Machines Hacked 25
Terminals 16
Fabricators 7
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 2
Total Hacks 94
Successful 42
Failed 52
Catastrophic 14
Database Lockouts 0
Manual 15
Terminals 59
Fabricators 29
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 6
Terminal Hacks 23
Record 8
Part Schematic 1
Robot Schematic 0
Robot Analysis 0
Prototype ID Bank 0
Open Door 0
Level Access Points 0
Branch Access Points 2
Emergency Access Points 0
Machine Index 0
Terminal Index 0
Fabricator Index 0
Repair Station Index 0
Recycling Unit Index 0
Scanalyzer Index 0
Alert Level 2
Unreport Threat 1
Locate Traps 1
Disarm Traps 0
Reprogram Traps 0
Dispatch Records 0
Maintenance Status 0
Security Status 0
Surveillance Status 0
Patrol Status 0
Transport Status 1
Investigation Status 0
Extermination Status 0
Reinforcement Status 1
Assault Status 0
Recall Investigation 0
Recall Extermination 0
Recall Reinforcements 0
Recall Assault 0
Hauler Manifests 0
Registered Components 0
Registered Prototypes 0
Zone Layout 2
Sector Layout 0
Machine Controls 4
Hacking Detections 29
Full Trace Events 14
Feedback Events 2
Feedback Corruption 2
Feedback Part Disabled 0
Feedback Blocked 0
Robot Schematics Acquired 0
Robots Built 0
Total Robot Build Rating 0
Robot Fabrication Matter 0
Robot Fabrication Time 0
Part Schematics Acquired 4
Parts Built 4
Total Part Build Rating 4
Part Fabrication Matter 80
Part Fabrication Time 240
Parts Repaired 0
Part Repair Time 0
Parts Recycled 0
Recycled Matter 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Scanalyzed 3
Part Schematics Acquired 3
Parts Damaged 0
Robot Analysis Total 0
Robots Rewired 0
Robots Hacked 0
Non-combat 0
Combat 0
Parse 0
Link 0
Rebooted 0
Overloaded 0
Assimilated 0
Manual 0
Secondary 0
Robot Hack Failures 0
Allies Hacked 0
Hacks Repelled 0
Total Allies 7
Largest Group 0
Highest-Rated Group 0
Highest-Rated Ally 0
Total Orders 0
STAY 0
GOTO 0
ROAM 0
FOLLOW 0
GUARD 0
AID 0
BUILD 0
TUNNEL 0
DROP 0
PICKUP 0
COLLECT 0
EXPLORE 0
RETURN 0
Terraforming Orders 0
Walls Built 0
Walls Tunneled 0
Ally Attacks 0
Total Damage 0
Kills 0
Allies Corrupted 0
Allies Melted 0
Peak Influence 2232
Average Influence 605
Maximum Alert Level 4
Low Security (%) 21
Level 1 23
Level 2 30
Level 3 16
Level 4 8
Level 5 0
Squads Dispatched 57
Investigation 14
Extermination 16
Reinforcement 14
Assault 13
Exploration Rate (%) 23
Regions Visited 8
Turns Passed 12423
Depth 11 81
Depth 10 1114
Depth 9 716
Depth 8 893
Depth 7 2279
Depth 6 3529
Depth 5 2422
Depth 4 1389
Scrapyard 81
Materials 2723
Factory 9619
Prototype IDs
---------------
Enhanced Nuclear Core
Light Neutrino Core
Improved Medium Laser
Advanced Beam Rifle
Heavy Gatling Laser
Heavy Wave Gun
Precision Shock Rifle
Advanced Beam Cannon
Compact Ion Cannon
Precision Assault Rifle
Improved KE Penetrator
Mini Assault Cannon
Rocket Array
Precision Rocket Launcher
Scatter Rocket Array
Tiamat Missile Launcher
Guided EMP Blaster
Advanced Power Amplifier
Experimental Thermal Converter
Precision Energy Filter
Improved Fusion Compressor
Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None
Game
------
Seed: 1442149743
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 187 min
Sessions: 6
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 20
ASCII: 1
Keyboard: 0
Font: 18/Terminus
Map View: 76x50
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Quote from: zxc on September 14, 2015, 01:27:04 AM
Combat win remains elusive...
I understand that combat is meant to be the harder route, but as it stands, it is both harder and more random due to item attrition and the inability to reposition/escape well with overburdened treads.
The late game will change significantly with the addition of new branches, including ways to make it easier (the first should come in Alpha 4), so it's too early to make other major adjustments there. For 3c I already made Research and Access about 20% easier than when Adraius won his combat run.
I might make some more tweaks when we get back to doing seed runs after the Alpha Challenge. I need to do some more full-length combat runs myself, though as you say they do take a good bit longer.
Quote from: zxc on September 14, 2015, 01:27:04 AM
Edit: And don't even get me started on recyclers. I think dropped items should have X turns immunity to the greedy bastards, maybe 50 for starters.
There are additional ways to deal with them that haven't been added yet, but they won't be outright nerfed like that. I almost never have problems with them as is--scaring them away works fine. Only in the occasional protracted intense battle do they get the upper hand.
Another change coming down the pipe: You'll be able to track them to the nearest Recycling Unit and hack to get back all the parts they collected. (As well as in other ways, to be announced...)
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 14, 2015, 05:08:08 AM
For 3c I already made Research and Access about 20% easier than when Adraius won his combat run.
However, Adraius has had difficulty replicating that run, which illustrates the randomness of combat runs in general. The number of HCP storage units you find or can create, for instance, is something you have very little control over yet has a lasting impact on the outcome of a combat run. Likewise, the number of armour pieces you find, and timely force fields and so on.
I am fairly consistently reaching -4 to -2, and consistently dying there due to attrition, while trying variations of Adraius' strategy. I'd like to discuss combat run theory-crafting in depth in another thread perhaps, but it seems to me that sooner or later a combat run will end due to attrition almost regardless of what the player does.
Also, my experience with traps so far is that they are certainly a net negative for the player. I haven't yet tried to rewire them, but for a stealth run I would guess that this is more trouble than simply avoiding both the trap and the enemy. For combat runs, all the programmer spawns make system corruption surge high, reducing hacking ability (making alert purge extremely difficult). Making use of rewired traps may also be difficult with overburdened treads and ranged enemies, and in any case they would be one-use, preventing
My last two runs ended in Research -2. While I agree that combat runs are way harder (duh) and RNG'y, I find them to be fair and exhilarating. I can tell I'm getting better cause I'm now able to see my mistakes. I feel like I'm on the cusp of a win. Most recent mistake: Forcefields without batteries is asking for pain.
Another thing: Recyclers in research drop medium storage units. Not ideal but had I remembered that one of my Research runs would have been very different.
I wouldn't mind an ever so slight increase in Hcp storage unit drops. That said, I think we can't really talk balance until we all understand the game better and the branches are in.
Quote from: zxc on September 14, 2015, 05:55:52 AM
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 14, 2015, 05:08:08 AM
For 3c I already made Research and Access about 20% easier than when Adraius won his combat run.
However, Adraius has had difficulty replicating that run, which illustrates the randomness of combat runs in general.
True, though he's only played a couple games since the Challenge started... The mid- and late-game branches will be for those who would like to stack the odds more in their favor. Hopefully you'll be able to make decisions that adjust the difficult to a somewhat controllable degree, but still leave open the "I'm going to blast my way straight to the end" approach that some players may enjoy.
It looks like you were attracting quite a lot of attention in your combat run, compared to other players at that stage.
Quote from: zxc on September 14, 2015, 05:55:52 AM
Also, my experience with traps so far is that they are certainly a net negative for the player. I haven't yet tried to rewire them
Not rewiring them at all would make them a net negative, yes :)
Quote from: zxc on September 14, 2015, 05:55:52 AM
For combat runs, all the programmer spawns make system corruption surge high, reducing hacking ability (making alert purge extremely difficult).
Trap rewiring can be done via datajack, though, which is quite easy and unaffected by system corruption. There are some
really mean things you can do with traps.
Also, I don't believe anyone's discovered the new way to reset your security level to 0 when it gets out of hand. It's somewhat costly, but under the right circumstances it can be useful... (There will be a tip on that later.)
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 14, 2015, 09:50:04 AM
Trap rewiring can be done via datajack, though, which is quite easy and unaffected by system corruption. There are some really mean things you can do with traps.
Well that's cool. I will need to play around with it more in a test run.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 14, 2015, 09:50:04 AM
It looks like you were attracting quite a lot of attention in your combat run, compared to other players at that stage.
Oh yes. Oh yes. But I didn't seek out enemies intentionally. If anything, I try to avoid them, even with a combat build. But that's the combat build randomness that's I'm talking about. I just got heaps of enemies, and it just spiraled out of control despite my best efforts. I even purged threat once or twice.
So close. So close. Got to -1 with a less than ideal build but it was doable. Got into a nasty situation where in a long hallway there were two teams of terminators on either side. Prevailed but lost lots of key utilities and my launchers. Rebuilt, pressed on and
Spoiler
found the exit, got ridiculously excited, realized I found the locked branch to Command, die very soon thereafter.
So close. Assuming I have enough time to play, I think I'll squeeze out a win. I'm extremely sure that that the trick to research is drone bays and a really powerful launcher. I wouldn't have gotten to Access without my micro nuke launcher.
The post mortem:
Spoiler
Cogmind - Alpha 3c
Name: Happylisk
---[ CORE DESTROYED ]---
Performance
-------------
Evolutions (9) 4500
Robots Destroyed (288) 1440
Value Destroyed (11014) 11014
Prototype IDs (13) 260
Alien Tech Identified (0) 0
Bonus (0) 0
TOTAL SCORE: 17214
Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity 0/1600
Matter 285/300
Energy 50/50
System Corruption 2%
Temperature Cool (12)
Location -1/Access
Parts
-------
Power (4)
Propulsion (2)
Utility (15)
Weapon (4)
Inventory
-----------
High-density Centrium Heavy Treads
Light Particle Reactor
High-capacity Storage Unit
Peak State
------------
Power
Light Quantum Reactor
Particle Reactor
Light Particle Reactor
Micro Fission Core
Propulsion
High-density Centrium Heavy Treads
Utility
Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Advanced Targeting Computer
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Cloaking Device
Advanced Targeting Computer
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Heat Sink
Compact Battery
Advanced Core Analyzer
Weapon
Compact HERF Cannon
Railgun
Quantum Rifle
Enhanced Quantum Rifle
[Rating: 148]
Favorites
-----------
Power Micro Fission Core
Engine Light Angular Momentum Engine
Power Core Micro Fission Core
Reactor Light Anti-Matter Reactor
Propulsion Light Treads
Treads Light Treads
Wheel Wheel
Leg Flexi-carbon Leg
Hover Unit Anti-Grav System
Utility Medium Storage Unit
Device Advanced Heat Sink
Storage Medium Storage Unit
Processor Targeting Computer
Protection Core Shielding
Weapon Compact Ion Cannon
Energy Gun Heavy Beamcaster
Energy Cannon Compact Ion Cannon
Ballistic Gun Assault Rifle
Ballistic Cannon Linear Accelerator
Launcher Improved Proton Missile Launcher
Stats
-------
Classes Destroyed 18
Worker 27
Builder 29
Tunneler 2
Hauler 10
Recycler 19
Mechanic 3
Operator 1
Drone 1
Watcher 5
Swarmer 60
Saboteur 1
Grunt 60
Brawler 4
Duelist 3
Protector 1
Sentry 16
Hunter 24
Programmer 22
NPCs Destroyed 0
Best Kill Streak 15
Combat Bots Only 10
Matter Collected 8224
Salvage Created 13028
Parts Attached 419
Power 53
Propulsion 49
Utility 163
Weapon 154
Parts Lost 191
Power 26
Propulsion 17
Utility 100
Weapon 48
Average Slot Usage (%) 81
Naked Turns 72
Spaces Moved 6919
Fastest Speed (%) 222
Slowest Speed (%) 4
Overloaded Moves 0
Propulsion Burnouts 0
Targets Rammed 2
Cave-ins Triggered 0
Teleports 0
Heaviest Build 170
Greatest Overweight (x) 45
Average Overweight (x) 3
Largest Inventory 28
Most Items Carried 24
Average Items Carried 9
Core Damage Taken 3322
Volleys Fired 690
Largest 4
Hottest 338
Shots Fired 1472
Gun 722
Cannon 586
Launcher 164
Special 0
Kinetic 579
Thermal 609
Explosive 70
Electromagnetic 214
Shots Hit Robots 819
Core Hits 558
Overload Shots 1
Energy Bleed 0
Heat Surge 0
Short Circuit 0
Meltdown 0
Melee Attacks 0
Impact 0
Slashing 0
Piercing 0
Damage Inflicted 34829
Projectiles 20582
Explosions 14247
Melee 0
Ramming 0
Highest Temperature 476
Average Temperature 139
Shutdowns 19
Energy Bleed 4
Interference 5
Matter Decay 3
Short Circuit 1
Damage (minor) 3
Damage (major) 0
Damage (core) 0
Highest Corruption 12
Message Errors 53
Parts Rejected 14
Data loss (map) 55
Data loss (database) 33
Misfires 10
Misdirections 22
Targeting Errors 23
Weapon Failures 6
Haulers Intercepted 10
Robots Corrupted 15
Robots Melted 8
Tactical Retreats 30
Communications Jammed 0
Parts Field Recycled 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Merge Repaired 0
Drone Launches 6
Drone Recoveries 0
Derelicts Assembled 0
Traps Triggered 0
Indirectly 0
Trap Hack Attempts 0
Triggered 0
Disarmed 0
Reprogrammed 0
Reused 0
Machine Familiarity 19
Terminals 19
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Machines Hacked 19
Terminals 19
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Total Hacks 65
Successful 9
Failed 56
Catastrophic 18
Database Lockouts 0
Manual 22
Terminals 65
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Terminal Hacks 9
Record 0
Part Schematic 1
Robot Schematic 0
Robot Analysis 0
Prototype ID Bank 1
Open Door 3
Level Access Points 1
Branch Access Points 0
Emergency Access Points 0
Machine Index 0
Terminal Index 0
Fabricator Index 0
Repair Station Index 0
Recycling Unit Index 0
Scanalyzer Index 0
Alert Level 0
Unreport Threat 1
Locate Traps 1
Disarm Traps 0
Reprogram Traps 0
Dispatch Records 0
Maintenance Status 0
Security Status 0
Surveillance Status 0
Patrol Status 0
Transport Status 0
Investigation Status 0
Extermination Status 0
Reinforcement Status 0
Assault Status 0
Recall Investigation 0
Recall Extermination 0
Recall Reinforcements 0
Recall Assault 0
Hauler Manifests 0
Registered Components 0
Registered Prototypes 0
Zone Layout 0
Sector Layout 0
Machine Controls 1
Hacking Detections 26
Full Trace Events 15
Feedback Events 2
Feedback Corruption 2
Feedback Part Disabled 0
Feedback Blocked 0
Robot Schematics Acquired 0
Robots Built 0
Total Robot Build Rating 0
Robot Fabrication Matter 0
Robot Fabrication Time 0
Part Schematics Acquired 1
Parts Built 0
Total Part Build Rating 0
Part Fabrication Matter 0
Part Fabrication Time 0
Parts Repaired 0
Part Repair Time 0
Parts Recycled 0
Recycled Matter 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Scanalyzed 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Damaged 0
Robot Analysis Total 0
Robots Rewired 0
Robots Hacked 0
Non-combat 0
Combat 0
Parse 0
Link 0
Rebooted 0
Overloaded 0
Assimilated 0
Manual 0
Secondary 0
Robot Hack Failures 0
Allies Hacked 0
Hacks Repelled 0
Total Allies 20
Largest Group 3
Highest-Rated Group 13
Highest-Rated Ally 5
Total Orders 6
STAY 0
GOTO 0
ROAM 0
FOLLOW 0
GUARD 0
AID 0
BUILD 0
TUNNEL 0
DROP 0
PICKUP 0
COLLECT 0
EXPLORE 6
RETURN 0
Terraforming Orders 0
Walls Built 0
Walls Tunneled 0
Ally Attacks 0
Total Damage 0
Kills 0
Allies Corrupted 0
Allies Melted 0
Peak Influence 2820
Average Influence 476
Maximum Alert Level 4
Low Security (%) 51
Level 1 17
Level 2 9
Level 3 11
Level 4 9
Level 5 0
Squads Dispatched 48
Investigation 15
Extermination 11
Reinforcement 10
Assault 12
Exploration Rate (%) 19
Regions Visited 14
Turns Passed 15517
Depth 11 113
Depth 10 566
Depth 9 1129
Depth 8 1127
Depth 7 1189
Depth 6 4489
Depth 5 1565
Depth 4 915
Depth 3 426
Depth 2 1240
Depth 1 2758
Scrapyard 113
Materials 2822
Factory 6641
Research 1666
Access 2758
Storage 799
Waste 718
Prototype IDs
---------------
High-density Centrium Heavy Treads
Improved Flight Unit
Precision Beam Rifle
Cooled Particle Cannon
Compact Ion Cannon
Precision Grenade Launcher
Tiamat Missile Launcher
Experimental Cooling System
Experimental Power Amplifier
Inertial Stasis Machine
Quarantine Testbed
Thermal Defense Suite
Advanced Overload Amplifier
Experimental Field Recycling Unit
Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None
Game
------
Seed: 1442229537
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 191 min
Sessions: 30
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 57
ASCII: 0
Keyboard: 1
Font: 12/Cogmind
Map View: 76x56
X=9806141699337996648841116611
151651816125288818165148128841
498828455191651481611198515111
691112812849192545581468155659
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1699828811582423
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 14, 2015, 09:50:04 AM
Also, I don't believe anyone's discovered the new way to reset your security level to 0 when it gets out of hand. It's somewhat costly, but under the right circumstances it can be useful... (There will be a tip on that later.)
WHAT!? 8)
Are there in-game clues at this point to deduce how to do this?
Very close run, Happylisk!
Spoiler
Too bad it was Command and not the other one, otherwise you would've been out! (And with the top score at that.) That's why zxc just makes sure to hack the location and get out of there as soon as possible.
About Adraius, I was looking at the records, and he disappeared after only playing two very short runs that ended in -9, so our original combat Cogmind is unfortunately MIA :/
Quote from: Shobalk on September 14, 2015, 11:40:42 AM
WHAT!? 8)
Are there in-game clues at this point to deduce how to do this?
Hehe, no. It's not impossible to deduce, but you'd have to get lucky or keep an unreasonably close eye on your security level. The hint will be available from NPCs you'll meet later (okay, they'll outright tell you). Like I said though, it's costly. It also may only be of limited use for anyone who can already punch their way through the Factory without too much difficulty, since it only works in the Factory.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 14, 2015, 08:45:49 PMSpoiler
That's why zxc just makes sure to hack the location and get out of there as soon as possible.
Spoiler
Actually in my last few runs I've been escaping without managing to hack the location of the exit. It's becoming easier over time to work out where the exit will be. Generally I find Access easier than Research for a stealth run.
Excellent! It was my hope that experienced players will start to learn how each type of map is generally laid out, which while not always being a 100% certainty, this meta knowledge can free up some in-game resources for other uses.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 14, 2015, 11:41:01 PM
Excellent! It was my hope that experienced players will start to learn how each type of map is generally laid out, which while not always being a 100% certainty, this meta knowledge can free up some in-game resources for other uses.
Finding exits in Research can be ridiculous though. It's like it's been designed for screwing with me! I do think Research is definitely the hardest part of the game, for any type of run.
Would be cool to generate layouts and see overviews of each map type with full visibility. I used to do it in DCSS wizmode to better learn level and monster generation.
As per an earlier discussion with nsg21 (http://www.gridsagegames.com/forums/index.php?topic=58.msg378#msg378), it's possible we'll get map output capability. Not so sure about full visibility of undiscovered areas; some maps might be too easy to learn that way. We'll see, it's on the long-term list.
I was thinking something more like a large image output:
(http://www.gridsagegames.com/cogmind/game/cogmind_composite_map_factory.png)
Also, I noticed recently I reached the edge of the map:
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/23CbTed.png)
Could it be better to have an unbreakable wall around the edges instead of just blackness? I'm not sure really.
Yeah, the map image is what I was talking about in the other thread. (You may have to read down a bit more.)
About the edges, that only happens if you dig/blast your way there, and I decided it was a waste of memory to pad a wall around the whole thing seeing as maps are so large. It also seems to me to be the more gamey approach, creating a visible barrier which implies it was built there.
Re: Maps, Access wasn't actually that bad.
Spoiler
I tried hacking the exit, but without hackware that went nowhere fast. I remember reading that the exit in access is near the center of the map, and that proved true.
I was thinking about my run last night and what kills me is how, well, I got killed. After I found Command I was a bit confused (and extremely disappointed. I was so damn excited opening those three doors beforehand). I thought, hey maybe the main exit is just a bit south. Just a bit south turned out to be the 2 B-99 Colossi guarding Command who blew my armor and guns off. Had I been a bit more spoiled, I would have turned back upon finding Command and would have still had a shot at escaping. I'm playing cogmind about 95% unspoiled though so I appreciate learning that the hard way.
Also, I didn't realize there were branches in Research. Found Quarantine for the first time. Really looking forward to getting my hands on some Sigix gear when that branch opens. 8)
I'm more determined than ever after my Access death. I'm going to modify my gameplan slightly by adding fabrication into the mix. Doing more terminal hacking (especially
Spoiler
Access(Main))
really improved my game. I suspect not using basic fabrication is an unnecessary handicap, so it's time to fix that.
My goal is try to manufacture 2 Hcp. Storage Units before leaving Materials and 2 Drone bays before leaving Factory. The hcp units will take a lot of RNG out of the equation, and 2 drone bays are enough to make Research a thousand times easier (deploy one drone and then turn the bay off. If the first one finds the exit, deploying the second is a waste. Follow your drone around with the Alt-movement map command. If two are needed to find the exit, you want to delay the second launch anyway lest they travel together which is 99% of the time a waste).
K, I know drone bays are rating 3. Should be easy enough to get that schematic through indirect hacks. How much matter would it take to make one? Can I just have the matter in a container in my inventory, or do I need to attach it to a utility slot before fabrication? I've never done fabrication before.
Finally, I'm going to add
Spoiler
Inventory(Components)
to my list of routine indirect hacks. If there are drone bays just lying around, that's a heck of a lot easier than manufacturing them.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 15, 2015, 06:50:33 AM
Re: Maps, Access wasn't actually that bad.
Spoiler
I tried hacking the exit, but without hackware that went nowhere fast. I remember reading that the exit in access is near the center of the map, and that proved true.
I was thinking about my run last night and what kills me is how, well, I got killed. After I found Command I was a bit confused (and extremely disappointed. I was so damn excited opening those three doors beforehand). I thought, hey maybe the main exit is just a bit south. Just a bit south turned out to be the 2 B-99 Colossi guarding Command who blew my armor and guns off. Had I been a bit more spoiled, I would have turned back upon finding Command and would have still had a shot at escaping. I'm playing cogmind about 95% unspoiled though so I appreciate learning that the hard way.
Also, I didn't realize there were branches in Research. Found Quarantine for the first time. Really looking forward to getting my hands on some Sigix gear when that branch opens. 8)
I'm more determined than ever after my Access death. I'm going to modify my gameplan slightly by adding fabrication into the mix. Doing more terminal hacking (especially Spoiler
Access(Main))
My goal is try to manufacture 2 Hcp. Storage Units before leaving Materials and 2 Drone bays before leaving Factory. The hcp units will take a lot of RNG out of the equation, and 2 drone bays are enough to make Research a thousand times easier (deploy one drone and then turn the bay off. If the first one finds the exit, deploying the second is a waste. Follow your drone around with the Alt-movement map command. If two are needed to find the exit, you want to delay the second launch anyway lest they travel together which is 99% of the time a waste).
K, I know drone bays are rating 3. Should be easy enough to get that schematic through indirect hacks. How much matter would it take to make one? Can I just have the matter in a container in my inventory, or do I need to attach it to a utility slot before fabrication? I've never done fabrication before.
Finally, I'm going to add Spoiler
Inventory(Components)
Matter container in your inventory is fine for fabrication. It's interesting how highly you value drone bays. I haven't tried them out myself. Maybe I should.
You don't use drones?!? Seriously dude, that's why you're struggling in Research. A drone launch (especially when you do it right and stagger the drones) has a real decent high chance of finding the exit. Even if it doesn't, it'll show you caches of items, you know which rooms to skip, you can see patrols, etc. Less time exploring is less time getting programmers dispatched. I breezed through Research cause of just 2 bays. They're only rating 3 so I'm confidant a dedicated combat cog could probably fab them with ease.
Info is king in this game. A pure combat cog can't hack it (literally) and doesn't have the speed and the sensor arrays of a stealth build. Drone bays are the most reliable way for a combat cog to get info once the security levels of terminals gets too high.
E: I answered my question above. A drone bay just takes 40 matter to fab. That's nothing! However, I was wrong about their rating. Rating 5. I wonder how feasible it will be to reliably fab them absent dedicated hackware. If fabbing them proves too hard, using a certain terminal hack to find drone caches in factory and just fabbing hcp storage units may be the way to go.
Spoiler
Quote from: Happylisk on September 15, 2015, 06:50:33 AM
Also, I didn't realize there were branches in Research. Found Quarantine for the first time. Really looking forward to getting my hands on some Sigix gear when that branch opens. 8)
It'll knock their robotic socks off. Some toys can be very, very dangerous though ;)
Quote from: Happylisk on September 15, 2015, 07:43:51 AM
E: I answered my question above. A drone bay just takes 40 matter to fab. That's nothing! However, I was wrong about their rating. Rating 5. I wonder how feasible it will be to reliably fab them absent dedicated hackware. If fabbing them proves too hard, using a certain terminal hack to find drone caches in factory and just fabbing hcp storage units may be the way to go.
You've probably noticed there's often a cache found in Storage, too, if you want to go there. (Not 100% guaranteed, though.)
Our latest set of stats:
(https://i.imgur.com/SctQVzA.png)
Those min/max slot stats are very cool. I'm not sure they tell us that much, but I don't care, they're very cool!
I just had another combat run end in -3. This time I played much more carefully than usual, and made good use of drone bays (I now agree they are fantastic). I got lucky with some level exit hacks on -4 and -3, but reaching the stairs is another story. I'm telling you, I played it as perfectly as I could, but I still ended up dying simply due to attrition. I took a lot of screenshots to chronicle the run, especially the last floor where it all ended. I'm not sure there are major refinements to make to my strategy now - just playing carefully like that and hoping to get lucky. At the very end I ran out of weapons and took advantage of some flight units I was standing on to swap to flight and get away from a losing battle. With a few flight units and a power source I reached the stairs, but it was blocked by a sentry and I had enemies on all sides. I tried waiting nearby to get the sentry to move, but my core integrity was too low and I ended up dying before it moved. 12k score, reflecting my avoidance of enemies and care. Also, not a single HCP storage unit, and so few armour items to be had that I was suffocating. I still had a decent setup around late factory due to a cache of Imp. Force Fields and good power sources, but without enough armour they eventually all fell off.
I hate nosy ARCs.
Also, what exactly is the kill streak stat?
Edit:
Screenshot story of that run:
Spoiler
Start of -4. Doing OK considering the lack of decent armour.
(https://i.imgur.com/0cgdiek.png)
Now here is something truly nasty. I was moving to a better position to fight from, but between moves my treads get rejected and my move delay suddenly becomes 1900; so unwittingly I allow a bunch of attacks on me. I think part rejection should stop actions for a time and be made slightly more obvious (like the collision warning).
(https://i.imgur.com/UDSBqVy.png)
Not in a good state...
(https://i.imgur.com/C2FWcZL.png)
Start of -3. I've salvaged the situation to a degree. Looking dandy now. Also, the entrance is enclosed inside a secret passage. How bizarre.
(https://i.imgur.com/wewkJts.png)
Amazingly I hack the location of the exits. It's a long trek.
(https://i.imgur.com/LswP3fO.png)
Nasty battle
(https://i.imgur.com/JOeb70E.png)
that never ends...
(https://i.imgur.com/4yNvP8o.png)
It's actually not a huge battle by the standards of my other combat runs, but nevertheless it's a key battle because it's so damaging. I'm out of weapons.
(https://i.imgur.com/pqt5xlU.png)
Salvaged what I could. You can see this is still extremely terrible. The slots are filled but this is the edge of ruin.
(https://i.imgur.com/bBs0Gqf.png)
I manage to defeat two programmers with just a Hvy. Laser. Notice the flight units.
(https://i.imgur.com/fUywCLj.png)
Doing what I can... It is pretty much just a question of when I will die at this point.
(https://i.imgur.com/B3MlnU5.png)
Yep, thank you ARC. That'll do it.
(https://i.imgur.com/bnohJtY.png)
Now to try the most flimsy long-shot...
(https://i.imgur.com/lQl7MP7.png)
I did say flimsy.
(https://i.imgur.com/aa3FUSi.png)
And I did say long-shot.
(https://i.imgur.com/waDQYWE.png)
I'm very glad you found Drones to be an effective addition to the repertoire. They're literally my favorite find.
Have you used utility/weapon shieldings? The thing about armor is you can't stack too much at once. You'll get hot. You can't stack too many force fields either. You'll run out of energy. In my last game, I found a huge stash of weapon and utility shielding in Research. I slapped like 3 utility shieldings on at once. They really increased the lifespan of my items. Mmade a huge, noticeable difference. The great thing about shielding is that it doesn't cost energy or create heat. You don't need propulsion shielding because your treads are so tough, and you don't need power shielding cause I found power sources to be bountiful.
I think the ideal defense set up is some decent armor, a forcefield with a battery/energy well, and utility shielding to increase the lifespan of everything. And big f'ing launchers to nuke enemy clusters before they can get off more than 2 volleys.
Do the stairs on Access actually exist? I've had two games where I wandered around for a good half an hour before running out of juice. This is driving me mad.
Quote from: zxc on September 15, 2015, 11:36:33 AM
Those min/max slot stats are very cool. I'm not sure they tell us that much, but I don't care, they're very cool!
I think there is some interesting information in there. I'll analyze the complete graph at the end (but everything will come with caveats).
Quote from: zxc on September 15, 2015, 11:36:33 AM
Also, what exactly is the kill streak stat?
Chaining together kills of combat robots within a certain amount of time from the previous kill.
Quote from: zxc on September 15, 2015, 11:36:33 AM
I think part rejection should stop actions for a time and be made slightly more obvious (like the collision warning).
I already added this in Alpha 3. It's on a 500ms timer (the same as the collision/trap warning), and won't let you move during that period. Increasing the timer length (1s?) would be a possibility because it's not as common, and unlike collisions/traps, you won't see a visible change on the map (only the log message and part drop sound) so you may be less likely to stop.
Quote from: zxc on September 15, 2015, 11:36:33 AM
Start of -3. I've salvaged the situation to a degree. Looking dandy now. Also, the entrance is enclosed inside a secret passage. How bizarre.
Haha, that's hilarious. I didn't know that one was possible, but it makes sense based on the code; I should fix that.
Do you always carry extra treads? I didn't see any in your inventory in those shots, though they may have been beyond the end of the visible list. I would never want to be without them since they provide you with a lot of armor.
Also, yesterday I noticed something about your play style from the achievement values I've been watching, and discovered why you're getting beset upon by increasingly deadly swarms of robots: the central AI is considering you far too efficient and therefore a much bigger threat than all the other Cogminds (by
far). No one comes close to your efficiency in replacing damaged parts, and the enemy doesn't feel that it can do enough to stop you.
So basically the AI is working as intended, and has identified you as a ruthlessly efficient opponent that needs to be dealt with via strong response. That efficiency works in your favor in non-combat runs, but it's working against you in combat runs, because you're always in the enemy's face with a pristine build that's endlessly cycling parts. By comparison it thinks it's doing okay against Happylisk and Agroesch and thus they're reaching Access against less resistance.
Quote from: Agroesch on September 15, 2015, 03:45:12 PM
Do the stairs on Access actually exist? I've had two games where I wandered around for a good half an hour before running out of juice. This is driving me mad.
The answer to that has been spoilered a few times on the forum before. (zxc's stealth guide tells you how to escape if you'd like to see.) Right now there aren't enough clues on how to escape--only one indirect clue if you've spent some time in Storage before. There will be more info to help with that added later; before then you could consider just reading a spoiler.
Also consider revealing the exit location via hacking or terrain scanners.
Wait, so playing the game well makes the game shoot you harder?
I'd thought it focused on killing you proportionate to how much you were slaughtering things/causing havock; not by how well you were actually doing.
This feels a little odd, given half the fun of most roguelikes is 'beating the curve' and then trying very hard to stay ahead. Here, that will apparently get you killed? ;)
Quote from: Reiver on September 15, 2015, 09:12:58 PM
Wait, so playing the game well makes the game shoot you harder?
I'd thought it focused on killing you proportionate to how much you were slaughtering things/causing havock; not by how well you were actually doing.
Not exactly. (I wasn't even going to mention all of this because it was meant as a secret adaptive
nerf for the enemy, but it's affecting zxc and he's being really vocal about it so I wanted to point out the reason--it's unique to his situation.)
What I did way back in Alpha 2 was make the AI go easier on threats if they believe that threat is being dealt with, which I feel it perfectly logical. It makes this judgment based on whether or not they are blasting a target to pieces.
The public changelog worded this vaguely:
Quote
* MOD: Security level is reduced as you lose allies, and when Complex 0b10 AI believes you are being adequately dealt with and pose less of a threat
It's still possible to beat the curve, it's just difficult and the challenge is greater the better you are, due to your enemy's natural response to a threat. (And as mentioned before there will later be additional tools and methods by which to overcome that difficulty regardless of your play style, so I have to balance for things that don't exist yet.)
In short, I made a change in Alpha 2 that makes the game easier for players who aren't performing as well, not the other way around (earlier it was an even playing field, but I like the new system which continues to reflect the idea of a "living dungeon").
Also, Reiver why aren't you in the Challenge?
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 15, 2015, 07:25:49 PM
I already added this in Alpha 3. It's on a 500ms timer (the same as the collision/trap warning), and won't let you move during that period. Increasing the timer length (1s?) would be a possibility because it's not as common, and unlike collisions/traps, you won't see a visible change on the map (only the log message and part drop sound) so you may be less likely to stop.
Please make the sound louder as well.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 15, 2015, 07:25:49 PM
Do you always carry extra treads? I didn't see any in your inventory in those shots, though they may have been beyond the end of the visible list. I would never want to be without them since they provide you with a lot of armor.
That run was the first time I started carrying extra treads. But the thing is, my 2x heavy treads got rejected and I moved off the square they were on. So then I got stuck fighting a group at that spot and by the time I was done, those treads were gone (recyclers probably). So I had to wear my backup treads. And I never found enough treads ever again.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 15, 2015, 07:25:49 PM
Also, yesterday I noticed something about your play style from the achievement values I've been watching, and discovered why you're getting beset upon by increasingly deadly swarms of robots: the central AI is considering you far too efficient and therefore a much bigger threat than all the other Cogminds (by far). No one comes close to your efficiency in replacing damaged parts, and the enemy doesn't feel that it can do enough to stop you.
So basically the AI is working as intended, and has identified you as a ruthlessly efficient opponent that needs to be dealt with via strong response. That efficiency works in your favor in non-combat runs, but it's working against you in combat runs, because you're always in the enemy's face with a pristine build that's endlessly cycling parts. By comparison it thinks it's doing okay against Happylisk and Agroesch and thus they're reaching Access against less resistance.
... what? I did not know there was a mechanism like this. And efficiency in replacing damaged parts? Is that the only measure that the AI goes by? What exactly
is efficiency in replacing damaged parts? Does it mean I replace parts before they are destroyed?
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 15, 2015, 09:30:11 PM
(I wasn't even going to mention all of this because it was meant as a secret adaptive nerf for the enemy, but it's affecting zxc and he's being really vocal about it so I wanted to point out the reason--it's unique to his situation.)
What I did way back in Alpha 2 was make the AI go easier on threats if they believe that threat is being dealt with, which I feel it perfectly logical. It makes this judgment based on whether or not they are blasting a target to pieces.
The public changelog worded this vaguely:
Quote
* MOD: Security level is reduced as you lose allies, and when Complex 0b10 AI believes you are being adequately dealt with and pose less of a threat
It's still possible to beat the curve, it's just difficult and the challenge is greater the better you are, due to your enemy's natural response to a threat. (And as mentioned before there will later be additional tools and methods by which to overcome that difficulty regardless of your play style, so I have to balance for things that don't exist yet.)
In short, I made a change in Alpha 2 that makes the game easier for players who aren't performing as well, not the other way around (earlier it was an even playing field, but I like the new system which continues to reflect the idea of a "living dungeon").
I noticed this in the changelog, but I wasn't sure what exactly it meant. I have to say this is one of the most bizarre game mechanics I've ever seen. So I need to play... less efficiently (whatever this means) in order to win? Play poorly until about -3 and then toggle on? It makes a kind of sense that the AI treats players differently based on how they are doing, but if it's so punishing against good(?) play that you'd fare better with bad(?) play then it no longer makes sense to me.
Edit: Also, I usually leave damaged parts on until they are destroyed, to make the very most of them before using the new one. I only swap out damaged parts when my inventory is full and I'd otherwise have to leave stuff behind. So what is this efficiency measure you're talking about, specifically?
Quote from: zxc on September 15, 2015, 09:55:05 PM
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 15, 2015, 07:25:49 PM
I already added this in Alpha 3. It's on a 500ms timer (the same as the collision/trap warning), and won't let you move during that period. Increasing the timer length (1s?) would be a possibility because it's not as common, and unlike collisions/traps, you won't see a visible change on the map (only the log message and part drop sound) so you may be less likely to stop.
Please make the sound louder as well.
Right now it's just the standard drop sound, so making it louder doesn't make as much sense as just adding a new alarm sound for that event. That's another important difference between it and the other events--they have their own alarm which makes it doubly obvious that something is up.
Quote from: zxc on September 15, 2015, 09:55:05 PM
So I had to wear my backup treads. And I never found enough treads ever again.
When I'm low I go after robots that are known to use treads.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 15, 2015, 07:25:49 PM
Does it mean I replace parts before they are destroyed?
Yes.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 15, 2015, 07:25:49 PM
... what? I did not know there was a mechanism like this.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 15, 2015, 07:25:49 PM
I noticed this in the changelog, but I wasn't sure what exactly it meant. I have to say this is one of the most bizarre game mechanics I've ever seen. So I need to play... less efficiently (whatever this means) in order to win? Play poorly until about -3 and then toggle on? It makes a kind of sense that the AI treats players differently based on how they are doing, but if it's so punishing against good(?) play that you'd fare better with bad(?) play then it no longer makes sense to me.
You weren't supposed to know about the mechanism, at least not yet. It was added as a nerf for the hostile AI, so you're essentially playing the game at its intended base difficulty. (Later on the plan was to reveal this mechanic via an NPC suggesting you learn this and other methods to "trick" the Complex 0b10 AI.)
It's not punishing good play; it's going easier on those who are getting shot to pieces. We could go back to the way it was pre-Alpha 2, where everyone is treated to the high security levels you're encountering, but that makes less sense in the game world.
You also get a much higher score to reflect the difficulty, hence why you still hold the high score despite having been stopped three floors below Happylisk. (A very significant difference since even without combat, three floors is 1500 points rewarded for evolution alone.)
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 15, 2015, 10:17:37 PM
It's not punishing good play; it's going easier on those who are getting shot to pieces. We could go back to the way it was pre-Alpha 2, where everyone is treated to the high security levels you're encountering, but that makes less sense in the game world.
Yes, but the optimal play may then be to let yourself get shot to pieces to minimise threat and then later on play better.
One thing I've noticed is that in most of my combat runs, the vast majority of core damage I take is on the final floor, where I die.
I am a bit sceptical that the part replacement efficiency is even a stat that reflects good play. Rather it would reflect either access to many substitute items or a higher degree of adaptation to the items gifted by RNG. Is it simply the ratio of parts attached to parts destroyed? Does that efficiency stat get pumped up when you make a lot of swaps with items in your inventory? For instance, in my last run I swapped in a tractor beam for one turn at a time to pick up matter, and hacking items for using terminals. Couldn't you possibly game this stat by equipping a lot of fragile items that get destroyed easily, even if they are functionally useless to you?
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 15, 2015, 10:17:37 PM
When I'm low I go after robots that are known to use treads.
There was a behemoth nearby that I was preparing to take out when the hunters ambushed me in that screenshot. Then after an extended fight I decided it would be better to exit the area and try to leave the level sooner, to not get bogged down fighting in one location like many times before.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 15, 2015, 01:46:37 PM
Have you used utility/weapon shieldings? The thing about armor is you can't stack too much at once. You'll get hot. You can't stack too many force fields either. You'll run out of energy. ding to increase the lifespan of everything. And big f'ing launchers to nuke enemy clusters before they can get off more than 2 volleys.
I definitely make use of utility/weapon shieldings, but the hard part is actually finding them. I found exactly zero of either in my last run. And actually you can stack heaps of armour, assuming you have it. It doesn't generate that much heat. For a combat build it's better to use cooling systems than heat sinks because they are a more slot efficient way of cooling you.
I'm not sure you can stack force fields at all. I'll look into it again, but for now I don't think you can have the effect of more than one. Running out of energy isn't a huge problem though. The idea is to stack kinetic weapons, which don't use much energy, and energy wells and solid power sources, vastly expanding your energy pool and therefore your damage mitigation. The problem I find is that 1. there isn't enough armour and utility shielding. And 2. there aren't enough kinetic weapons (I actually welcome hunters at this stage since they are the most reliable source of good kinetic weapons).
Regarding optimal defense I went over it in the theory-crafting thread, but it surely involves having armour, force fields, damage resistance items, utility shielding (a good one I forgot to mention) and enemy accuracy reduction items. If you had all that, you'd be close to invincible. And you'd cycle through items so slowly that you could do without storage units.
Quote from: zxc on September 16, 2015, 01:00:02 AM
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 15, 2015, 10:17:37 PM
It's not punishing good play; it's going easier on those who are getting shot to pieces. We could go back to the way it was pre-Alpha 2, where everyone is treated to the high security levels you're encountering, but that makes less sense in the game world.
Yes, but the optimal play may then be to let yourself get shot to pieces to minimise threat and then later on play better.
True, psychological warfare. But you have less a chance of scoring well for it.
Quote from: zxc on September 16, 2015, 01:00:02 AM
I am a bit sceptical that the part replacement efficiency is even a stat that reflects good play. Rather it would reflect either access to many substitute items or a higher degree of adaptation to the items gifted by RNG. Is it simply the ratio of parts attached to parts destroyed? Does that efficiency stat get pumped up when you make a lot of swaps with items in your inventory?
No.
Quote from: zxc on September 16, 2015, 01:00:02 AM
Couldn't you possibly game this stat by equipping a lot of fragile items that get destroyed easily, even if they are functionally useless to you?
You can only game it if you know about it, which is why you weren't supposed to know about it :). It was an experiment in making the game easier for players who were getting overrun by assault carriers. It worked for everyone except you :P
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 16, 2015, 04:56:06 AM
It was an experiment in making the game easier for players who were getting overrun by assault carriers. It worked for everyone except you :P
EHEM
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/bnohJtY.png)
Edit: I like the idea of an adaptive enemy AI but it poses tricky problems regarding balance. Is everything linked to alert level / influence (is influence just a finely numbered alert level?)? If so, could it then be best to play as I was, but focus on purging threat around late factory and research? I'm going to focus a lot more on purging threat and not on finding exits in my next few runs.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 15, 2015, 07:25:49 PM
So basically the AI is working as intended, and has identified you as a ruthlessly efficient opponent that needs to be dealt with via strong response. That efficiency works in your favor in non-combat runs, but it's working against you in combat runs, because you're always in the enemy's face with a pristine build that's endlessly cycling parts. By comparison it thinks it's doing okay against Happylisk and Agroesch and thus they're reaching Access against less resistance.
Ha! My Access achievement is just due to megetting repeatedly blown to bits! Very interesting though. In my post about that run, I mentioned it was a non ideal build going into research. Out of desperation on Factory 4 I had lots of stupid utilities repeatedly equipped for coverage (like running 5 heat sinks at once, stupid crap like that) and I was equipping whatever I could find. I wonder if getting shredded repeatedly substituted for Alert purges :)
I had one real run last night. Though a decent score (11kish, died on -3) it was a very disappointing run overall. Not one launcher after -8. Not one. The inability to mulch groups really began to hurt. It confirms my belief that (for my playstyle at least) launchers are key. On the bright side, I did fab about 3 Hpc. Storage Units on -5. Fabbing them is pretty painless, so this will be something I experiment with regularly. Hacking Drone Bay Schematics (even with 3 hacking utilities) proved elusive. At least my death on -3 was great - naked but for a lance charging at a line of terminators.
I did a lot of thinking about weapons last night and I think my weapon load out is all wrong. I've been running 2 thermals (usually 2 cannons) and a kinetic gun. Thermal is nice because no one really resists it, but on the flip side no one is vulnerable to it (plus it eats energy that could be going to a forcefield). I think I'm going to emphasize kinetics going forward (since that's effective against grunts and programmers) and keep EMP weapons (ideally AOE) in the inventory for hunters.
I woke up an hour early and got some play in before work. So far, the switch to a kinetic emphasis has let me kill grunts and programmer's way faster. Although I have to a) watch my matter more now, and b) switch for hunters, the latter is not too annoying and the former is easily dealt with matter filters and one matter storage thingy in the inventory.
I left my current run at -5. It's got tons of armor, a forcefield, and a nice battery. Embarrassingly, I've never had all 3 at once. Man, what a difference all three makes. I didn't lose a single part on -6. Now I just have to worry about looking too shiny lest Main.C gets a bug up his ass 8)
Sadly, as I learn the game better degenerate play has emerged a bit. I'm sure it'll be different once I had more power sources, but right now I can't run my forcefield forever. What I do is carefully watch my power level during battles and turn off the field once it gets too low. However, I'm also turning off my treads at the start of every single battle to maximize how long my field is running for. Every single bit of damage absorbed by the field is damage lost to the aether as zxc said. It's tedious but effective.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 16, 2015, 07:12:00 AM
I left my current run at -5. It's got tons of armor, a forcefield, and a nice battery. Embarrassingly, I've never had all 3 at once. Man, what a difference all three makes. I didn't lose a single part on -6.
This is what I meant in the theory-crafting thread. All you need now is some resistance items to further reduce the damage taken from kinetic/EM etc.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 16, 2015, 07:12:00 AM
Sadly, as I learn the game better degenerate play has emerged a bit. I'm sure it'll be different once I had more power sources, but right now I can't run my forcefield forever. What I do is carefully watch my power level during battles and turn off the field once it gets too low. However, I'm also turning off my treads at the start of every single battle to maximize how long my field is running for. Every single bit of damage absorbed by the field is damage lost to the aether as zxc said. It's tedious but effective.
This is why I like kinetic weapons. They don't use much energy, so you can keep your force fields on even when you're low on energy. However, there is an advantage to thermal weapons: they contribute to the target's heat, which is considerably effective vs programmers because they still tend to melt themselves in the current version. Some other enemies also overheat but I can't remember which.
Turning off treads is not worth it if you are using kinetic weapons which have recoil. Don't forget that having active treads reduces recoil on each weapon by 10, which it a ton.
Honestly the worst enemies in Research I think are grunt/melee packs, which carriers often deploy as well. My current run is up to -6 I think, and it's doing well but I do lack force fields and my armour is running a bit low, and no drones yet.
Ack great point zxc. I swear, playing this game is like juggling 30 variables. Recoil messes with accuracy, right?
Also, I had another epiphany re: armor. There lots of stuff that gives resistance to thermal and emp and all that, but there's also armor that gives resistance to explosives. I never really got the point of that, since I've yet to encounter in the main branches an enemy that uses launchers against you. The answer is slap on the forehead obvious: it's to make the occasional point blank launcher shot a legitimate option.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 16, 2015, 08:04:53 AM
Ack great point zxc. I swear, playing this game is like juggling 30 variables. Recoil messes with accuracy, right?
Also, I had another epiphany re: armor. There lots of stuff that gives resistance to thermal and emp and all that, but there's also armor that gives resistance to explosives. I never really got the point of that, since I've yet to encounter in the main branches an enemy that uses launchers against you. The answer is slap on the forehead obvious: it's to make the occasional point blank launcher shot a legitimate option.
I had a similar epiphany recently. However, it's still a tiny bit of a marginal benefit I think. Not sure. Maybe it's worth carrying in inventory and swapping in before using the launcher, but the enemies can creep closer in that time.
Also it would help vs explosive traps.
Yes, 10 recoil on a weapon reduces accuracy of other weapons in the volley by 10. I think. So it's a rather large effect, and gets larger the more weapons in the volley.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 15, 2015, 07:25:49 PM
The answer to that has been spoilered a few times on the forum before. (zxc's stealth guide tells you how to escape if you'd like to see.) Right now there aren't enough clues on how to escape--only one indirect clue if you've spent some time in Storage before. There will be more info to help with that added later; before then you could consider just reading a spoiler.
Also consider revealing the exit location via hacking or terrain scanners.
I've been intentionally avoiding spoilers. I'm determined to figure it out myself.
I should try harder to keep sensors up. With all my runs they usually get blown off immediately so I don't even bother equipping them. I've been running around blind stacking armor and anything else with coverage. Hacking after materials is usually impossible. My games are very messy.
Quote from: Agroesch on September 16, 2015, 10:31:08 AM
My games are very messy.
Combat runs are super messy. My stealth runs by comparison are pristine clean, because by avoiding enemies you don't get so many parts destroyed, and it's more of a continually improving setup unless you screw up (which I do at times).
I'm currently about to enter -4 and I have about five deep network scanners which I've been swapping in before purging threat and locating exits. It's actually working quite well. The question is whether I can avoid system corruption enough the next few floors to continue hacking effectively.
I can't believe how often my storage units get critted.
What are drones good for? I saw a couple drone bays in my current game, but I wasn't sure what benefits they offered, so I left them so I could keep what I was already carrying.
Quote from: Goncyn on September 16, 2015, 12:01:17 PM
What are drones good for? I saw a couple drone bays in my current game, but I wasn't sure what benefits they offered, so I left them so I could keep what I was already carrying.
Scouting. After you equip them, they spawn 2 drones (1 per turn that they're on). Then you can send them off to look for exits until they die. You can get a lot of map data from those little guys.
I'm actually wondering if you can reload them after they're spent.
Okay, I'm at -4 about to enter -3. I'm near a fabricator so I'm making some HCP storage units before I go. Ending my session for now because it's 4:30am and I don't want to screw this up by being tired or impatient. I think there's a chance this run could be the one. Fairly poor defenses, no armour, and a force field I can't really make use of so it's staying in inventory until I can. However, I've been making major use of hacking this run, and I think it's working. For one, I can make some HCP storage units. Also, I've been purging threat a lot. I haven't had a terminal for a while though, so I imagine there will be some when I enter -3. Does threat get lowered when you enter a new floor at all?
I have some new ideas on combat runs I'll try to explain later. What I can say for now is that 1 tile wide corridors are
godlike.
Hope I don't fluff this game. Research has not failed to kill me, though. Wish me luck.
Screenshot:
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/hk3cUOt.png)
Yeah, my inventory really is 41 items.
Not sure on evolution upgrades as well. Weapons seem to be in a good spot so I guess 2 utility, 1 utility 1 power, or maybe even 1 propulsion for makeshift tread armour. However, weapons are pretty much better than treads as armour because they have more coverage (not sure on integrity).
Quote from: Shobalk on September 16, 2015, 12:10:29 PM
Quote from: Goncyn on September 16, 2015, 12:01:17 PM
What are drones good for? I saw a couple drone bays in my current game, but I wasn't sure what benefits they offered, so I left them so I could keep what I was already carrying.
Scouting. After you equip them, they spawn 2 drones (1 per turn that they're on). Then you can send them off to look for exits until they die. You can get a lot of map data from those little guys.
I'm actually wondering if you can reload them after they're spent.
Drones are the best. If you hold shift and right click on them, you can give them commands. The best is explore. Don't send two drones out at once, or they'll follow the same exploration path. Stagger their deployment. You share vision with them and can follow them around with alt-movement. So you hit " . " to make a turn pass, and scroll to see what they see. Don't deploy them in hallways where enemies might be patrolling, but rather go into a quiet room where you can pass a few turns without worry. Besides hunting for the exit, they might show you where enemies are and can show you caches worth taking. Once they find the exit, you can command them to follow and "return," which I believe will load them back into the bay (assuming they survive that long). They're really great.
zxc: good luck duder. I hope this is the one!
e: looking at your screenshot makes me wonder if I'm overvaluing cannons in my weapon loadouts.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 16, 2015, 12:43:58 PM
zxc: good luck duder. I hope this is the one!
e: looking at your screenshot makes me wonder if I'm overvaluing cannons in my weapon loadouts.
Thanks! I like cannons too, and I have several in my inventory. I think it's more that enemies don't use them so when I'm cycling through a lot of parts because lack of defenses I start relying on what they use.
Jesus, this game. I had a cogmind on -2 that I really thought was going to make it. I got lucky on -3 and found the exit quick. I entered -2 with everything just perfect. Armor, great guns, advanced force field with 3 spares, 32 inventory slots, and lots of hackware for terminals.
In a room 3 programmers burst in from the south, 2 from the north, and 2 terminators from the east. Basically all at once. There was nothing I could do against that. After half my shit was blown off I tried the old drop everything but for 4 items and run for it hail mary, but some swarmers had other plans.
You just can't treat Research like factory. Guessing where the exit is not an option. That's what I learned from this run. Didn't even see a terminal in -2 before getting clobbered so all my saved up hackware was of no use. I think the takeaway is that you really want to enter research with a drone bay, and should save any drone bays you find in factory for later use. Factory is easy enough that drone bays aren't needed. Save it for Research.
Also, sentries are not even remotely a problem in factory. They get appreciably harder in Research with all their armor. EMP recommended on those jerks. Is thermal more effective against heavily armored targets?
E: I realize one thing I was missing. A high tier launcher. It's possible that something capable of one or 2 shotting clusters of end game enemies could have saved me. I'm not sure what else a combat cogmind is supposed to do when 3 clusters of enemies are around you. Perhaps the answer is just don't get surrounded. Easier said than done.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 16, 2015, 07:12:00 AM
Hacking Drone Bay Schematics (even with 3 hacking utilities) proved elusive.
Was it? I still want to revisit that system and make sure schematics and fabrication are feasible when desired, but it's still too early to do that beyond the changes already made.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 16, 2015, 07:12:00 AM
However, I'm also turning off my treads at the start of every single battle to maximize how long my field is running for. Every single bit of damage absorbed by the field is damage lost to the aether as zxc said. It's tedious but effective.
Why are you turning off your treads? They don't have an energy upkeep--is there some other reasoning I'm not aware of?
Quote from: Happylisk on September 16, 2015, 08:04:53 AM
I never really got the point of that, since I've yet to encounter in the main branches an enemy that uses launchers against you. The answer is slap on the forehead obvious: it's to make the occasional point blank launcher shot a legitimate option.
Launchers are pretty deadly, though just like you use them mostly for crowd control, so do they ;)
But that's a pretty creative use for Reactive Armors! I originally left them out of the game because it's true you won't often face launcher-equipped hostiles; that type of armor was only added in Alpha 3, because as you've shown they have other uses as well.
Quote from: zxc on September 16, 2015, 11:45:04 AM
The question is whether I can avoid system corruption enough the next few floors to continue hacking effectively.
I can't believe how often my storage units get critted.
Preview for Next Version: System corruption's effect on hacking
significantly reduced. Also, while in my own experience storage units are rarely critted since the chances are quite low, I'm thinking it probably makes sense to make them immune to critical hits, just because of how annoying that is. Thoughts?
Quote from: zxc on September 16, 2015, 12:32:15 PM
Does threat get lowered when you enter a new floor at all?
Yep.
Quote from: zxc on September 16, 2015, 12:32:15 PM
Yeah, my inventory really is 41 items.
You know, I was thinking yesterday there has to be a point at which by taking up so many utility slots with storage you're really driving down your effectiveness overall.(Also, of course the chances of your storage getting critted goes way up when you carry a bunch of them. I generally only carry one;
maybe two if I've got no other special utility needs at the moment, and I rarely have problems with crits.)
Quote from: Happylisk on September 16, 2015, 08:39:39 PM
Perhaps the answer is just don't get surrounded. Easier said than done.
Getting surrounded is pretty much the worst thing that can happen to you, in my opinion. I try to route myself to make it impossible to be surrounded, at least based on my knowledge of the map. Depending on your loadout, engaging in a bit of terraforming is another useful option ;)
Just wrapped up my second game. Made it to -4 using a combat-heavy approach, and it was going fairly well, but after reading this forum some more mid-run, I'm pretty sure I made a big strategic error in not picking up any storage units or keeping as many spare parts as I could. Shortly after entering -4, I was attacked by two pairs of assassins in quick succession, followed by a pair of programmers. I had lost my force field and armor to the hunters, so I had to run from the programmers, and then two more hunters showed up, so I quickly lost the rest of my parts and then my core. Still a pretty encouraging run for having barely played the game before. Kind of want to try stealth, too, but I just like shooting things a lot.
Cogmind - Alpha 3c
Name: Goncyn
---[ CORE DESTROYED ]---
Performance
-------------
Evolutions (6) 3000
Robots Destroyed (119) 595
Value Destroyed (4905) 4905
Prototype IDs (6) 120
Alien Tech Identified (0) 0
Bonus (0) 0
TOTAL SCORE: 8620
Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity 0/1150
Matter 290/300
Energy 109/120
System Corruption 8%
Temperature Cool (0)
Location -4/Factory
Parts
-------
Power (3)
Micro Fission Core
Propulsion (2)
Anti-Grav System
Utility (9)
Weapon (5)
High-powered Shock Rifle
Inventory
-----------
Empty
Peak State
------------
Power
Micro Fission Core
Light Anti-Matter Reactor
Light Anti-Matter Reactor
Propulsion
Medium Treads
Compact Heavy Treads
Utility
Improved Heat Sink
Advanced Heat Sink
Recoil Nullifier
Improved Core Analyzer
Improved Light Armor Plating
Improved Integration Mediator
Experimental Reclamation Unit
Advanced Force Field
Weapon
Force Lance
KE Penetrator
KE Penetrator
Improved Arc Projector
Railgun
[Rating: 104]
Favorites
-----------
Power Light Angular Momentum Engine
Engine Light Angular Momentum Engine
Power Core Light Nuclear Core
Reactor Light Anti-Matter Reactor
Propulsion Medium Treads
Treads Medium Treads
Wheel Compact Wheel
Leg Aluminum Leg
Hover Unit Anti-Grav System
Flight Unit Flight Unit
Utility Improved Heat Sink
Device Improved Heat Sink
Storage Medium Storage Unit
Processor Improved Targeting Computer
Protection Improved Light Armor Plating
Weapon Flak Gun
Energy Gun Shock Rifle
Energy Cannon Proton Cannon
Ballistic Gun Flak Gun
Ballistic Cannon Assault Cannon
Launcher Grenade Launcher
Special Weapon Mining Laser
Impact Weapon Mace
Stats
-------
Classes Destroyed 15
Worker 7
Builder 2
Tunneler 1
Hauler 1
Recycler 11
Mechanic 1
Operator 1
Watcher 6
Swarmer 16
Grunt 25
Brawler 3
Duelist 1
Sentry 22
Hunter 8
Programmer 14
NPCs Destroyed 0
Best Kill Streak 6
Combat Bots Only 6
Matter Collected 4111
Salvage Created 6467
Parts Attached 210
Power 27
Propulsion 37
Utility 63
Weapon 83
Parts Lost 110
Power 12
Propulsion 14
Utility 31
Weapon 53
Average Slot Usage (%) 90
Naked Turns 2
Spaces Moved 3991
Fastest Speed (%) 333
Slowest Speed (%) 20
Overloaded Moves 0
Propulsion Burnouts 0
Targets Rammed 0
Cave-ins Triggered 0
Teleports 0
Heaviest Build 77
Greatest Overweight (x) 15
Average Overweight (x) 0
Largest Inventory 8
Most Items Carried 4
Average Items Carried 3
Core Damage Taken 2013
Volleys Fired 365
Largest 5
Hottest 359
Shots Fired 1210
Gun 1134
Cannon 72
Launcher 3
Special 1
Kinetic 592
Thermal 449
Explosive 0
Electromagnetic 169
Shots Hit Robots 780
Core Hits 349
Overload Shots 0
Energy Bleed 0
Heat Surge 0
Short Circuit 0
Meltdown 0
Melee Attacks 21
Impact 21
Slashing 0
Piercing 0
Damage Inflicted 13849
Projectiles 13055
Explosions 530
Melee 264
Ramming 0
Highest Temperature 343
Average Temperature 77
Shutdowns 1
Energy Bleed 2
Interference 3
Matter Decay 0
Short Circuit 0
Damage (minor) 0
Damage (major) 0
Damage (core) 0
Highest Corruption 8
Message Errors 20
Parts Rejected 1
Data loss (map) 19
Data loss (database) 8
Misfires 3
Misdirections 6
Targeting Errors 25
Weapon Failures 2
Haulers Intercepted 1
Robots Corrupted 0
Robots Melted 7
Tactical Retreats 11
Communications Jammed 0
Parts Field Recycled 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Merge Repaired 0
Drone Launches 0
Drone Recoveries 0
Derelicts Assembled 0
Traps Triggered 0
Indirectly 0
Trap Hack Attempts 0
Triggered 0
Disarmed 0
Reprogrammed 0
Reused 0
Machine Familiarity 15
Terminals 12
Fabricators 1
Repair Stations 2
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Machines Hacked 15
Terminals 12
Fabricators 1
Repair Stations 2
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Total Hacks 31
Successful 14
Failed 16
Catastrophic 1
Database Lockouts 0
Manual 5
Terminals 26
Fabricators 2
Repair Stations 3
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Terminal Hacks 10
Record 5
Part Schematic 1
Robot Schematic 0
Robot Analysis 0
Prototype ID Bank 0
Open Door 1
Level Access Points 0
Branch Access Points 0
Emergency Access Points 0
Machine Index 0
Terminal Index 0
Fabricator Index 0
Repair Station Index 0
Recycling Unit Index 0
Scanalyzer Index 0
Alert Level 0
Unreport Threat 1
Locate Traps 1
Disarm Traps 0
Reprogram Traps 0
Dispatch Records 0
Maintenance Status 0
Security Status 0
Surveillance Status 0
Patrol Status 0
Transport Status 0
Investigation Status 0
Extermination Status 0
Reinforcement Status 0
Assault Status 0
Recall Investigation 0
Recall Extermination 0
Recall Reinforcements 0
Recall Assault 0
Hauler Manifests 0
Registered Components 0
Registered Prototypes 0
Zone Layout 0
Sector Layout 0
Machine Controls 1
Hacking Detections 10
Full Trace Events 4
Feedback Events 1
Feedback Corruption 1
Feedback Part Disabled 0
Feedback Blocked 0
Robot Schematics Acquired 0
Robots Built 0
Total Robot Build Rating 0
Robot Fabrication Matter 0
Robot Fabrication Time 0
Part Schematics Acquired 1
Parts Built 0
Total Part Build Rating 0
Part Fabrication Matter 0
Part Fabrication Time 0
Parts Repaired 1
Part Repair Time 30
Parts Recycled 0
Recycled Matter 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Scanalyzed 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Damaged 0
Robot Analysis Total 0
Robots Rewired 0
Robots Hacked 0
Non-combat 0
Combat 0
Parse 0
Link 0
Rebooted 0
Overloaded 0
Assimilated 0
Manual 0
Secondary 0
Robot Hack Failures 0
Allies Hacked 0
Hacks Repelled 0
Total Allies 9
Largest Group 0
Highest-Rated Group 0
Highest-Rated Ally 0
Total Orders 0
STAY 0
GOTO 0
ROAM 0
FOLLOW 0
GUARD 0
AID 0
BUILD 0
TUNNEL 0
DROP 0
PICKUP 0
COLLECT 0
EXPLORE 0
RETURN 0
Terraforming Orders 0
Walls Built 0
Walls Tunneled 0
Ally Attacks 0
Total Damage 0
Kills 0
Allies Corrupted 0
Allies Melted 0
Peak Influence 441
Average Influence 138
Maximum Alert Level 2
Low Security (%) 63
Level 1 35
Level 2 1
Level 3 0
Level 4 0
Level 5 0
Squads Dispatched 21
Investigation 4
Extermination 11
Reinforcement 4
Assault 2
Exploration Rate (%) 22
Regions Visited 10
Turns Passed 8133
Depth 11 69
Depth 10 104
Depth 9 637
Depth 8 520
Depth 7 2391
Depth 6 3043
Depth 5 512
Depth 4 857
Scrapyard 69
Materials 1000
Factory 5351
Mines 261
Storage 1452
Prototype IDs
---------------
Advanced Beam Rifle
Improved Spread Laser
Advanced Plasma Rifle
Precision Assault Rifle
Anti-matter Cannon
Experimental Reclamation Unit
Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None
Game
------
Seed: 1442162506
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 223 min
Sessions: 14
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 2
ASCII: 1
Keyboard: 1
Font: 18/Terminus
Map View: 66x50
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Quote from: Kyzrati on September 16, 2015, 08:50:21 PM
Getting surrounded is pretty much the worst thing that can happen to you, in my opinion. I try to route myself to make it impossible to be surrounded, at least based on my knowledge of the map. Depending on your loadout, engaging in a bit of terraforming is another useful option ;)
I did terraforming in Access with a launcher (which proved to be a terrible idea in terms of matter loss). Thank you for the tip. At this point I have a generally decent idea where I am on the map and where the location of the stairs is. I'm going to try stashing a plasma cutter next run to burrow through rooms in research to try to avoid situations where I have to trudge down those big ass open hallways.
As for the drone bay stuff, I don't think I had enough deep network scanners, which I'm sure are more important for indirect hacks than the other hackware I had. I don't think it's a problem if you need to work to hack higher tier schematics. You should have to work to have reliable access to things like drone bays and improved force fields.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 16, 2015, 08:50:21 PM
Also, while in my own experience storage units are rarely critted since the chances are quite low, I'm thinking it probably makes sense to make them immune to critical hits, just because of how annoying that is. Thoughts?
I'd personally love it. It would be a player buff, but I'd rather you create difficulty via other methods than the extremely annoying and random crit-losing storage units with key items spilling out everywhere. Also, managing a 41 item inventory is not easy. I'm also still waiting for the item swap mode :)
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 16, 2015, 08:50:21 PM
You know, I was thinking yesterday there has to be a point at which by taking up so many utility slots with storage you're really driving down your effectiveness overall.
I entirely agree, however I also think that even with much lower effectiveness you should still be much better off than without those 40 odd backup items. I keep running out of items to use in my utility slots. I just fill them up with whatever I find, like target analysers and heat sinks, because anything is better than nothing. So, in that situation, having 40 backup items is far superior because I wouldn't even be able to make use of all the other utility slots. If we look back at all those screenshots I took of the turning points in my combat runs (check the theory-crafting OP) it is clear that the primary reason I die is due to running out of items, especially weapons. I also outline some thoughts in that post about storage.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 16, 2015, 08:50:21 PM
Quote from: Happylisk on September 16, 2015, 08:39:39 PM
Perhaps the answer is just don't get surrounded. Easier said than done.
Getting surrounded is pretty much the worst thing that can happen to you, in my opinion. I try to route myself to make it impossible to be surrounded, at least based on my knowledge of the map. Depending on your loadout, engaging in a bit of terraforming is another useful option ;)
When programmers are en route, I've started waiting in a good spot rather than continuing to explore, just to take care of them safely and not get surrounded. One of the things I've started to learn recently.
Holy moly, -3 was tough. I was on the verge of collapse at times. But I've made it to -2, and I have a terminal right in front of me.
My biggest immediate problem is a lack of matter. I want to switch to my hacking items but that will cost a lot of matter... Not sure what to do. Probably have heaps of alert level due to the previous floor.
Screenshot
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/UEz574y.png)
Edit:
Hacking pays off! Can hardly believe it.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/VWiN7ao.png)
Edit2:
Oh my goodness. The stairs were so close.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/qBBNd4h.png)
First time reaching -1 with a combat build! If I screw this up it will be unforgivable.
Oh I forgot I still have drones! I should use them early on.
Edit3:
Behemoth payday.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/l4ZJNGd.png)
My only concern is my weak storage units. This is looking amazing right now. The tip to fight behemoths with EM weapons was an excellent one. Some programmers are on their way. I have a nearby terminal I'm going to try hacking the exit with once I kill the programmers. This is
surely going to be the run.
Edit4:
This is intense. Currently playing really short sessions because I can't stand the thought of screwing up being this close to victory. Programmers keep getting called but haven't come across me yet. Like 4x now.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/v3KTGeO.png)
Looking like a really hectic run, zxc! Damn you're carrying a lot of stuff... And it's not too surprising you managed to hack the exit earlier--that's a lot of Deep Network Scanners! :o
Good luck making it to the surface, and thanks for sharing.
Quote from: zxc on September 16, 2015, 09:02:38 PM
When programmers are en route, I've started waiting in a good spot rather than continuing to explore, just to take care of them safely and not get surrounded. One of the things I've started to learn recently.
Absolutely. I don't always wait, since it can sometimes take them a while to reach your position, but with a combat build I would say it's best to change your movement tactics to make sure you can take cover and get in a defensive position as quickly as possible. (Even better to have sensors, honestly, even just a single-slot array, because when you see about two question marks coming straight towards your position non-stop you
know what they are ;))
Latest batch of stats from Days 1~7. Six days left!
(https://i.imgur.com/PJNtjJo.png)
The Access floor just got rekt.
(https://i.imgur.com/gElRcAK.png)
I found the exit before long and my items and core integrity were so good that I decided to just go on a rampage around the map. Nothing could stop me!
I was still in pristine condition, but I escaped after a while of clearing a huge chunk of the floor because managing matter was annoying and I was getting impatient by that point to win. It was fun just destroying everything without any fear for once, and with a fully set-up build. By that point I was just leaving amazing items on the floor because I had so many, and I could pick them up at any time because I was literally clearing the floor of all robots and machines, so eventually no recyclers were around to take items. Chaos prevails over the forces of order.
(https://i.imgur.com/Klkw3fx.png)
Access was far easier than Research and actually probably Factory too.
Loot for days
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/hiV9NKl.png)
Also I one-shot a behemoth.
The morgue file:
Spoiler
Cogmind - Alpha 3c
Name: zzxc
---[ ESCAPED! ]---
Performance
-------------
Evolutions (9) 4500
Robots Destroyed (553) 2765
Value Destroyed (20848) 20848
Prototype IDs (33) 660
Alien Tech Identified (0) 0
Bonus (2000) 2000
TOTAL SCORE: 30773
Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity 1399/1600
Matter 300/300
Energy 793/800
System Corruption 0%
Temperature Cool (4)
Location Surface
Parts
-------
Power (3)
Quantum Reactor
Quantum Reactor
Quantum Reactor
Propulsion (2)
Improved Heavy Treads
Utility (15)
Advanced Targeting Computer
Advanced Force Field
Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Large Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
Large Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
Advanced Target Analyzer
Advanced Targeting Computer
Advanced Focal Shield
Improved System Restoration Module
Long-range Tractor Beam
Advanced Cooling System
Advanced Targeting Computer
Weapon (5)
Ragnarok Missile Launcher
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
Inventory
-----------
Long-range Tractor Beam
Improved Particle Charger
Advanced Target Analyzer
Advanced Targeting Computer
Advanced Powered Armor
Improved Core Shielding
EM Shield
Insulated Heavy Armor
Improved Focal Shield
Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Matter Compressor
Experimental Energy Well
Large Storage Unit
Advanced Cooling System
Advanced Heat Sink
Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
Linear Accelerator
Linear Accelerator
Linear Accelerator
Linear Accelerator
Multirail
Multirail
Compact HERF Cannon
Heavy Disruptor Cannon
Quantum Reactor
Quantum Reactor
Peak State
------------
Power
Light Quantum Reactor
Light Quantum Reactor
Particle Reactor
Propulsion
Improved Heavy Treads
Utility
Advanced Powered Armor
Advanced Target Analyzer
Advanced Heat Sink
High-capacity Storage Unit
Large Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
Experimental Energy Well
Advanced Force Field
Large Storage Unit
EM Shield
Advanced Cooling System
Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Long-range Tractor Beam
Weapon
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
[Rating: 169]
Favorites
-----------
Power Particle Reactor
Engine F-Cell Engine
Power Core Micro Fission Core
Reactor Particle Reactor
Propulsion Light Treads
Treads Light Treads
Leg Myomer Leg
Hover Unit Improved Anti-Grav System
Utility High-capacity Storage Unit
Device Advanced Heat Sink
Storage High-capacity Storage Unit
Processor Advanced Target Analyzer
Hackware Deep Network Scanner
Protection Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Weapon Multirail
Energy Gun Tesla Rifle
Energy Cannon Compact HERF Cannon
Ballistic Gun Multirail
Ballistic Cannon Fusion Cannon
Launcher Ragnarok Missile Launcher
Stats
-------
Classes Destroyed 15
Worker 78
Builder 43
Tunneler 4
Hauler 28
Recycler 56
Operator 4
Watcher 24
Swarmer 48
Grunt 129
Brawler 7
Duelist 3
Sentry 41
Hunter 43
Programmer 43
Behemoth 2
NPCs Destroyed 0
Best Kill Streak 13
Combat Bots Only 14
Matter Collected 23503
Salvage Created 29657
Parts Attached 831
Power 70
Propulsion 55
Utility 484
Weapon 222
Parts Lost 166
Power 17
Propulsion 14
Utility 76
Weapon 59
Average Slot Usage (%) 94
Naked Turns 1
Spaces Moved 8816
Fastest Speed (%) 200
Slowest Speed (%) 3
Overloaded Moves 0
Propulsion Burnouts 0
Targets Rammed 15
Cave-ins Triggered 0
Teleports 0
Heaviest Build 207
Greatest Overweight (x) 61
Average Overweight (x) 2
Largest Inventory 50
Most Items Carried 50
Average Items Carried 32
Core Damage Taken 2754
Volleys Fired 1255
Largest 5
Hottest 436
Shots Fired 4131
Gun 3375
Cannon 692
Launcher 64
Special 0
Kinetic 2715
Thermal 780
Explosive 53
Electromagnetic 583
Shots Hit Robots 2451
Core Hits 1233
Overload Shots 0
Energy Bleed 0
Heat Surge 0
Short Circuit 0
Meltdown 0
Melee Attacks 0
Impact 0
Slashing 0
Piercing 0
Damage Inflicted 61148
Projectiles 53750
Explosions 7350
Melee 0
Ramming 48
Highest Temperature 424
Average Temperature 57
Shutdowns 0
Energy Bleed 0
Interference 0
Matter Decay 1
Short Circuit 0
Damage (minor) 0
Damage (major) 0
Damage (core) 0
Highest Corruption 17
Message Errors 128
Parts Rejected 42
Data loss (map) 150
Data loss (database) 99
Misfires 22
Misdirections 22
Targeting Errors 188
Weapon Failures 46
Haulers Intercepted 28
Robots Corrupted 11
Robots Melted 15
Tactical Retreats 49
Communications Jammed 0
Parts Field Recycled 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Merge Repaired 0
Drone Launches 6
Drone Recoveries 0
Derelicts Assembled 0
Traps Triggered 0
Indirectly 0
Trap Hack Attempts 0
Triggered 0
Disarmed 0
Reprogrammed 0
Reused 0
Machine Familiarity 41
Terminals 32
Fabricators 5
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 1
Scanalyzers 3
Machines Hacked 35
Terminals 28
Fabricators 3
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 1
Scanalyzers 3
Total Hacks 199
Successful 68
Failed 131
Catastrophic 41
Database Lockouts 0
Manual 123
Terminals 160
Fabricators 23
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 2
Scanalyzers 14
Terminal Hacks 42
Record 9
Part Schematic 1
Robot Schematic 0
Robot Analysis 0
Prototype ID Bank 2
Open Door 0
Level Access Points 3
Branch Access Points 0
Emergency Access Points 2
Machine Index 0
Terminal Index 0
Fabricator Index 1
Repair Station Index 0
Recycling Unit Index 0
Scanalyzer Index 0
Alert Level 10
Unreport Threat 10
Locate Traps 0
Disarm Traps 0
Reprogram Traps 0
Dispatch Records 0
Maintenance Status 0
Security Status 0
Surveillance Status 0
Patrol Status 0
Transport Status 0
Investigation Status 0
Extermination Status 0
Reinforcement Status 0
Assault Status 0
Recall Investigation 0
Recall Extermination 0
Recall Reinforcements 0
Recall Assault 0
Hauler Manifests 0
Registered Components 2
Registered Prototypes 0
Zone Layout 2
Sector Layout 0
Machine Controls 0
Hacking Detections 93
Full Trace Events 23
Feedback Events 3
Feedback Corruption 3
Feedback Part Disabled 0
Feedback Blocked 0
Robot Schematics Acquired 0
Robots Built 0
Total Robot Build Rating 0
Robot Fabrication Matter 0
Robot Fabrication Time 0
Part Schematics Acquired 6
Parts Built 8
Total Part Build Rating 8
Part Fabrication Matter 160
Part Fabrication Time 480
Parts Repaired 0
Part Repair Time 0
Parts Recycled 0
Recycled Matter 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Scanalyzed 5
Part Schematics Acquired 5
Parts Damaged 0
Robot Analysis Total 0
Robots Rewired 0
Robots Hacked 0
Non-combat 0
Combat 0
Parse 0
Link 0
Rebooted 0
Overloaded 0
Assimilated 0
Manual 0
Secondary 0
Robot Hack Failures 0
Allies Hacked 0
Hacks Repelled 0
Total Allies 18
Largest Group 2
Highest-Rated Group 10
Highest-Rated Ally 5
Total Orders 6
STAY 0
GOTO 0
ROAM 6
FOLLOW 0
GUARD 0
AID 0
BUILD 0
TUNNEL 0
DROP 0
PICKUP 0
COLLECT 0
EXPLORE 0
RETURN 0
Terraforming Orders 0
Walls Built 0
Walls Tunneled 0
Ally Attacks 0
Total Damage 0
Kills 0
Allies Corrupted 0
Allies Melted 0
Peak Influence 1152
Average Influence 272
Maximum Alert Level 3
Low Security (%) 46
Level 1 25
Level 2 25
Level 3 2
Level 4 0
Level 5 0
Squads Dispatched 70
Investigation 25
Extermination 23
Reinforcement 19
Assault 3
Exploration Rate (%) 22
Regions Visited 13
Turns Passed 28485
Depth 11 156
Depth 10 950
Depth 9 2384
Depth 8 1154
Depth 7 2575
Depth 6 1722
Depth 5 2518
Depth 4 2082
Depth 3 4193
Depth 2 854
Depth 1 9897
Scrapyard 156
Materials 4354
Factory 7264
Research 5047
Access 9897
Mines 134
Storage 1633
Prototype IDs
---------------
F-Cell Engine
Enhanced Fission Core
Graviton Reactor
Improved Medium Laser
Heavy Particle Gun
Advanced Beam Rifle
Advanced Plasma Rifle
Improved EM Shotgun
Improved Lightning Gun
Cooled Particle Cannon
Long-range Phase Cannon
Improved Assault Rifle
Tri-rail Accelerator
Mini Smartbomb Launcher
Ragnarok Missile Launcher
Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
Experimental Energy Well
Centrium Medium Armor Plating
Precision Energy Filter
Advanced Overload Amplifier
Advanced Overload Regulator
Improved Fusion Compressor
Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None
Game
------
Seed: 1442397454
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 416 min
Sessions: 24
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 24
ASCII: 1
Keyboard: 0
Font: 18/Terminus
Map View: 76x50
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I killed four behemoths on -1 alone, so that display of two killed is definitely bugged. It should be about six or so. Edit: I took out most of them with corruption from EM weapons, which explains why they don't show up on the log. So everything is working as intended.
Congrats zxc! Very, very impressive. What a build. You really beasted them. Also, I totally know what you mean about short sessions. Around -4 I begin playing in spurts of 10 min. I have to take breaks just to make sure I don't get sloppy since so much concentration is required.
I also found Access to be a bit less hellish than research. I think that's just cause the gear lying around there is so top notch. Glad switching to emp for behemoths paid off. That's probably why your behemoth kill count isn't 6 - robots corrupted to death don't count as your kill.
I'm going to start using scanalyzers a lot more. I never did before cause I wasn't fabricating. Now, I'm going to make sure I scan my forcefields, targeting computers, and best battery at the very least. Def. going to scan bay drone bays found in factory too. I'm sure this will be a far easier way to get schematics than indirect hacks (and it'll free up terminals for other hacks). Also, it'll make hacking suites more useful since scanning and fabbing utilizes direct hacks. My game got a lot better once I understand how to use terminals properly. I suspect it'll get even better once I starting putting scanalyzers to proper use.
Spoily question for K:
Spoiler
Is it possible to indirect hack a schematic for a drone, be it the one released from the drone bay or the one released by hunters (I believe the ones from hunters are called Fly)? If so, would you mind giving me the rating number and robot name of those little beasties? My thinking is, if the rating of a drone is less than the rating of a drone bay, it would be easier to indirect hack the drone schematic. That in turn would basically turn fabricators into stationary drone bays. I believe the drone's name is N-XX Fly, but I have no idea what the numbers are or whether it's even worthwhile trying to fab them separate from a bay).
I am half tempted to experiment with combat allies, but I don't like the adding of making the security level go up more than it needs to and have no desire to see programmers turn my buddies against me.
Thanks, yeah they got smashed.
Access was actually unusually easy. A bunch of times I was at the edges of the map and programmers never reached me. I was waiting by a terminal, making an unsuccessful attempt at locating the exit and waiting out the trace for at least a thousand turns. I never got the hack working (it was probably like 1% chance) so I gave up and left. I think Access might be bugged because even when I was running around annihilating the entire floor, more enemies would not come after me; Access was the calmest floor in the entire game.
EM is really good against behemoths. One or two hits and they die from system corruption. Maybe they're actually vulnerable to it? We don't have scanalyser data for behemoths on the wiki.
I scanned a bunch of low level stuff with the scanalyser, but I only fabricated one item: HCP storage units, which I think might be optimal. I couldn't fabricate enough of them. Later on you find plenty of other stuff, and behemoths are walking piles of loot (seriously, next time I'm going to actively seek out behemoths because the risk/reward is so much better than with other enemies). I actually carried a regular hacking suite just for fabricating, however I am pretty sure you can utilise indirect hacks for them too. I'm going to expand on a lot of these thoughts in the combat run theory-craft thread at some point, but I think deep network scanners should be stacked with a combat run (and in fact, all runs, ideally). I think a big reason why I succeeded in this run was because I was purging threat all through to Research.
I think that's right. I think Purge threat is the primary indirect hack to use in Factory and research (further underscoring that schematics should be coming from scanalyzers, not indirect hacking). I can see doing an index hack to find terminals or fabs, especially if you're running low on Hcp storage units, but otherwise purge all day long. I also don't think Access(main) commands are necessary for factory once you have a handle on the mid-game.
Out of curiosity, were you using EMP launchers against Behemoths, of HERF cannons? I assume it wasn't emp rifles.
I really wish Enumerate(Security) was level wide as opposed to local, since seeing which corners had sentries would give you a decent idea where the exit is.
Spoiler
It's possible that enumerate security is more useful in Access, since spotting the double behemoths = exit. I'm not sure if that command lists behemoths though, or if it just lists sentries. Further testing needed.
I discovered something that's meta-gaming but it's made my factory runs easier:
Spoiler
Every time I start a factory level, I hold down alt and scroll around with the arrows. This moves the map around. By seeing how far or how little I can scroll, I can instantly tell which corner of the map I'm in. I then hug the perimeter of the map and travel to the next corner. It's dramatically speeded up finding exits. It also helps that I generally have a better feel for how the maps look.
Quote from: zxc on September 17, 2015, 02:48:15 AM
The Access floor just got rekt.
(https://i.imgur.com/gElRcAK.png)
I found the exit before long and my items and core integrity were so good that I decided to just go on a rampage around the map. Nothing could stop me!
I was still in pristine condition, but I escaped after a while of clearing a huge chunk of the floor because managing matter was annoying and I was getting impatient by that point to win. It was fun just destroying everything without any fear for once, and with a fully set-up build. By that point I was just leaving amazing items on the floor because I had so many, and I could pick them up at any time because I was literally clearing the floor of all robots and machines, so eventually no recyclers were around to take items. Chaos prevails over the forces of order.
(https://i.imgur.com/Klkw3fx.png)
Access was far easier than Research and actually probably Factory too.
Loot for days
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/hiV9NKl.png)
Also I one-shot a behemoth.
The morgue file:
Spoiler
Cogmind - Alpha 3c
Name: zzxc
---[ ESCAPED! ]---
Performance
-------------
Evolutions (9) 4500
Robots Destroyed (553) 2765
Value Destroyed (20848) 20848
Prototype IDs (33) 660
Alien Tech Identified (0) 0
Bonus (2000) 2000
TOTAL SCORE: 30773
Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity 1399/1600
Matter 300/300
Energy 793/800
System Corruption 0%
Temperature Cool (4)
Location Surface
Parts
-------
Power (3)
Quantum Reactor
Quantum Reactor
Quantum Reactor
Propulsion (2)
Improved Heavy Treads
Utility (15)
Advanced Targeting Computer
Advanced Force Field
Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Large Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
Large Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
Advanced Target Analyzer
Advanced Targeting Computer
Advanced Focal Shield
Improved System Restoration Module
Long-range Tractor Beam
Advanced Cooling System
Advanced Targeting Computer
Weapon (5)
Ragnarok Missile Launcher
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
Inventory
-----------
Long-range Tractor Beam
Improved Particle Charger
Advanced Target Analyzer
Advanced Targeting Computer
Advanced Powered Armor
Improved Core Shielding
EM Shield
Insulated Heavy Armor
Improved Focal Shield
Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Matter Compressor
Experimental Energy Well
Large Storage Unit
Advanced Cooling System
Advanced Heat Sink
Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
Linear Accelerator
Linear Accelerator
Linear Accelerator
Linear Accelerator
Multirail
Multirail
Compact HERF Cannon
Heavy Disruptor Cannon
Quantum Reactor
Quantum Reactor
Peak State
------------
Power
Light Quantum Reactor
Light Quantum Reactor
Particle Reactor
Propulsion
Improved Heavy Treads
Utility
Advanced Powered Armor
Advanced Target Analyzer
Advanced Heat Sink
High-capacity Storage Unit
Large Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
Experimental Energy Well
Advanced Force Field
Large Storage Unit
EM Shield
Advanced Cooling System
Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Long-range Tractor Beam
Weapon
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
[Rating: 169]
Favorites
-----------
Power Particle Reactor
Engine F-Cell Engine
Power Core Micro Fission Core
Reactor Particle Reactor
Propulsion Light Treads
Treads Light Treads
Leg Myomer Leg
Hover Unit Improved Anti-Grav System
Utility High-capacity Storage Unit
Device Advanced Heat Sink
Storage High-capacity Storage Unit
Processor Advanced Target Analyzer
Hackware Deep Network Scanner
Protection Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Weapon Multirail
Energy Gun Tesla Rifle
Energy Cannon Compact HERF Cannon
Ballistic Gun Multirail
Ballistic Cannon Fusion Cannon
Launcher Ragnarok Missile Launcher
Stats
-------
Classes Destroyed 15
Worker 78
Builder 43
Tunneler 4
Hauler 28
Recycler 56
Operator 4
Watcher 24
Swarmer 48
Grunt 129
Brawler 7
Duelist 3
Sentry 41
Hunter 43
Programmer 43
Behemoth 2
NPCs Destroyed 0
Best Kill Streak 13
Combat Bots Only 14
Matter Collected 23503
Salvage Created 29657
Parts Attached 831
Power 70
Propulsion 55
Utility 484
Weapon 222
Parts Lost 166
Power 17
Propulsion 14
Utility 76
Weapon 59
Average Slot Usage (%) 94
Naked Turns 1
Spaces Moved 8816
Fastest Speed (%) 200
Slowest Speed (%) 3
Overloaded Moves 0
Propulsion Burnouts 0
Targets Rammed 15
Cave-ins Triggered 0
Teleports 0
Heaviest Build 207
Greatest Overweight (x) 61
Average Overweight (x) 2
Largest Inventory 50
Most Items Carried 50
Average Items Carried 32
Core Damage Taken 2754
Volleys Fired 1255
Largest 5
Hottest 436
Shots Fired 4131
Gun 3375
Cannon 692
Launcher 64
Special 0
Kinetic 2715
Thermal 780
Explosive 53
Electromagnetic 583
Shots Hit Robots 2451
Core Hits 1233
Overload Shots 0
Energy Bleed 0
Heat Surge 0
Short Circuit 0
Meltdown 0
Melee Attacks 0
Impact 0
Slashing 0
Piercing 0
Damage Inflicted 61148
Projectiles 53750
Explosions 7350
Melee 0
Ramming 48
Highest Temperature 424
Average Temperature 57
Shutdowns 0
Energy Bleed 0
Interference 0
Matter Decay 1
Short Circuit 0
Damage (minor) 0
Damage (major) 0
Damage (core) 0
Highest Corruption 17
Message Errors 128
Parts Rejected 42
Data loss (map) 150
Data loss (database) 99
Misfires 22
Misdirections 22
Targeting Errors 188
Weapon Failures 46
Haulers Intercepted 28
Robots Corrupted 11
Robots Melted 15
Tactical Retreats 49
Communications Jammed 0
Parts Field Recycled 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Merge Repaired 0
Drone Launches 6
Drone Recoveries 0
Derelicts Assembled 0
Traps Triggered 0
Indirectly 0
Trap Hack Attempts 0
Triggered 0
Disarmed 0
Reprogrammed 0
Reused 0
Machine Familiarity 41
Terminals 32
Fabricators 5
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 1
Scanalyzers 3
Machines Hacked 35
Terminals 28
Fabricators 3
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 1
Scanalyzers 3
Total Hacks 199
Successful 68
Failed 131
Catastrophic 41
Database Lockouts 0
Manual 123
Terminals 160
Fabricators 23
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 2
Scanalyzers 14
Terminal Hacks 42
Record 9
Part Schematic 1
Robot Schematic 0
Robot Analysis 0
Prototype ID Bank 2
Open Door 0
Level Access Points 3
Branch Access Points 0
Emergency Access Points 2
Machine Index 0
Terminal Index 0
Fabricator Index 1
Repair Station Index 0
Recycling Unit Index 0
Scanalyzer Index 0
Alert Level 10
Unreport Threat 10
Locate Traps 0
Disarm Traps 0
Reprogram Traps 0
Dispatch Records 0
Maintenance Status 0
Security Status 0
Surveillance Status 0
Patrol Status 0
Transport Status 0
Investigation Status 0
Extermination Status 0
Reinforcement Status 0
Assault Status 0
Recall Investigation 0
Recall Extermination 0
Recall Reinforcements 0
Recall Assault 0
Hauler Manifests 0
Registered Components 2
Registered Prototypes 0
Zone Layout 2
Sector Layout 0
Machine Controls 0
Hacking Detections 93
Full Trace Events 23
Feedback Events 3
Feedback Corruption 3
Feedback Part Disabled 0
Feedback Blocked 0
Robot Schematics Acquired 0
Robots Built 0
Total Robot Build Rating 0
Robot Fabrication Matter 0
Robot Fabrication Time 0
Part Schematics Acquired 6
Parts Built 8
Total Part Build Rating 8
Part Fabrication Matter 160
Part Fabrication Time 480
Parts Repaired 0
Part Repair Time 0
Parts Recycled 0
Recycled Matter 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Scanalyzed 5
Part Schematics Acquired 5
Parts Damaged 0
Robot Analysis Total 0
Robots Rewired 0
Robots Hacked 0
Non-combat 0
Combat 0
Parse 0
Link 0
Rebooted 0
Overloaded 0
Assimilated 0
Manual 0
Secondary 0
Robot Hack Failures 0
Allies Hacked 0
Hacks Repelled 0
Total Allies 18
Largest Group 2
Highest-Rated Group 10
Highest-Rated Ally 5
Total Orders 6
STAY 0
GOTO 0
ROAM 6
FOLLOW 0
GUARD 0
AID 0
BUILD 0
TUNNEL 0
DROP 0
PICKUP 0
COLLECT 0
EXPLORE 0
RETURN 0
Terraforming Orders 0
Walls Built 0
Walls Tunneled 0
Ally Attacks 0
Total Damage 0
Kills 0
Allies Corrupted 0
Allies Melted 0
Peak Influence 1152
Average Influence 272
Maximum Alert Level 3
Low Security (%) 46
Level 1 25
Level 2 25
Level 3 2
Level 4 0
Level 5 0
Squads Dispatched 70
Investigation 25
Extermination 23
Reinforcement 19
Assault 3
Exploration Rate (%) 22
Regions Visited 13
Turns Passed 28485
Depth 11 156
Depth 10 950
Depth 9 2384
Depth 8 1154
Depth 7 2575
Depth 6 1722
Depth 5 2518
Depth 4 2082
Depth 3 4193
Depth 2 854
Depth 1 9897
Scrapyard 156
Materials 4354
Factory 7264
Research 5047
Access 9897
Mines 134
Storage 1633
Prototype IDs
---------------
F-Cell Engine
Enhanced Fission Core
Graviton Reactor
Improved Medium Laser
Heavy Particle Gun
Advanced Beam Rifle
Advanced Plasma Rifle
Improved EM Shotgun
Improved Lightning Gun
Cooled Particle Cannon
Long-range Phase Cannon
Improved Assault Rifle
Tri-rail Accelerator
Mini Smartbomb Launcher
Ragnarok Missile Launcher
Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
Experimental Energy Well
Centrium Medium Armor Plating
Precision Energy Filter
Advanced Overload Amplifier
Advanced Overload Regulator
Improved Fusion Compressor
Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None
Game
------
Seed: 1442397454
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 416 min
Sessions: 24
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 24
ASCII: 1
Keyboard: 0
Font: 18/Terminus
Map View: 76x50
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I killed four behemoths on -1 alone, so that display of two killed is definitely bugged. It should be about six or so. Edit: I took out most of them with corruption from EM weapons, which explains why they don't show up on the log. So everything is working as intended.
WOW what a run. Definitely been focusing more on hacking to keep threat levels down but research consistently wrecks me. Headed out to the woods for a few days, been a busy week, so I've been watching everyone's score climb, plan on giving a few more tries next week once my life chills out.
Congratulations zxc, that's a sick score, no doubt pumped up by your Access rampage.
Quote from: zxc on September 17, 2015, 02:48:15 AM
Access was far easier than Research and actually probably Factory too.
This is a side effect of several factors. Notice that highest-tier robots from the main classes peak out at a rating of about 8~9, meaning the most difficult part of the game will be when you first encounter them in Research. By Access, you have access to consistently better parts, but your enemies haven't continued to grow stronger. Thus over the past months players are either stopped in Research or will probably escape, but not usually get stuck in Access itself--if you can get to Access in good shape your chances of making it out increase.
More powerful robots will be waiting for you in the late-game branches if you decide to take those routes for the harder endings.
Another part of the reason you found it easier than you otherwise might have in terms of Programmers and the food clock is that I reduced their frequency significantly for Alpha 3, especially in the end game.
Not sure about the lack of assault squads if you were causing that much destruction in Assault, but it could be caused by them not having enough time to respond yet, or you were purging threats. (?)
Quote from: Happylisk on September 17, 2015, 06:40:55 AM
Spoily question for K:
Spoiler
Is it possible to indirect hack a schematic for a drone, be it the one released from the drone bay or the one released by hunters (I believe the ones from hunters are called Fly)? If so, would you mind giving me the rating number and robot name of those little beasties? My thinking is, if the rating of a drone is less than the rating of a drone bay, it would be easier to indirect hack the drone schematic. That in turn would basically turn fabricators into stationary drone bays. I believe the drone's name is N-XX Fly, but I have no idea what the numbers are or whether it's even worthwhile trying to fab them separate from a bay).
I am half tempted to experiment with combat allies, but I don't like the adding of making the security level go up more than it needs to and have no desire to see programmers turn my buddies against me.
Nope,
Spoiler
The N-00 Fly is only launched by Hunters, and your own drones have no designation and cannot be fabricated. That would be OP. If you call them back to re-dock they are fully repaired, though :) (not that they can easily survive a confrontation once it's begun--their advantage is not getting hit in the first place)
You can consider using Swarmers as makeshift drones. They're actually faster than drones, though more likely to be hit, and will engage targets rather than flee.
What you need are some Programmer allies :P
Quote from: Happylisk on September 17, 2015, 08:15:25 AM
I discovered something that's meta-gaming but it's made my factory runs easier:
Spoiler
Every time I start a factory level, I hold down alt and scroll around with the arrows. This moves the map around. By seeing how far or how little I can scroll, I can instantly tell which corner of the map I'm in. I then hug the perimeter of the map and travel to the next corner. It's dramatically speeded up finding exits. It also helps that I generally have a better feel for how the maps look.
I was wondering when someone would notice this. It's not obvious right away in Cogmind, though technically it's a common feature of many traditional roguelikes.
Quote from: boomblip on September 17, 2015, 08:56:27 AM
Definitely been focusing more on hacking to keep threat levels down but research consistently wrecks me.
As explained above that's the most difficult area of the game, so get over that hump and you should be able to pull off a win.
Of the 64 total achievements, 17 have been fully revealed so far:
- 1337
- Always Prepared
- Assembly Line
- Center of Attention
- Deathwish
- Giant Slayer
- Gladiator
- Hotshot
- Librarian
- Night Owl
- Packrat
- Scavenger
- System Compromised
- Unperturbed
- Unstoppable
- War Machine
- WMD
Six days left!
Thanks folks.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 17, 2015, 10:06:08 PM
Notice that highest-tier robots from the main classes peak out at a rating of about 8~9, meaning the most difficult part of the game will be when you first encounter them in Research. By Access, you have access to consistently better parts, but your enemies haven't continued to grow stronger.
This is a good point, but I'm mostly referring to the number of enemies rather than how strong they were individually.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 17, 2015, 10:06:08 PM
Another part of the reason you found it easier than you otherwise might have in terms of Programmers and the food clock is that I reduced their frequency significantly for Alpha 3, especially in the end game.
Their frequency seems good - the problem is that programmers were being sent (according to the log) but not finding me. This happened at least a dozen times while I was around the edges of the map attempting to hack the exit location.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 17, 2015, 10:06:08 PM
Not sure about the lack of assault squads if you were causing that much destruction in Assault, but it could be caused by them not having enough time to respond yet, or you were purging threats. (?)
The last time I purged threat was on -3 I believe. No assault squads were ever sent on -1. It's like my alert level was permanently stuck at a low one for the duration of -1. -3 on the other hand was so full of enemies that I could barely move without encountering more. So either there is some weird issue with -1, or it's intended to be much calmer than Research.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 17, 2015, 10:06:08 PM
Quote from: Happylisk on September 17, 2015, 08:15:25 AM
I discovered something that's meta-gaming but it's made my factory runs easier:
Spoiler
Every time I start a factory level, I hold down alt and scroll around with the arrows. This moves the map around. By seeing how far or how little I can scroll, I can instantly tell which corner of the map I'm in. I then hug the perimeter of the map and travel to the next corner. It's dramatically speeded up finding exits. It also helps that I generally have a better feel for how the maps look.
I was wondering when someone would notice this. It's not obvious right away in Cogmind, though technically it's a common feature of many traditional roguelikes.
This is interesting, and I hadn't tried to do this although I look around the map a lot. Shouldn't it be simple to prevent this from being effective if you wished?
Quote from: Happylisk on September 17, 2015, 08:15:25 AM
Out of curiosity, were you using EMP launchers against Behemoths, of HERF cannons? I assume it wasn't emp rifles.
I was using a mixture of EM weapons against the Behemoths. Some HERF cannons and some programmer rifles. It was extremely effective.
I didn't make much use of launchers throughout this run. I found that, other than an explosive launcher for the odd Swarmer group, they weren't so effective. This is partially because I didn't find many great launchers until the 9* one at the very end (which still took several shots to kill grunts, while I could one-shot them with my guns), and partially because I avoided open areas where possible and stuck to small corridors in order to more safely fight fewer enemies at a time.
Quote from: zxc on September 17, 2015, 11:04:24 PM
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 17, 2015, 10:06:08 PM
Notice that highest-tier robots from the main classes peak out at a rating of about 8~9, meaning the most difficult part of the game will be when you first encounter them in Research. By Access, you have access to consistently better parts, but your enemies haven't continued to grow stronger.
This is a good point, but I'm mostly referring to the number of enemies rather than how strong they were individually.
I was going to point out that it could be overcome by increasing the number of enemies, but then you'd likely be more easily overwhelmed.
Unless perhaps you're carrying 40 inventory items, which we need to do something about :P
Quote from: zxc on September 17, 2015, 11:04:24 PM
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 17, 2015, 10:06:08 PM
Another part of the reason you found it easier than you otherwise might have in terms of Programmers and the food clock is that I reduced their frequency significantly for Alpha 3, especially in the end game.
Their frequency seems good - the problem is that programmers were being sent (according to the log) but not finding me. This happened at least a dozen times while I was around the edges of the map attempting to hack the exit location.
Okay, that might be a problem. I'll look into it because it could be a factor of the access points being blocked off (though they're not supposed to enter from those).
Spoiler
Actually, now that I think of it that must be it because all exits from Access are locked away. This issue would block assault squads as well! This will be more easily resolved if and when the garrison mechanic is added, which I wanted to add soonish...
Oops, you had it a little easier than you should have :)
Quote from: zxc on September 17, 2015, 11:04:24 PM
This is interesting, and I hadn't tried to do this although I look around the map a lot. Shouldn't it be simple to prevent this from being effective if you wished?
Not too simple, no. You'd have to fake some map UI interactions while the cursor is outside the map, and do it in multiple modes. Even more difficult to address: If you allow the player to scroll indefinitely even beyond the edges of the map they could get lost (unless familiar with the "press Enter to recenter" command). Not very friendly...
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 17, 2015, 11:22:31 PM
Quote from: zxc on September 17, 2015, 11:04:24 PM
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 17, 2015, 10:06:08 PM
Notice that highest-tier robots from the main classes peak out at a rating of about 8~9, meaning the most difficult part of the game will be when you first encounter them in Research. By Access, you have access to consistently better parts, but your enemies haven't continued to grow stronger.
This is a good point, but I'm mostly referring to the number of enemies rather than how strong they were individually.
I was going to point out that it could be overcome by increasing the number of enemies, but then you'd likely be more easily overwhelmed. Unless perhaps you're carrying 40 inventory items, which we need to do something about :P
I just think it should be in line with Research. And no doubt maxing out your inventory capacity is the optimal strategy, but I think carrying a ton of items like that is the best way of reducing the variance of the run and of controlling your item situation. I don't know how you're meant to cope if your treads get crit-destroyed and you have no more backups, and hunters are shooting at you through the wall and you can't move to take a shot at them because of a 2k delay (this happened to me at one point that run)...
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 17, 2015, 11:22:31 PM
Quote from: zxc on September 17, 2015, 11:04:24 PM
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 17, 2015, 10:06:08 PM
Another part of the reason you found it easier than you otherwise might have in terms of Programmers and the food clock is that I reduced their frequency significantly for Alpha 3, especially in the end game.
Their frequency seems good - the problem is that programmers were being sent (according to the log) but not finding me. This happened at least a dozen times while I was around the edges of the map attempting to hack the exit location.
Okay, that might be a problem. I'll look into it because it could be a factor of the access points being blocked off (though they're not supposed to enter from those).
Spoiler
Actually, now that I think of it that must be it because all exits from Access are locked away. This issue would block assault squads as well! This will be more easily resolved if and when the garrison mechanic is added, which I wanted to add soonish...
I did think something was wrong to this effect. Still though, once I took out that first behemoth I was all set; the game was mine to lose. No assault squadrons were even sent in the log. Programmers did eventually find me when I moved away from the map edges to look for the exit though. Maybe they were regular programmers patrolling around rather than the ones actually sent for me? I actually wanted squads to come for me because I was prepared to annihilate them standing by the exit.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 17, 2015, 11:22:31 PM
Quote from: zxc on September 17, 2015, 11:04:24 PM
This is interesting, and I hadn't tried to do this although I look around the map a lot. Shouldn't it be simple to prevent this from being effective if you wished?
Not too simple, no. You'd have to fake some map UI interactions while the cursor is outside the map, and do it in multiple modes. Even more difficult to address: If you allow the player to scroll indefinitely even beyond the edges of the map they could get lost (unless familiar with the "press Enter to recenter" command). Not very friendly...
[/quote]
You could have it detect when the player has scrolled away sufficiently and just display a small message saying 'Press Enter to reset your view' or something to that effect. In any case I won't be using this method because finding exits in Factory is easy enough. Finding exits in Research, on the other hand...
Quote from: zxc on September 17, 2015, 11:34:25 PM
I just think it should be in line with Research.
Aside from the slight level gap that starts to grow by then, it would be if you had the normal squads on your tail. Although the map is more open so the dynamics of encounters would be a little different from Research.
Quote from: zxc on September 17, 2015, 11:34:25 PM
And no doubt maxing out your inventory capacity is the optimal strategy, but I think carrying a ton of items like that is the best way of reducing the variance of the run and of controlling your item situation.
Carrying useful spares is definitely important, though not quite that many. I think (ideally) one or two storage units should be enough for a combat run.
Quote from: zxc on September 17, 2015, 11:34:25 PM
Maybe they were regular programmers patrolling around rather than the ones actually sent for me? I actually wanted squads to come for me because I was prepared to annihilate them standing by the exit.
Yeah those would have been regular patrols.
And if you'd engaged the Programmers that weren't coming you may have ended up facing assault squads, too, due to the extra destruction, but it's hard to say.
I can see you standing on the exit lift, guns and cannons blazing as you give them a goodbye present to remember you by.
Quote from: zxc on September 17, 2015, 11:34:25 PM
You could have it detect when the player has scrolled away sufficiently and just display a small message saying 'Press Enter to reset your view' or something to that effect. In any case I won't be using this method because finding exits in Factory is easy enough. Finding exits in Research, on the other hand...
It's possible, though in all it would be a lot of work to prevent a practice that may not always be so beneficial, and could even send you in the wrong/worse direction depending on the internal layout.
Some assorted thoughts:
If you want to nerf storage units, I think you can simply remove HCP. Storage Units. Then Large Storage Units will be the biggest. However, I think for a trade, it would be good to remove player items getting insta-destroyed by crits. Also, saboteurs blasting off storage units are the worst, but I realise they're meant to be nasty.
A hotkey to enable all weapons (and disable all weapons) would be great. Something like Ctrl-[. Often I want to disable all weapons but my launcher, or vice versa. Other times I just want to enable my energy weapons to not spend matter, or just a single weapon to scare off a Recycler, or a single cannon to make a hole in the wall. I'd make use of a similar hotkey for enabling/disabling all propulsion as well (Ctrl-= ?), for energy min-maxing when resting, but that's only relevant for non-combat runs and even then, not so often.
It is rather annoying that when one of your weapons misfires due to system corruption, they all seem to get disabled. I'm not there is a point to this, because even when you have them disabled, they can still misfire. So it just results in more key-presses to turn everything back on again.
Behemoths could use a defensive buff I think. Obviously something innate, as they come with great defensive items already. Their huge size makes them very easy to hit, and they seem to get destroyed by system corruption really fast, though I haven't tried full EM weapon volleys on other enemies all that much. A single Hunter is a lot harder to kill I find, for my combat Cogminds.
Is there a way to 'shout' to get the attention of nearby enemies?
First of all congratulation, zxc, that is an incredible run. Considering you spent ~40% of the run in Access, I bow to your powers of concentration. By -3 I think I'm psychically damaged by the attrition more than physically, and wonder if a little more positivity (or negativity) in taking my 58th tactical escape (57 is my limit, man) - I would have at least lasted a bit longer.
Looking at the top scores, -3 clearly is a big wall for lots of players. Wonder how much is mental ...
I had a thought regarding the 1-tread build (and also perhaps in general regarding tactical escapes) - and getting these unexpectedly shot off. A utility that allows you to 'emergency detach' all items in a standard turn, to make a run for it (you don't want to stand in a firefight carefully removing items one at a time to get your speed up to something reasonable) would certainly make sense lore-wise (viewing the Cogmind as the 'core') - but might not be well balanced. Perhaps could be done so by applying an energy / matter cost (you need to plan the emergency detach procedure at least a little bit).
Quote from: mendonca on September 18, 2015, 03:17:58 AM
First of all congratulation, zxc, that is an incredible run.
Thanks!
Quote from: mendonca on September 18, 2015, 03:17:58 AM
Considering you spent ~40% of the run in Access, I bow to your powers of concentration. By -3 I think I'm psychically damaged by the attrition more than physically, and wonder if a little more positivity (or negativity) in taking my 58th tactical escape (57 is my limit, man) - I would have at least lasted a bit longer.
Quite a bit of those turns spent in Access were in waiting out terminal traces while trying to hack the exit location, which I eventually gave up trying. I was confident in being able to find the exit by just exploring, but since enemies couldn't find me at the terminal I thought it was safer to try and hack the exit that way. The attrition does take a massive toll. I think my earlier posts that I made during the run show my rising levels of stress :P . Especially when you keep making these combat runs that get far but not far enough.
Quote from: mendonca on September 18, 2015, 03:17:58 AM
Looking at the top scores, -3 clearly is a big wall for lots of players. Wonder how much is mental ...
I fully believe (and Kyzrati does too I think) that Research is the hardest part of the game. The levels are less open compared with Factory, and enemies seem more concentrated. Plus, the enemies reach their final tiers. To add to all that, there are many dead-ends, making navigation difficult and time-consuming (which results in more attrition as more enemies find you while back-tracking, which results in further increases to alert level and so on). Plus because the levels are less open than Factory, it becomes very hard to avoid key enemies like Carriers and assault teams.
In this run -3 was still the hardest floor, but I managed to stay intact and maintain my build during its most testing moments. Also, I kept stepping on traps that destroyed my treads, and got critted to lose my 100% integrity treads constantly... And when I killed a sentry I couldn't even reach its loot before more enemies were upon me, and the treads were recycled. I don't understand how my propulsion could get so unlucky.
These screenshots show quiet moments amidst a lot of fighting, which I feared would lead to a feedback loop of endless enemies until my build collapsed (without my Adv. Force Field it's very possible I would have collapsed):
In the first one, there are two hunters on the other side of the wall shooting me, but I have no propulsion. I had to destroy the wall with cannons in order to hit them.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/DpYzzFh.png)(https://i.imgur.com/VTlLhyQ.png)(https://i.imgur.com/HZE5ylC.png)
Quote from: mendonca on September 18, 2015, 03:17:58 AM
I had a thought regarding the 1-tread build (and also perhaps in general regarding tactical escapes) - and getting these unexpectedly shot off. A utility that allows you to 'emergency detach' all items in a standard turn, to make a run for it (you don't want to stand in a firefight carefully removing items one at a time to get your speed up to something reasonable) would certainly make sense lore-wise (viewing the Cogmind as the 'core') - but might not be well balanced. Perhaps could be done so by applying an energy / matter cost (you need to plan the emergency detach procedure at least a little bit).
I've thought about this quite a bit as well. It was really hard to throw off my storage units to lower my mass enough to escape. Honestly, it should let you drop storage units and all the excess items in one action, like as though it got blown off. In this screenshot I wanted to transition into flight, but it's almost quicker to let my storage units get blown off.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/Bz274lz.png)
Separate request for Kyzrati: sort by rating for inventory? Decent idea or no? I mostly use sort by type currently, but maybe sort by rating would be useful as a shortcut to finding your 'worst' inventory items to more quickly work out what to drop for a shiny new item on the floor.
Reading this discussion about how Access is easier than research is making me a sad panda indeed. My guy on Access probably would have made it if I
Spoiler
didn't stupidly (and needlessly) walk past the 2 behemoths guarding Command after hacking down the gates, which cost me all of my armor and guns.
My current run is a spectacular exercise in fail. I found storage so ended up with tons of drone bays, launchers, and storage units. (scanalyzing a drone bay schematic afterwords was easy as pie). I'm sitting on Factory -5 with like 4 different guided launchers. The problem is I'm basically out of everything else. The security level is rising and with my launchers I can squelch assault squads... which makes the level just go higher. I had to put the run down for work, but I imagine I'll get home, fire up cogmind, and die spectacularly in about 5 minutes.
A part of me wants to try an ally based build revolving around allied programmers (you wouldn't need too many weapons or coolant systems) but I'm going to save all experimentation for after the tournament.
I'm assuming we'll go back to weekly seed runs once this is over?
Quote from: Happylisk on September 18, 2015, 06:30:41 AM
Reading this discussion about how Access is easier than research is making me a sad panda indeed.
A large part of why Access is easier than Research is because it's more predictable ie. after you've been there several times, you know what you're doing. My first time in Research was much like yours, although I didn't try to fight any enemies.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 18, 2015, 06:30:41 AM
My current run is a spectacular exercise in fail. I found storage so ended up with tons of drone bays, launchers, and storage units. (scanalyzing a drone bay schematic afterwords was easy as pie). I'm sitting on Factory -5 with like 4 different guided launchers. The problem is I'm basically out of everything else. The security level is rising and with my launchers I can squelch assault squads... which makes the level just go higher. I had to put the run down for work, but I imagine I'll get home, fire up cogmind, and die spectacularly in about 5 minutes.
That does sound like you're going to be in some trouble soon. It'd be great if you could purge some alert levels. If you have the space, you can gear up quite fast by killing some guys, but armour and key defensive items like force fields aren't going to be easy to find.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 18, 2015, 06:30:41 AM
A part of me wants to try an ally based build revolving around allied programmers (you wouldn't need too many weapons or coolant systems) but I'm going to save all experimentation for after the tournament.
That'd be interesting. Not my cup of tea however. After the challenge, I'm going to go off and try to read all the records currently in the game, and try to get some screenshots for my guide.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 18, 2015, 06:30:41 AM
I'm assuming we'll go back to weekly seed runs once this is over?
Sure thing. I see no reason why we wouldn't continue them.
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 06:55:31 AM
That does sound like you're going to be in some trouble soon. It'd be great if you could purge some alert levels. If you have the space, you can gear up quite fast by killing some guys, but armour and key defensive items like force fields aren't going to be easy to find.
Oh I'm in trouble now. My treads got blown off right before I stopped, and I'm out of spares. I have to hope for a hauler to come by ASAP and drop one. And you're right, forcefields are so preciously rare. I'm tempted to dive into waste if I can and hope for the best. It's either that, or deploying one of my drone bays and hoping for a quick exit to drop the alert level.
K's right - I currently have 36 inventory space, which is far more than I normally roll with, and it's hurting my combat effectiveness. I think I'm going to go back to slightly smaller inventories in future runs (20ish) and only crank up the space around -4 or -3.
EDIT: I wonder how viable it would be to fabricate Protector class allies to supplement your defenses...
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 12:40:51 AM
If you want to nerf storage units, I think you can simply remove HCP. Storage Units. Then Large Storage Units will be the biggest. However, I think for a trade, it would be good to remove player items getting insta-destroyed by crits. Also, saboteurs blasting off storage units are the worst, but I realise they're meant to be nasty.
I might agree that the player's parts should be immune to crits. They're quite deadly and can suddenly ruin everything--at the wrong time a string of bad rolls can bury you in short order. (A related issue: Player parts are already immune to disruption, for the same reason.)
Another option would be to keep that feature and add a new type of part that can prevent against it (or add this as a feature of one or more existing defensive parts).
Or perhaps make Cogmind parts immune to crits unless already at < 25% integrity. In any case, I was already planning to make Storage Units themselves outright immune to crits.
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 12:40:51 AM
A hotkey to enable all weapons (and disable all weapons) would be great. Something like Ctrl-[. Often I want to disable all weapons but my launcher, or vice versa. Other times I just want to enable my energy weapons to not spend matter, or just a single weapon to scare off a Recycler, or a single cannon to make a hole in the wall. I'd make use of a similar hotkey for enabling/disabling all propulsion as well (Ctrl-= ?), for energy min-maxing when resting, but that's only relevant for non-combat runs and even then, not so often.
Good ideas.
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 12:40:51 AM
It is rather annoying that when one of your weapons misfires due to system corruption, they all seem to get disabled. I'm not there is a point to this, because even when you have them disabled, they can still misfire. So it just results in more key-presses to turn everything back on again.
Adraius and I discussed this somewhere recently (can't find the post). It's due to how the player UI and fire control system work--a programming issue. I'll code a workaround to make it more friendly.
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 12:40:51 AM
Behemoths could use a defensive buff I think. Obviously something innate, as they come with great defensive items already. Their huge size makes them very easy to hit, and they seem to get destroyed by system corruption really fast, though I haven't tried full EM weapon volleys on other enemies all that much. A single Hunter is a lot harder to kill I find, for my combat Cogminds.
Behemoths are already somewhat resistant to EM, unlike most other front-line units. The real buff would be to give them greater core integrity, or reduce their core coverage.
I've always thought EM in general might be an OP damage type, especially by the end of the game, though surprisingly you don't use it much.
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 12:40:51 AM
Is there a way to 'shout' to get the attention of nearby enemies?
Only by shooting non-combat robots, or of course being spotted directly or by a Watcher. I wonder if adding such a feature would be too effective a tactical move.
Quote from: mendonca on September 18, 2015, 03:17:58 AM
I had a thought regarding the 1-tread build (and also perhaps in general regarding tactical escapes) - and getting these unexpectedly shot off. A utility that allows you to 'emergency detach' all items in a standard turn, to make a run for it (you don't want to stand in a firefight carefully removing items one at a time to get your speed up to something reasonable) would certainly make sense lore-wise (viewing the Cogmind as the 'core') - but might not be well balanced. Perhaps could be done so by applying an energy / matter cost (you need to plan the emergency detach procedure at least a little bit).
I remember a similar discussion during the 7DRL, or perhaps it was way back when I was brainstorming the new version... either way, I think it fits just fine into the lore, and would be a valid option. I don't see it being particularly unbalanced since you'd be giving up
everything except 4 inventory items. Other opinions? Imagine having had this option available on previous runs--would it have meant anything for you?
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 03:45:39 AM
Separate request for Kyzrati: sort by rating for inventory? Decent idea or no? I mostly use sort by type currently, but maybe sort by rating would be useful as a shortcut to finding your 'worst' inventory items to more quickly work out what to drop for a shiny new item on the floor.
Unless you have a ridiculous inventory size
and it's filled with a lot of same-category items, I think type-sorting combined with 'q' mode is plenty good enough there. (Plus adding a new one would mess up the conveniently understandable keyboard scheme).
Quote from: Happylisk on September 18, 2015, 06:30:41 AM
Reading this discussion about how Access is easier than research is making me a sad panda indeed. My guy on Access probably would have made it if I
I was thinking about you during this discussion, and when you first reported it imagined that you really should have won that run :(
Quote from: Happylisk on September 18, 2015, 06:30:41 AM
I'm sitting on Factory -5 with like 4 different guided launchers. The problem is I'm basically out of everything else.
That seems to be one of my own trappings--
ooh stash of launchers I'll just carry all of them. My last game ended not long after I emptied my inventory to carry four Guided Mini-nuke Launchers :P. It was great blowing everything to hell, but when I wasn't in a good position to use them I got picked apart; and matter was an issue. Should have just brought one and kept myself a little more versatile.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 18, 2015, 06:30:41 AM
A part of me wants to try an ally based build revolving around allied programmers (you wouldn't need too many weapons or coolant systems) but I'm going to save all experimentation for after the tournament.
I'm assuming we'll go back to weekly seed runs once this is over?
Yep. I'd appreciate if someone else wants to take over management if jimmijamjams doesn't have time to do it anymore. I can provide the BBCode/content for the current format to save time--it's just a matter of coming up with a seed name and taking a couple screenshots.
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 06:55:31 AM
A large part of why Access is easier than Research is because it's more predictable ie. after you've been there several times, you know what you're doing. My first time in Research was much like yours, although I didn't try to fight any enemies.
I imagine getting a stealth win
before a combat is a better idea, since the former can be achieved more quickly and allow you to scope out the maps rather than doing so slowly and without as many supporting sensors.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 18, 2015, 07:41:01 AM
K's right - I currently have 36 inventory space, which is far more than I normally roll with, and it's hurting my combat effectiveness. I think I'm going to go back to slightly smaller inventories in future runs (20ish) and only crank up the space around -4 or -3.
:-\ My combat effectiveness was sky high with a large inventory, because all you need to fight is power sources, treads, some useful utilities, and lots and lots of guns. When something gets destroyed, it gets replaced by a backup, and I can continue fighting. It seems the problem here is that you didn't have enough backup items (or the right backup items), which can make the large inventory seem rather ineffectual. I believe maximising your inventory (to a point) is optimal in the current Alpha.
Some screenshots in Factory of my run:
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/2Cv8ilx.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/5VB5j2X.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/fljQsk9.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/8233Uwe.png)
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 18, 2015, 07:29:59 PM
Behemoths are already somewhat resistant to EM, unlike most other front-line units. The real buff would be to give them greater core integrity, or reduce their core coverage.
I've always thought EM in general might be an OP damage type, especially by the end of the game, though surprisingly you don't use it much.
It could be that it's OP at late-game. I've used it a lot early and mid-game, but found that kinetic seemed more effective, as well as not generating as much heat / spending as much energy. Will have to experiment more. Those behemoths were just going down after a couple of EM volleys, by system corruption.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 18, 2015, 07:29:59 PM
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 12:40:51 AM
Is there a way to 'shout' to get the attention of nearby enemies?
Only by shooting non-combat robots, or of course being spotted directly or by a Watcher. I wonder if adding such a feature would be too effective a tactical move.
The situation I was thinking of was for luring sentries off their posts, so that my stealth builds could exit more easily. Right now I have to stand in the open and take a hit in order to get the sentry's attention, and then kite it to move it off the exit. However, shouting could be useful when you are in a tactically advantageous position and wish to fight.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 18, 2015, 07:29:59 PM
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 03:45:39 AM
Separate request for Kyzrati: sort by rating for inventory? Decent idea or no? I mostly use sort by type currently, but maybe sort by rating would be useful as a shortcut to finding your 'worst' inventory items to more quickly work out what to drop for a shiny new item on the floor.
Unless you have a ridiculous inventory size and it's filled with a lot of same-category items, I think type-sorting combined with 'q' mode is plenty good enough there. (Plus adding a new one would mess up the conveniently understandable keyboard scheme).
I would agree there. I did have a ridiculous inventory, reaching a max of 50 at one point. Wouldn't adding that mode be simply a matter of adding the letter 'r' to sort by inventory? Right now 'r' stops running right? But escape serves the same purpose.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 18, 2015, 07:29:59 PM
Yep. I'd appreciate if someone else wants to take over management if jimmijamjams doesn't have time to do it anymore. I can provide the BBCode/content for the current format to save time--it's just a matter of coming up with a seed name and taking a couple screenshots.
I could perhaps try doing it. Maybe we can all take turns managing it :)
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 18, 2015, 07:29:59 PM
I imagine getting a stealth win before a combat is a better idea, since the former can be achieved more quickly and allow you to scope out the maps rather than doing so slowly and without as many supporting sensors.
I agree here. Playing stealth allows you to see map layouts and patrol patterns, learn how to find exits and secret doors, and so on. You might not be able to focus on these things all the time with a combat build either, as you're always up to your neck in enemies to deal with.
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 09:52:15 PM
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 18, 2015, 07:29:59 PM
Behemoths are already somewhat resistant to EM, unlike most other front-line units. The real buff would be to give them greater core integrity, or reduce their core coverage.
I've always thought EM in general might be an OP damage type, especially by the end of the game, though surprisingly you don't use it much.
It could be that it's OP at late-game. I've used it a lot early and mid-game, but found that kinetic seemed more effective, as well as not generating as much heat / spending as much energy. Will have to experiment more. Those behemoths were just going down after a couple of EM volleys, by system corruption.
It's a better late-game tactic because robots are just as susceptible to EM as they were at the beginning (since it's on its own scale), but the weapons do significantly more damage.
By the end with a full EM loadout you should be able to take out almost anything quickly, as long as you can hit it, so Behemoths are extra easy in that regard. The drawback was supposed to be you're less equipped to confront Programmers, though their number has been reduced from before...
Maybe to offset that change and restore the balance Programmers will need to have their EM resistance further increased.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 18, 2015, 07:29:59 PM
The situation I was thinking of was for luring sentries off their posts, so that my stealth builds could exit more easily. Right now I have to stand in the open and take a hit in order to get the sentry's attention, and then kite it to move it off the exit. However, shouting could be useful when you are in a tactically advantageous position and wish to fight.
I see. There are already 3-4 ways I can think of luring Sentries from their positions without taking direct fire. Not all effective in all situations, but I believe a universal solution would make things a little more boring.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 18, 2015, 07:29:59 PM
I would agree there. I did have a ridiculous inventory, reaching a max of 50 at one point. Wouldn't adding that mode be simply a matter of adding the letter 'r' to sort by inventory? Right now 'r' stops running right? But escape serves the same purpose.
'r' is also used as the actual run key (not just stopping) for players using vi-keys, so it can't be reused.
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 09:52:15 PM
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 18, 2015, 07:29:59 PM
Yep. I'd appreciate if someone else wants to take over management if jimmijamjams doesn't have time to do it anymore. I can provide the BBCode/content for the current format to save time--it's just a matter of coming up with a seed name and taking a couple screenshots.
I could perhaps try doing it. Maybe we can all take turns managing it :)
Be my guest! One less thing I'd have to do :)
Latest stats, of course with a new selection of specific data:
(https://i.imgur.com/hbdSXpZ.png)
(Anything else you're interested in seeing? Other ideas/coming up: Average percent of core damage taken on floors before death, Average system corruption at death, Average hacks per unique machine, and, maybe, Total number of turns spent in each map type.)
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 18, 2015, 10:32:42 PM
It's a better late-game tactic because robots are just as susceptible to EM as they were at the beginning (since it's on its own scale), but the weapons do significantly more damage.
By the end with a full EM loadout you should be able to take out almost anything quickly, as long as you can hit it, so Behemoths are extra easy in that regard. The drawback was supposed to be you're less equipped to confront Programmers, though their number has been reduced from before...
Maybe to offset that change and restore the balance Programmers will need to have their EM resistance further increased.
That's a great point regarding EM late-game. What if enemies required more damage to die from system corruption the more core integrity they have? And regarding programmers, I often swapped weapon loadouts depending on what I was facing (or expecting to face). Programmers are still suicidal i.e. they overheat really fast.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 18, 2015, 10:32:42 PM
I see. There are already 3-4 ways I can think of luring Sentries from their positions without taking direct fire. Not all effective in all situations, but I believe a universal solution would make things a little more boring.
That's completely fair enough! I know of a few ways, I was just wondering since shouting is a thing in games like DCSS.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 18, 2015, 10:32:42 PM
'r' is also used as the actual run key (not just stopping) for players using vi-keys, so it can't be reused.
Fair enough, but you have any number of letters you can use. Still, I agree it wouldn't be an important addition.
Re: those stats, they're quite nifty. You can see avg. damage drop off at 0 because of my 3/4 stealth wins where I hardly do any damage. The only reason why it's even that high is because of the massive damage I did in the combat run. I wonder what extermination squads are, and even the investigation squads. I think the assault teams are the grunt teams with a bruiser/duelist and saboteur, which is a tough mix of units to deal with.
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 11:03:57 PM
That's a great point regarding EM late-game. What if enemies required more damage to die from system corruption the more core integrity they have?
Not sure yet. I'd like the system to be mostly transparent and easy to use (damage = corruption), and the proposed solution works against that.
An alternative would be to equip actual anti-EM parts on later robots (which would be working within the lore space), though then the player has access to these even more frequently. There's also the possibility of giving them more
native resistance to offset better EM weapons (and the player then couldn't have access to any related part), but I wanted to keep class resistances equal across classes regardless of variant (early or late-game).
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 11:03:57 PM
And regarding programmers, I often swapped weapon loadouts depending on what I was facing (or expecting to face). Programmers are still suicidal i.e. they overheat really fast.
I noticed. They were supposed to overheat if you use a good amount of thermal against them, but if they're still melting even before that point then I haven't done enough to counteract it. I'm probably going to do three things to them for the next build: further increase their EM resistance, make them slightly weak against TH weapons (which would be the only such robot), and give them better heat dissipation.
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 11:03:57 PM
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 18, 2015, 10:32:42 PM
'r' is also used as the actual run key (not just stopping) for players using vi-keys, so it can't be reused.
Fair enough, but you have any number of letters you can use. Still, I agree it wouldn't be an important addition.
Right now I'm all for avoiding anything that's not an "important addition" :P. Soooo many important things to do.
Like new branches... all of which have been getting stacked behind
other important things to do...
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 11:03:57 PM
Re: those stats, they're quite nifty. You can see avg. damage drop off at 0 because of my 3/4 stealth wins where I hardly do any damage. The only reason why it's even that high is because of the massive damage I did in the combat run. I wonder what extermination squads are, and even the investigation squads. I think the assault teams are the grunt teams with a bruiser/duelist and saboteur, which is a tough mix of units to deal with.
Yeah, I noticed the cause behind the 0-depth explosive ratio--that bar is... all zxc. I'm curious what it would've looked like
without the combat run! It would perhaps also be slightly different if the Programmers and/or potential assault squads could reach you in -1. Once we have some other combat victories (if that happens by the end--I hope), that bar will certainly make a corresponding jump.
Also interesting: Notice the rather significant jump in total damage going into -3 ;)
The squad types you'll learn about later in Alpha 5-ish, if you haven't figured it out by then. You can decipher the associations now by hacking dispatch records in combination with what's happening in response to your actions. Easier said than done since terminals aren't always so convenient (plus you're usually busy with more important things :P).
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 19, 2015, 08:21:02 AM
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 11:03:57 PM
That's a great point regarding EM late-game. What if enemies required more damage to die from system corruption the more core integrity they have?
Not sure yet. I'd like the system to be mostly transparent and easy to use (damage = corruption), and the proposed solution works against that.
I would argue that this would be just as easy to use (damage still = corruption). In fact, I think it is less intuitive that a huge robot like a Behemoth dies as fast to the same amount of EM damage as a tiny, weakling robot. I kind of like that system though, as it gives Behemoths an interesting weak-point. However, they're too weak! Maybe late-game EM weapons need to be nerfed instead?
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 19, 2015, 08:21:02 AM
It would perhaps also be slightly different if the Programmers and/or potential assault squads could reach you in -1.
Definitely the damage would have been higher. Also, my score would have been higher :P
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 19, 2015, 08:21:02 AM
Also interesting: Notice the rather significant jump in total damage going into -3 ;)
That's very interesting. I would suppose it's due to the increase in concentration of enemies, which further results in rapid increases to alert levels and even more robots. Plus most combat runs end when the alert level gets too high, and a lot of high score runs ended on -3.
I have a cogmind currently rampaging through Access. I had to stop for the day due to social obligations but I think this is it. Getting through research without sensors, drones, or hacking was painless after I realized what I've been doing wrong literally every run til now. I'll post more after hopefully reaching the surface.
Quote from: zxc on September 19, 2015, 10:14:26 AM
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 19, 2015, 08:21:02 AM
Quote from: zxc on September 18, 2015, 11:03:57 PM
That's a great point regarding EM late-game. What if enemies required more damage to die from system corruption the more core integrity they have?
Not sure yet. I'd like the system to be mostly transparent and easy to use (damage = corruption), and the proposed solution works against that.
I would argue that this would be just as easy to use (damage still = corruption). In fact, I think it is less intuitive that a huge robot like a Behemoth dies as fast to the same amount of EM damage as a tiny, weakling robot. I kind of like that system though, as it gives Behemoths an interesting weak-point. However, they're too weak! Maybe late-game EM weapons need to be nerfed instead?
The idea was to give them a weak point you can take advantage of, yes. It is possible late-game EM weapons could use a bit of a nerf, but it would be all to easy to get almost no one to use them. As is they can at least do a non-minimal amount of real damage along with their EM effect. Lowering their damage further would mean that if you still use them, the main purpose would be purely for corruption, and you'd have to use a lot of them to achieve that (combining them with other weapons would be pointless compared to how it sorta works now).
An alternative to better protect specific robots would be to equip them with Dynamic Insulation Systems (there are several robots more advanced than a Behemoth that use these).
It's mostly a case of whether EM is OP enough against
everything such that it's always the best option. With Programmers soon to get another boost in that regard, it could make that a more dangerous strategy. (For the record: biomatter, the first Cogmind to win, said he loved late-game EM and thought it was OP at the time.)
Quote from: Happylisk on September 19, 2015, 02:06:04 PM
I have a cogmind currently rampaging through Access. I had to stop for the day due to social obligations but I think this is it. Getting through research without sensors, drones, or hacking was painless after I realized what I've been doing wrong literally every run til now. I'll post more after hopefully reaching the surface.
Sounds like you can already see the light at the end of the tunnel! Rampaging through Access is usually the state shortly before a victorious run :D
I'm also quite curious what it is you discovered that you've been doing wrong ???
Quote from: Happylisk on September 19, 2015, 02:06:04 PM
I have a cogmind currently rampaging through Access. I had to stop for the day due to social obligations but I think this is it. Getting through research without sensors, drones, or hacking was painless after I realized what I've been doing wrong literally every run til now. I'll post more after hopefully reaching the surface.
Dying to know what the secret is. Getting through research painlessly is something that eludes everyone else, including myself.
Did you start mining tunnels through the map? Stack EM weapons and found they were OP? Conversely, stacked kinetic weapons and found they were super efficient with force fields? Starting purging threat
a lot? But you said without hacking... Did you start moving into optimal positions at the start of firefights (like you would in DCSS) instead of fighting in the open? Allocate more space in your pack for weapons? Trying to figure out what would be a eureka moment, but it's hard. :P
Just uploaded another score update (http://www.gridsagegames.com/cogmind/events/AC2015/). The latter half of the top 10 is starting to shuffle over weekend play, and I also just revealed another batch of the achievements (though more names than descriptions for now).
LOCATION = SURFACEGOAL = ACCOMPLISHEDLRC-V3 codenamed "Happylisk" has left the building.
Spoiler
Cogmind - Alpha 3c
Name: Happylisk
---[ ESCAPED! ]---
Performance
-------------
Evolutions (9) 4500
Robots Destroyed (319) 1595
Value Destroyed (14896) 14896
Prototype IDs (8) 160
Alien Tech Identified (0) 0
Bonus (2000) 2000
TOTAL SCORE: 23151
Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity 1347/1600
Matter 290/300
Energy 1293/1300
System Corruption 7%
Temperature Cool (4)
Location Surface
Parts
-------
Power (3)
Quantum Reactor
Quantum Reactor
Quantum Reactor
Propulsion (2)
Improved Heavy Treads
Utility (15)
Energy Well
Advanced Targeting Computer
Layered Light Armor Plating
Large Storage Unit
Large Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
Advanced Heat Sink
Heavy Armor Plating
Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Advanced Force Field
Advanced Cooling System
Improved Utility Shielding
Weapon (5)
Heavy Disruptor Cannon
Multirail
Compact HERF Cannon
Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
Inventory
-----------
Quantum Reactor
Improved Heavy Treads
Heavy Disruptor Cannon
Compact HERF Cannon
Compact HERF Cannon
Railgun
Railgun
Railgun
Linear Accelerator
Linear Accelerator
Micro-nuke Launcher
Point Singularity Launcher
Point Singularity Launcher
Guided Micro-nuke Launcher
Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Heat Sink
High-capacity Storage Unit
Matter Compressor
Energy Mantle
Improved Targeting Computer
Hacking Suite
Advanced Hacking Suite
Railgun
Peak State
------------
Power
Quantum Reactor
Quantum Reactor
Quantum Reactor
Propulsion
Improved Heavy Treads
Utility
Advanced Heat Sink
Reflective Medium Armor
Energy Well
Large Storage Unit
Large Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
Advanced Targeting Computer
Advanced Force Field
Medium Storage Unit
Advanced Cloaking Device
Advanced Cooling System
Insulated Heavy Armor
Advanced Cloaking Device
Layered Medium Armor Plating
Weapon
Gamma Rifle
Railgun
Gamma Rifle
Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
[Rating: 153]
Favorites
-----------
Power Quantum Reactor
Engine Light Angular Momentum Engine
Power Core Micro Fission Core
Reactor Quantum Reactor
Propulsion Medium Treads
Treads Medium Treads
Leg Aluminum Leg
Utility High-capacity Storage Unit
Device Advanced Heat Sink
Storage High-capacity Storage Unit
Processor Advanced Targeting Computer
Hackware Hacking Suite
Protection Reflective Medium Armor
Weapon Gamma Rifle
Energy Gun Gamma Rifle
Energy Cannon HERF Cannon
Ballistic Gun Railgun
Ballistic Cannon Light Cannon
Launcher Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
Special Weapon Improved Plasma Cutter
Stats
-------
Classes Destroyed 15
Worker 22
Builder 19
Tunneler 2
Hauler 1
Recycler 17
Mechanic 1
Operator 4
Watcher 5
Swarmer 55
Grunt 92
Brawler 1
Duelist 4
Sentry 29
Hunter 18
Programmer 49
NPCs Destroyed 0
Best Kill Streak 10
Combat Bots Only 7
Matter Collected 12142
Salvage Created 16762
Parts Attached 558
Power 63
Propulsion 35
Utility 249
Weapon 211
Parts Lost 154
Power 15
Propulsion 12
Utility 85
Weapon 42
Average Slot Usage (%) 92
Naked Turns 5
Spaces Moved 10385
Fastest Speed (%) 200
Slowest Speed (%) 9
Overloaded Moves 0
Propulsion Burnouts 0
Targets Rammed 2
Cave-ins Triggered 1
Teleports 0
Heaviest Build 214
Greatest Overweight (x) 67
Average Overweight (x) 1
Largest Inventory 46
Most Items Carried 42
Average Items Carried 27
Core Damage Taken 1992
Volleys Fired 830
Largest 5
Hottest 349
Shots Fired 2019
Gun 1284
Cannon 608
Launcher 123
Special 4
Kinetic 1024
Thermal 94
Explosive 57
Electromagnetic 844
Shots Hit Robots 1293
Core Hits 664
Overload Shots 0
Energy Bleed 0
Heat Surge 0
Short Circuit 0
Meltdown 0
Melee Attacks 0
Impact 0
Slashing 0
Piercing 0
Damage Inflicted 44728
Projectiles 34626
Explosions 10091
Melee 0
Ramming 11
Highest Temperature 506
Average Temperature 62
Shutdowns 5
Energy Bleed 1
Interference 4
Matter Decay 0
Short Circuit 1
Damage (minor) 1
Damage (major) 4
Damage (core) 0
Highest Corruption 38
Message Errors 102
Parts Rejected 35
Data loss (map) 140
Data loss (database) 97
Misfires 30
Misdirections 47
Targeting Errors 124
Weapon Failures 28
Haulers Intercepted 1
Robots Corrupted 56
Robots Melted 8
Tactical Retreats 15
Communications Jammed 0
Parts Field Recycled 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Merge Repaired 0
Drone Launches 14
Drone Recoveries 0
Derelicts Assembled 0
Traps Triggered 3
Indirectly 3
Trap Hack Attempts 0
Triggered 0
Disarmed 0
Reprogrammed 0
Reused 0
Machine Familiarity 39
Terminals 27
Fabricators 6
Repair Stations 3
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 3
Machines Hacked 39
Terminals 27
Fabricators 6
Repair Stations 3
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 3
Total Hacks 120
Successful 26
Failed 94
Catastrophic 31
Database Lockouts 0
Manual 71
Terminals 77
Fabricators 18
Repair Stations 12
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 13
Terminal Hacks 6
Record 0
Part Schematic 0
Robot Schematic 0
Robot Analysis 0
Prototype ID Bank 1
Open Door 1
Level Access Points 1
Branch Access Points 0
Emergency Access Points 0
Machine Index 0
Terminal Index 0
Fabricator Index 0
Repair Station Index 0
Recycling Unit Index 0
Scanalyzer Index 0
Alert Level 0
Unreport Threat 3
Locate Traps 0
Disarm Traps 0
Reprogram Traps 0
Dispatch Records 0
Maintenance Status 0
Security Status 0
Surveillance Status 0
Patrol Status 0
Transport Status 0
Investigation Status 0
Extermination Status 0
Reinforcement Status 0
Assault Status 0
Recall Investigation 0
Recall Extermination 0
Recall Reinforcements 0
Recall Assault 0
Hauler Manifests 0
Registered Components 0
Registered Prototypes 0
Zone Layout 0
Sector Layout 0
Machine Controls 0
Hacking Detections 44
Full Trace Events 32
Feedback Events 3
Feedback Corruption 3
Feedback Part Disabled 0
Feedback Blocked 0
Robot Schematics Acquired 0
Robots Built 0
Total Robot Build Rating 0
Robot Fabrication Matter 0
Robot Fabrication Time 0
Part Schematics Acquired 1
Parts Built 4
Total Part Build Rating 4
Part Fabrication Matter 80
Part Fabrication Time 240
Parts Repaired 2
Part Repair Time 75
Parts Recycled 0
Recycled Matter 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Scanalyzed 3
Part Schematics Acquired 1
Parts Damaged 0
Robot Analysis Total 0
Robots Rewired 0
Robots Hacked 0
Non-combat 0
Combat 0
Parse 0
Link 0
Rebooted 0
Overloaded 0
Assimilated 0
Manual 0
Secondary 0
Robot Hack Failures 0
Allies Hacked 0
Hacks Repelled 0
Total Allies 42
Largest Group 10
Highest-Rated Group 55
Highest-Rated Ally 10
Total Orders 15
STAY 0
GOTO 1
ROAM 0
FOLLOW 0
GUARD 0
AID 0
BUILD 0
TUNNEL 0
DROP 0
PICKUP 0
COLLECT 0
EXPLORE 14
RETURN 0
Terraforming Orders 0
Walls Built 0
Walls Tunneled 0
Ally Attacks 61
Total Damage 615
Kills 9
Allies Corrupted 1
Allies Melted 0
Peak Influence 422
Average Influence 137
Maximum Alert Level 2
Low Security (%) 71
Level 1 27
Level 2 1
Level 3 0
Level 4 0
Level 5 0
Squads Dispatched 64
Investigation 32
Extermination 23
Reinforcement 9
Assault 0
Exploration Rate (%) 33
Regions Visited 12
Turns Passed 25462
Depth 11 164
Depth 10 914
Depth 9 2177
Depth 8 826
Depth 7 1362
Depth 6 3716
Depth 5 2003
Depth 4 1133
Depth 3 1916
Depth 2 2591
Depth 1 8660
Scrapyard 164
Materials 2555
Factory 8214
Research 4507
Access 8660
Storage 1362
Prototype IDs
---------------
Heavy Dispersion Rifle
Improved Lightning Gun
Improved Assault Rifle
Anti-matter Cannon
Point Singularity Launcher
Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
Experimental Signal Interpreter
Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None
Game
------
Seed: 1442668386
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 255 min
Sessions: 26
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 70
ASCII: 0
Keyboard: 1
Font: 12/Cogmind
Map View: 76x56
X=9831095588351967092162156792
011350723903142441201154553255
672351422541407505149064496295
295457552900693702607220744172
550403995699965660704256656269
635706445994141144444293956334
572744962660101242416349405001
431099730267599041241151136909
033472141242491374656152645901
463231175199206412399291142231
265151140709961537479545401477
064172972904150341242201142141
245151142141241151142141240034
562141241290945044991155242141
241151142140551692153151241151
144041243272624134555969255902
040191330405145504496302453001
756702979963950303072039414005
206524230562241335233569670209
617739146340000931579149649914
24093937
Quote from: zxc on September 19, 2015, 09:53:53 PM
Dying to know what the secret is. Getting through research painlessly is something that eludes everyone else, including myself.
.....Stack EM weapons ....?
Winner winner chicken dinner.
In a funny sense I've come full circle. When I first started cogmind, my favorite thing to find in storage was advanced emp blasters. I'd sometimes equip 3 and run around 1 shotting things including carriers. And then I met programmers and learned of their resistance to em weapon and drastically cut down on my em usage. Relatedly, hunters have been giving me huge troubles. Run ending troubles. These things are interconnected.
My weapon load out normally was a kinetic and 2 thermals or the inverse. I figured thermals were a good choice because nothing resists them. True enough, but nothing is vulnerable to them either. Looking at this chart real carefully inspired me to change my foolish ways:
http://www.gridsagegames.com/forums/index.php?topic=259.0
Here's how I changed my build. Around mid factory, this run I used 2 kinetic weapons and 2 em weapons. Against grunts, they're vulnerable to all 4 guns. They would usually get one shot. Against terminators, I would sub out 1 kinetic for a spare em weapon and turn off the other kinetic. With one swap, I have a 3 shot volley he's weak to. With programmers, I do the reverse: switch to one kinetic weapon, turn off the em gun. By only shooting at enemies with weapons they're weak to, I was one shotting tons of fools even in factory. Best defense is a good offense; having fights end about twice as fast allowed me to build up a good utility set up and take control.
2 other changes. One, whenever I got programmer alerts in Research I would move to single tile corridors when possible and wait. It prevented getting swarmed. Two, I would position myself so I could tell which direction they were coming from. This helped me accurately guess where the stairs were pretty easily.
I don't think I purged alert once after -5 or so. By moving fast, I avoided the consequences of tons of squads coming down. When they did, I'd blast em with aoe weapons.
Are EM weapons OP? I don't think so, but will admit they're def the best weapons. Also, I think that EM usage will be reflected in scores. I imagine that if more robots go down to corruption rather than being killed the normally way, that will have a depressive effect on the score.
I think thermal weapons are underpowered. I didn't use thermal at all this round, didn't pick up thermal guns. In the current state of the game, I think a thermal weapon should only be used out of desperation. The change to make programmers heat vulnerable will give them a nice oomph.
Spoiler
Access is definitely bugged. No reinforcements, no programmer spawns, nothing. This made life much easier. I think I could've won even with normal enemy conditions, but who knows.
Also, the singularity launcher might be the best thing ever.
K, speaking as someone who's exclusively played roguelikes since 2002, I think this is the best roguelike I've ever played.
e: oh man I really, really, really hope I hold on to the Heavy Metal award.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 20, 2015, 04:45:42 AM
LOCATION = SURFACE
GOAL = ACCOMPLISHED
LRC-V3 codenamed "Happylisk" has left the building.
Spoiler
Cogmind - Alpha 3c
Name: Happylisk
---[ ESCAPED! ]---
Performance
-------------
Evolutions (9) 4500
Robots Destroyed (319) 1595
Value Destroyed (14896) 14896
Prototype IDs (8) 160
Alien Tech Identified (0) 0
Bonus (2000) 2000
TOTAL SCORE: 23151
Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity 1347/1600
Matter 290/300
Energy 1293/1300
System Corruption 7%
Temperature Cool (4)
Location Surface
Parts
-------
Power (3)
Quantum Reactor
Quantum Reactor
Quantum Reactor
Propulsion (2)
Improved Heavy Treads
Utility (15)
Energy Well
Advanced Targeting Computer
Layered Light Armor Plating
Large Storage Unit
Large Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
Advanced Heat Sink
Heavy Armor Plating
Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Advanced Force Field
Advanced Cooling System
Improved Utility Shielding
Weapon (5)
Heavy Disruptor Cannon
Multirail
Compact HERF Cannon
Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
Inventory
-----------
Quantum Reactor
Improved Heavy Treads
Heavy Disruptor Cannon
Compact HERF Cannon
Compact HERF Cannon
Railgun
Railgun
Railgun
Linear Accelerator
Linear Accelerator
Micro-nuke Launcher
Point Singularity Launcher
Point Singularity Launcher
Guided Micro-nuke Launcher
Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
Advanced Heat Sink
Advanced Heat Sink
High-capacity Storage Unit
Matter Compressor
Energy Mantle
Improved Targeting Computer
Hacking Suite
Advanced Hacking Suite
Railgun
Peak State
------------
Power
Quantum Reactor
Quantum Reactor
Quantum Reactor
Propulsion
Improved Heavy Treads
Utility
Advanced Heat Sink
Reflective Medium Armor
Energy Well
Large Storage Unit
Large Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
Advanced Targeting Computer
Advanced Force Field
Medium Storage Unit
Advanced Cloaking Device
Advanced Cooling System
Insulated Heavy Armor
Advanced Cloaking Device
Layered Medium Armor Plating
Weapon
Gamma Rifle
Railgun
Gamma Rifle
Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
[Rating: 153]
Favorites
-----------
Power Quantum Reactor
Engine Light Angular Momentum Engine
Power Core Micro Fission Core
Reactor Quantum Reactor
Propulsion Medium Treads
Treads Medium Treads
Leg Aluminum Leg
Utility High-capacity Storage Unit
Device Advanced Heat Sink
Storage High-capacity Storage Unit
Processor Advanced Targeting Computer
Hackware Hacking Suite
Protection Reflective Medium Armor
Weapon Gamma Rifle
Energy Gun Gamma Rifle
Energy Cannon HERF Cannon
Ballistic Gun Railgun
Ballistic Cannon Light Cannon
Launcher Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
Special Weapon Improved Plasma Cutter
Stats
-------
Classes Destroyed 15
Worker 22
Builder 19
Tunneler 2
Hauler 1
Recycler 17
Mechanic 1
Operator 4
Watcher 5
Swarmer 55
Grunt 92
Brawler 1
Duelist 4
Sentry 29
Hunter 18
Programmer 49
NPCs Destroyed 0
Best Kill Streak 10
Combat Bots Only 7
Matter Collected 12142
Salvage Created 16762
Parts Attached 558
Power 63
Propulsion 35
Utility 249
Weapon 211
Parts Lost 154
Power 15
Propulsion 12
Utility 85
Weapon 42
Average Slot Usage (%) 92
Naked Turns 5
Spaces Moved 10385
Fastest Speed (%) 200
Slowest Speed (%) 9
Overloaded Moves 0
Propulsion Burnouts 0
Targets Rammed 2
Cave-ins Triggered 1
Teleports 0
Heaviest Build 214
Greatest Overweight (x) 67
Average Overweight (x) 1
Largest Inventory 46
Most Items Carried 42
Average Items Carried 27
Core Damage Taken 1992
Volleys Fired 830
Largest 5
Hottest 349
Shots Fired 2019
Gun 1284
Cannon 608
Launcher 123
Special 4
Kinetic 1024
Thermal 94
Explosive 57
Electromagnetic 844
Shots Hit Robots 1293
Core Hits 664
Overload Shots 0
Energy Bleed 0
Heat Surge 0
Short Circuit 0
Meltdown 0
Melee Attacks 0
Impact 0
Slashing 0
Piercing 0
Damage Inflicted 44728
Projectiles 34626
Explosions 10091
Melee 0
Ramming 11
Highest Temperature 506
Average Temperature 62
Shutdowns 5
Energy Bleed 1
Interference 4
Matter Decay 0
Short Circuit 1
Damage (minor) 1
Damage (major) 4
Damage (core) 0
Highest Corruption 38
Message Errors 102
Parts Rejected 35
Data loss (map) 140
Data loss (database) 97
Misfires 30
Misdirections 47
Targeting Errors 124
Weapon Failures 28
Haulers Intercepted 1
Robots Corrupted 56
Robots Melted 8
Tactical Retreats 15
Communications Jammed 0
Parts Field Recycled 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Merge Repaired 0
Drone Launches 14
Drone Recoveries 0
Derelicts Assembled 0
Traps Triggered 3
Indirectly 3
Trap Hack Attempts 0
Triggered 0
Disarmed 0
Reprogrammed 0
Reused 0
Machine Familiarity 39
Terminals 27
Fabricators 6
Repair Stations 3
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 3
Machines Hacked 39
Terminals 27
Fabricators 6
Repair Stations 3
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 3
Total Hacks 120
Successful 26
Failed 94
Catastrophic 31
Database Lockouts 0
Manual 71
Terminals 77
Fabricators 18
Repair Stations 12
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 13
Terminal Hacks 6
Record 0
Part Schematic 0
Robot Schematic 0
Robot Analysis 0
Prototype ID Bank 1
Open Door 1
Level Access Points 1
Branch Access Points 0
Emergency Access Points 0
Machine Index 0
Terminal Index 0
Fabricator Index 0
Repair Station Index 0
Recycling Unit Index 0
Scanalyzer Index 0
Alert Level 0
Unreport Threat 3
Locate Traps 0
Disarm Traps 0
Reprogram Traps 0
Dispatch Records 0
Maintenance Status 0
Security Status 0
Surveillance Status 0
Patrol Status 0
Transport Status 0
Investigation Status 0
Extermination Status 0
Reinforcement Status 0
Assault Status 0
Recall Investigation 0
Recall Extermination 0
Recall Reinforcements 0
Recall Assault 0
Hauler Manifests 0
Registered Components 0
Registered Prototypes 0
Zone Layout 0
Sector Layout 0
Machine Controls 0
Hacking Detections 44
Full Trace Events 32
Feedback Events 3
Feedback Corruption 3
Feedback Part Disabled 0
Feedback Blocked 0
Robot Schematics Acquired 0
Robots Built 0
Total Robot Build Rating 0
Robot Fabrication Matter 0
Robot Fabrication Time 0
Part Schematics Acquired 1
Parts Built 4
Total Part Build Rating 4
Part Fabrication Matter 80
Part Fabrication Time 240
Parts Repaired 2
Part Repair Time 75
Parts Recycled 0
Recycled Matter 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Scanalyzed 3
Part Schematics Acquired 1
Parts Damaged 0
Robot Analysis Total 0
Robots Rewired 0
Robots Hacked 0
Non-combat 0
Combat 0
Parse 0
Link 0
Rebooted 0
Overloaded 0
Assimilated 0
Manual 0
Secondary 0
Robot Hack Failures 0
Allies Hacked 0
Hacks Repelled 0
Total Allies 42
Largest Group 10
Highest-Rated Group 55
Highest-Rated Ally 10
Total Orders 15
STAY 0
GOTO 1
ROAM 0
FOLLOW 0
GUARD 0
AID 0
BUILD 0
TUNNEL 0
DROP 0
PICKUP 0
COLLECT 0
EXPLORE 14
RETURN 0
Terraforming Orders 0
Walls Built 0
Walls Tunneled 0
Ally Attacks 61
Total Damage 615
Kills 9
Allies Corrupted 1
Allies Melted 0
Peak Influence 422
Average Influence 137
Maximum Alert Level 2
Low Security (%) 71
Level 1 27
Level 2 1
Level 3 0
Level 4 0
Level 5 0
Squads Dispatched 64
Investigation 32
Extermination 23
Reinforcement 9
Assault 0
Exploration Rate (%) 33
Regions Visited 12
Turns Passed 25462
Depth 11 164
Depth 10 914
Depth 9 2177
Depth 8 826
Depth 7 1362
Depth 6 3716
Depth 5 2003
Depth 4 1133
Depth 3 1916
Depth 2 2591
Depth 1 8660
Scrapyard 164
Materials 2555
Factory 8214
Research 4507
Access 8660
Storage 1362
Prototype IDs
---------------
Heavy Dispersion Rifle
Improved Lightning Gun
Improved Assault Rifle
Anti-matter Cannon
Point Singularity Launcher
Enhanced Gamma Bomb Array
Experimental Signal Interpreter
Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None
Game
------
Seed: 1442668386
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 255 min
Sessions: 26
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 70
ASCII: 0
Keyboard: 1
Font: 12/Cogmind
Map View: 76x56
X=9831095588351967092162156792
011350723903142441201154553255
672351422541407505149064496295
295457552900693702607220744172
550403995699965660704256656269
635706445994141144444293956334
572744962660101242416349405001
431099730267599041241151136909
033472141242491374656152645901
463231175199206412399291142231
265151140709961537479545401477
064172972904150341242201142141
245151142141241151142141240034
562141241290945044991155242141
241151142140551692153151241151
144041243272624134555969255902
040191330405145504496302453001
756702979963950303072039414005
206524230562241335233569670209
617739146340000931579149649914
24093937
Hell yeah! Congrats!
Quote from: Happylisk on September 20, 2015, 05:06:05 AM
Quote from: zxc on September 19, 2015, 09:53:53 PM
Dying to know what the secret is. Getting through research painlessly is something that eludes everyone else, including myself.
.....Stack EM weapons ....?
Winner winner chicken dinner.
Scattershot approach works! I do much the same thing as you were doing this run ie. swapping weapons a lot based on enemies being faced, ever since I came up with that table. Glad that helped it click for you!
Quote from: Happylisk on September 20, 2015, 05:06:05 AM
2 other changes. One, whenever I got programmer alerts in Research I would move to single tile corridors when possible and wait. It prevented getting swarmed. Two, I would position myself so I could tell which direction they were coming from. This helped me accurately guess where the stairs were pretty easily.
That waiting thing also clicked for me recently. But do you know for sure that programmer dispatches come from an exit? That's an excellent method of finding the exit if that's the case.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 20, 2015, 05:06:05 AM
K, speaking as someone who's exclusively played roguelikes since 2002, I think this is the best roguelike I've ever played.
That's high praise given how much DCSS you've played! I'm not quite ready to give up the top spot just yet, but it's second by a long way for me. :)
Quote from: Happylisk on September 20, 2015, 05:06:05 AM
e: oh man I really, really, really hope I hold on to the Heavy Metal award.
I'd challenge you for it but I don't have a clue what it's for. Maybe something related to heavy armour? Maybe something to do with being highest mass over support capacity? I'm a metalhead myself so I feel I should be up there too. :P
I'm going to try a bit of a turncount speedrun before the end of the tournament. I'd do it now but I'm suddenly really busy. Hopefully I will have some time before the end.
Quote from: zxc on September 20, 2015, 05:25:42 AM
That waiting thing also clicked for me recently. But do you know for sure that programmer dispatches come from an exit? That's an excellent method of finding the exit if that's the case.
I'm 99% sure programmers come from the stairs. Besides looking out for the direction they came from, I also see how long it takes them to get to me. Once I had programmers on me about 25 turns after the message, letting me know the exit was close.
I think Heavy metal awards heaviest average build. I'm a metalhead too so it'll be in good hands if I can keep it :D
Here's a very interesting thing from my run:
Maximum Alert Level 2
Low Security (%) 71
Level 1 27
Level 2 1
Level 3 0
Level 4 0
Level 5 0
That's... crazy. I'm not sure how to explain that. I think I only did 3 alert purges total. Does going into Waste reduce the alert level? I deliberately went there twice.
By way of comparison, here's zxc's alert level from his winning combat run:
Maximum Alert Level 3
Low Security (%) 46
Level 1 25
Level 2 25
Level 3 2
Level 4 0
Level 5 0
Slightly higher than mine, and with 10 alert purges. I'm not sure what I did to keep the level low but clearly keeping the level no higher than 2 is key.
Question for K: Would the AI treat a robot being corrupted to death differently than a robot being blown up for security purposes?
We know that entering a new floor reduces the alert level. It's not clear whether this only applies to main floors (like evolutions) or all floors. It could be that entering the Waste twice contributed heavily towards reducing your alert level.
It could also be that your strategy of not getting bogged down in combat paid off with respect to influence.
In your winning combat run, you corrupted 11 enemy robots to death. I corrupted 56. I suspect this is what kept the alert level low (and if I'm right, corrupting an enemy to death should probably bother the AI more). I could be wrong though, and maybe it was Waste.
Also, minor bug: the scoresheet does not say how long you spent in waste, unlike other branches.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 20, 2015, 06:02:51 AM
In your winning combat run, you corrupted 11 enemy robots to death. I corrupted 56. I suspect this is what kept the alert level low (and if I'm right, corrupting an enemy to death should probably bother the AI more). I could be wrong though, and maybe it was Waste.
Also, minor bug: the scoresheet does not say how long you spent in waste, unlike other branches.
Oh my. That's a lot of corruption. If there's an achievement for that, you're no doubt
way in front of everyone there. I suspect enemies defeated by system corruption also don't get added to your score. I think enemies defeated by system melting and system corruption ought to count in exactly the same way as those defeated by regular destruction, particularly regarding alert level and score.
Also I just realised that there are now three players each for combat and stealth wins.
Yay, congrats Happylisk! And thank you for proving that full EM might be somewhat OP at the end ;) (Even just being "definitely the best" still hints that some re-balancing is in order--good point about the score, though. I won't take any drastic measures here.). Sounds like you had a really sound strategy going there on top of that, though.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 20, 2015, 05:06:05 AM
Two, I would position myself so I could tell which direction they were coming from. This helped me accurately guess where the stairs were pretty easily.
Ah you figured this strategy out. I was wondering when someone would notice ;)
Quote from: Happylisk on September 20, 2015, 05:06:05 AM
I think thermal weapons are underpowered. I didn't use thermal at all this round, didn't pick up thermal guns. In the current state of the game, I think a thermal weapon should only be used out of desperation. The change to make programmers heat vulnerable will give them a nice oomph.
Yeah, that's part of the intent there--it needs another boost or two. Thermal is obviously at a bit of a disadvantage since it drains power you'd rather be spending on other things regardless of your build; this despite its multiple existing advantages.
Causing meltdowns was another mechanic aimed at improving thermal viability, but it has been difficult to properly balance that since hostile robots don't have very stable heat levels so it'll generally be either too easy or too difficult to melt them. That will require a little more testing, but I know Programmers will be weak against thermal and that will mix things up.
Spoiler
Quote from: Happylisk on September 20, 2015, 05:06:05 AM
Access is definitely bugged. No reinforcements, no programmer spawns, nothing. This made life much easier. I think I could've won even with normal enemy conditions, but who knows.
Yep, I didn't realize the squads had no way to get into that map! It will definitely get more difficult, but not significantly more so than Researcher due to the other factors discussed earlier.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 20, 2015, 05:06:05 AM
K, speaking as someone who's exclusively played roguelikes since 2002, I think this is the best roguelike I've ever played.
You're not leaving much room for improvement there :)
Well, I've hooked you and quite a few other people; next up is to make the game simply irresistible on many more levels and expand that audience to ensure financial success and make sure the sequel is just as awesome (no, let's not talk about that now :P). Lots of work to do!
Quote from: zxc on September 20, 2015, 05:25:42 AM
That's high praise given how much DCSS you've played! I'm not quite ready to give up the top spot just yet, but it's second by a long way for me. :)
I'l take second to DCSS ;). That game is awesome (and created by a zillion talented individuals), as are many of the major roguelikes. Different players just get into different games, too, and I'm sure Cogmind can easily fill some voids since there isn't really anything like it.
Quote from: zxc on September 20, 2015, 05:25:42 AM
I'd challenge you for it but I don't have a clue what it's for. Maybe something related to heavy armour? Maybe something to do with being highest mass over support capacity? I'm a metalhead myself so I feel I should be up there too.
zxc with his scattershot approach again :). I believe I recall from looking over the complete achievement values this morning that Happylisk is far in the lead on that one.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 20, 2015, 05:44:33 AM
Question for K: Would the AI treat a robot being corrupted to death differently than a robot being blown up for security purposes?
Hm, because the game doesn't track what sources caused corruption (as it's an indirect form of damage that can come from many different origins and accumulate over time--more difficult to accurately track), I'll admit here that corrupted robots are ignored by the AI. So that was working in your favor (and may be a clue that EM weapons are too good--I may add a tracking system for at least primary corruption sources after all). However, I will say from look at your data that it wasn't the sole contributing factor to your low security level.
Quote from: zxc on September 20, 2015, 07:18:42 AM
I think enemies defeated by system melting and system corruption ought to count in exactly the same way as those defeated by regular destruction, particularly regarding alert level and score.
I'll look into expanding the system to include both. Holding a tournament and getting everyone (especially myself) closely examining scoring and score sheets has made quite a few meaningful discoveries.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 20, 2015, 06:02:51 AM
Also, minor bug: the scoresheet does not say how long you spent in waste, unlike other branches.
Very odd. It appears to be working normally for some players. I do see it's missing from your winning record and you say you visited it so it really should be listed. Not sure why that would happen. It was just added to the system for the most recent release, the first new map area since the first alpha, and while it seemed like it was working fine maybe I forgot something? Thanks for letting me know; I'll investigate.
Quote from: zxc on September 17, 2015, 02:48:15 AM
The morgue file:
Spoiler
Cogmind - Alpha 3c
Name: zzxc
---[ ESCAPED! ]---
Peak State
------------
Power
Light Quantum Reactor
Light Quantum Reactor
Particle Reactor
Propulsion
Improved Heavy Treads
Utility
Advanced Powered Armor
Advanced Target Analyzer
Advanced Heat Sink
High-capacity Storage Unit
Large Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
Experimental Energy Well
Advanced Force Field
Large Storage Unit
EM Shield
Advanced Cooling System
Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Long-range Tractor Beam
Weapon
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
[Rating: 169]
I mean, what does that even look like?
I don't know, but I had a go:
Spoiler
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/66536185/cogmind.png)
Quote from: mendonca on September 20, 2015, 03:31:28 PM
Quote from: zxc on September 17, 2015, 02:48:15 AM
The morgue file:
Spoiler
Cogmind - Alpha 3c
Name: zzxc
---[ ESCAPED! ]---
Peak State
------------
Power
Light Quantum Reactor
Light Quantum Reactor
Particle Reactor
Propulsion
Improved Heavy Treads
Utility
Advanced Powered Armor
Advanced Target Analyzer
Advanced Heat Sink
High-capacity Storage Unit
Large Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
Experimental Energy Well
Advanced Force Field
Large Storage Unit
EM Shield
Advanced Cooling System
Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Long-range Tractor Beam
Weapon
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
[Rating: 169]
I mean, what does that even look like?
I don't know, but I had a go:
Spoiler
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/66536185/cogmind.png)
Bahahaha! It's overweight on those little treads and everything. I love it! You're a fantastic artist!
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 15, 2015, 09:30:11 PM
Also, Reiver why aren't you in the Challenge?
Because I've been eaten alive by work and illness simultaneously. I'll be starting my first run of the new alpha... um... tonight.
I guess there'll be a participation medal in it for me if I play really quickly...
Quote from: mendonca on September 20, 2015, 03:31:28 PM
Quote from: zxc on September 17, 2015, 02:48:15 AM
The morgue file:
Spoiler
Cogmind - Alpha 3c
Name: zzxc
---[ ESCAPED! ]---
Peak State
------------
Power
Light Quantum Reactor
Light Quantum Reactor
Particle Reactor
Propulsion
Improved Heavy Treads
Utility
Advanced Powered Armor
Advanced Target Analyzer
Advanced Heat Sink
High-capacity Storage Unit
Large Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
High-capacity Storage Unit
Experimental Energy Well
Advanced Force Field
Large Storage Unit
EM Shield
Advanced Cooling System
Layered Heavy Armor Plating
Long-range Tractor Beam
Weapon
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
Multirail
[Rating: 169]
I mean, what does that even look like?
I don't know, but I had a go:
Spoiler
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/66536185/cogmind.png)
Whoa, best Cogmind fan art I've seen so far! Requesting permission to pass it along :D
Quote from: Reiver on September 20, 2015, 06:55:02 PM
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 15, 2015, 09:30:11 PM
Also, Reiver why aren't you in the Challenge?
Because I've been eaten alive by work and illness simultaneously. I'll be starting my first run of the new alpha... um... tonight.
I guess there'll be a participation medal in it for me if I play really quickly...
Aw, sorry to hear that. It's pretty easy to at least get in there since all you need is to make it to -9.
The last stats before The End. (After which will come more stats ;))
(https://i.imgur.com/Ahe7tHv.png)
Those are some cool stats. You may already be planning it, but I'd like to see avg score by depth (maybe along with max/min scores at each depth). That would tell us where score really starts to ramp up (I think it would be at -3). And perhaps (avg) max influence by depth. Avg/min/max turns at each depth would be sweet (might have to skip depths where the run ended). Run length (in real-time) by depth. I guess I'm just interested in stats by depth. :P
Hehe, data by depth is a fun to examine. Good suggestions! I'll see about doing those in my... copious spare time :)
That and some new types of graphs I wanted to start preparing are a few trends from throughout the event, though there are fewer interesting data points there. I'll also be reloading all the old graphs with new data from the Challenge as a whole.
Quote from: zxc on September 20, 2015, 04:30:45 PM
Bahahaha! It's overweight on those little treads and everything. I love it! You're a fantastic artist!
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 20, 2015, 09:24:05 PM
Whoa, best Cogmind fan art I've seen so far!
Thanks guys! :)
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 20, 2015, 09:24:05 PM
Requesting permission to pass it along :D
Of course, pass it wherever you must!
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 20, 2015, 09:59:19 PM
I'll also be reloading all the old graphs with new data from the Challenge as a whole.
Oh goodie, I did suspect you might do this, but I'm glad it's been confirmed.
I'm going to have a crack at improving my Best Escape score of 1.08 but no matter what, my stealth runs will lower my average score across all runs (currently 9.7k) :(
Heh, it might be tough to top that considering you don't know the formula and it's not only based on speed, but you can try (and perhaps give Happylisk a chance to take your 1337 title if he's having another go or two at high scores :P). Of course, you do currently hold
15 achievements already. (I'll admit 1337 is one of the most admirable, though.)
Quote from: mendonca on September 21, 2015, 01:12:30 AM
Oh goodie, I did suspect you might do this, but I'm glad it's been confirmed.
Sooo many stats.
Bugged start?
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/Nag6EJg.png)
No second power source at the scrapyard.
In theory it's not 100% guaranteed you'll have everything from the base set, though based on how it's handled I'd be very surprised if you don't get two power sources every time.
Assuming you don't drop one and it gets picked up by the Recycler, both should generally be lying around in the northwest quadrant of the room (though we obviously don't see it here). If you give me the seed when you're done I can look at why it wasn't placed. (Also, if it truly didn't place then there should be an error listed in your run.log file during map generation, to the effect of "...unable to place item '[name]', skipping.")
I just won that game. Morgue:
Spoiler
Cogmind - Alpha 3c
Name: zzxc
---[ ESCAPED! ]---
Performance
-------------
Evolutions (9) 4500
Robots Destroyed (46) 230
Value Destroyed (696) 696
Prototype IDs (6) 120
Alien Tech Identified (0) 0
Bonus (2000) 2000
TOTAL SCORE: 7546
Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity 1369/1600
Matter 39/300
Energy 1/50
System Corruption 7%
Temperature Cool (2)
Location Surface
Parts
-------
Power (4)
Propulsion (5)
Experimental Cesium-ion Thruster
Utility (14)
Long-range Sensor Array
Hacking Suite
Connection Mask
Improved Utility Shielding
Improved Utility Shielding
Weapon (2)
Point Singularity Launcher
Inventory
-----------
Advanced Sensor Array
Light Quantum Reactor
Peak State
------------
Power
Vortex Chain Reactor
Propulsion
Experimental Cesium-ion Thruster
Impulse Thruster Array
Impulse Thruster
Utility
Long-range Sensor Array
Decoy Generator
Hacking Suite
Connection Mask
Improved Utility Shielding
Improved Utility Shielding
Weapon
Chainsword
Point Singularity Launcher
[Rating: 83]
Favorites
-----------
Power Light Nuclear Core
Engine Light Ion Engine
Power Core Light Nuclear Core
Reactor Light Anti-Matter Reactor
Propulsion Flight Unit
Treads Improved Treads
Leg Aluminum Leg
Flight Unit Flight Unit
Utility Long-range Sensor Array
Device Long-range Sensor Array
Storage High-capacity Battery
Processor Advanced Signal Interpreter
Hackware Decoy Generator
Protection Hardened Light Armor Plating
Weapon Chainsword
Energy Gun EM Pulse Gun
Ballistic Gun Assault Rifle
Launcher Grenade Launcher
Slashing Weapon Chainsword
Special Melee Weapon Datajack
Stats
-------
Classes Destroyed 7
Worker 7
Builder 2
Hauler 3
Recycler 4
Watcher 1
Swarmer 28
Programmer 1
NPCs Destroyed 0
Best Kill Streak 7
Combat Bots Only 9
Matter Collected 1222
Salvage Created 1126
Parts Attached 83
Power 15
Propulsion 18
Utility 27
Weapon 23
Parts Lost 37
Power 8
Propulsion 11
Utility 13
Weapon 5
Average Slot Usage (%) 58
Naked Turns 29
Spaces Moved 3984
Fastest Speed (%) 909
Slowest Speed (%) 14
Overloaded Moves 0
Propulsion Burnouts 0
Targets Rammed 10
Cave-ins Triggered 0
Teleports 0
Heaviest Build 64
Greatest Overweight (x) 19
Average Overweight (x) 2
Largest Inventory 4
Most Items Carried 4
Average Items Carried 3
Core Damage Taken 1169
Volleys Fired 60
Largest 2
Hottest 60
Shots Fired 69
Gun 40
Cannon 0
Launcher 29
Special 0
Kinetic 9
Thermal 0
Explosive 29
Electromagnetic 31
Shots Hit Robots 79
Core Hits 77
Overload Shots 0
Energy Bleed 0
Heat Surge 0
Short Circuit 0
Meltdown 0
Melee Attacks 86
Impact 0
Slashing 85
Piercing 0
Damage Inflicted 4669
Projectiles 351
Explosions 2317
Melee 1974
Ramming 27
Highest Temperature 423
Average Temperature 108
Shutdowns 1
Energy Bleed 0
Interference 0
Matter Decay 0
Short Circuit 0
Damage (minor) 0
Damage (major) 0
Damage (core) 0
Highest Corruption 7
Message Errors 0
Parts Rejected 0
Data loss (map) 1
Data loss (database) 0
Misfires 0
Misdirections 0
Targeting Errors 1
Weapon Failures 0
Haulers Intercepted 3
Robots Corrupted 0
Robots Melted 1
Tactical Retreats 16
Communications Jammed 26
Parts Field Recycled 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Merge Repaired 0
Drone Launches 0
Drone Recoveries 0
Derelicts Assembled 0
Traps Triggered 0
Indirectly 0
Trap Hack Attempts 0
Triggered 0
Disarmed 0
Reprogrammed 0
Reused 0
Machine Familiarity 15
Terminals 15
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Machines Hacked 15
Terminals 15
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Total Hacks 42
Successful 9
Failed 33
Catastrophic 18
Database Lockouts 0
Manual 26
Terminals 42
Fabricators 0
Repair Stations 0
Recycling Units 0
Scanalyzers 0
Terminal Hacks 9
Record 3
Part Schematic 0
Robot Schematic 0
Robot Analysis 0
Prototype ID Bank 0
Open Door 0
Level Access Points 2
Branch Access Points 0
Emergency Access Points 0
Machine Index 0
Terminal Index 0
Fabricator Index 0
Repair Station Index 0
Recycling Unit Index 0
Scanalyzer Index 0
Alert Level 1
Unreport Threat 0
Locate Traps 1
Disarm Traps 1
Reprogram Traps 0
Dispatch Records 0
Maintenance Status 0
Security Status 0
Surveillance Status 0
Patrol Status 0
Transport Status 0
Investigation Status 0
Extermination Status 0
Reinforcement Status 0
Assault Status 0
Recall Investigation 0
Recall Extermination 0
Recall Reinforcements 0
Recall Assault 0
Hauler Manifests 0
Registered Components 0
Registered Prototypes 0
Zone Layout 1
Sector Layout 0
Machine Controls 0
Hacking Detections 16
Full Trace Events 13
Feedback Events 0
Feedback Corruption 0
Feedback Part Disabled 0
Feedback Blocked 0
Robot Schematics Acquired 0
Robots Built 0
Total Robot Build Rating 0
Robot Fabrication Matter 0
Robot Fabrication Time 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Built 0
Total Part Build Rating 0
Part Fabrication Matter 0
Part Fabrication Time 0
Parts Repaired 0
Part Repair Time 0
Parts Recycled 0
Recycled Matter 0
Retrieved Matter 0
Parts Scanalyzed 0
Part Schematics Acquired 0
Parts Damaged 0
Robot Analysis Total 0
Robots Rewired 0
Robots Hacked 0
Non-combat 0
Combat 0
Parse 0
Link 0
Rebooted 0
Overloaded 0
Assimilated 0
Manual 0
Secondary 0
Robot Hack Failures 0
Allies Hacked 0
Hacks Repelled 0
Total Allies 11
Largest Group 0
Highest-Rated Group 0
Highest-Rated Ally 0
Total Orders 0
STAY 0
GOTO 0
ROAM 0
FOLLOW 0
GUARD 0
AID 0
BUILD 0
TUNNEL 0
DROP 0
PICKUP 0
COLLECT 0
EXPLORE 0
RETURN 0
Terraforming Orders 0
Walls Built 0
Walls Tunneled 0
Ally Attacks 0
Total Damage 0
Kills 0
Allies Corrupted 0
Allies Melted 0
Peak Influence 201
Average Influence 30
Maximum Alert Level 1
Low Security (%) 99
Level 1 0
Level 2 0
Level 3 0
Level 4 0
Level 5 0
Squads Dispatched 23
Investigation 16
Extermination 1
Reinforcement 6
Assault 0
Exploration Rate (%) 19
Regions Visited 12
Turns Passed 1867
Depth 11 37
Depth 10 180
Depth 9 178
Depth 8 98
Depth 7 238
Depth 6 47
Depth 5 361
Depth 4 107
Depth 3 220
Depth 2 193
Depth 1 208
Scrapyard 37
Materials 424
Factory 753
Research 413
Access 208
Mines 32
Prototype IDs
---------------
Vortex Chain Reactor
Improved VTOL Module
Experimental Cesium-ion Thruster
Point Singularity Launcher
Precision Energy Filter
Advanced Particle Charger
Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None
Game
------
Seed: 1442832102
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 81 min
Sessions: 2
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 26
ASCII: 1
Keyboard: 0
Font: 18/Terminus
Map View: 76x50
X=9904511650319173724979788917
879824877932478297232727224789
219898832797972347742824144281
749722299224989197797978737772
777971972978777797777777777727
777777799797777777777797787777
777797777777777779797728777779
777777777779997977778779877777
217779877874922182777739397779
393977777779778777879977797779
772779777797792874872192928937
177773474479777221292189171877
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177121843328994222828497924782
988897279489728227487937828399
721277791728773277787773777897
717712728777737122
It was seed 1442832102. 81 min and my fastest turncount win at 1867 turns. I tried to focus on speed and not stealth but it was tough. We'll see if turncount is important for the best escape score. Of course there are other factors I know, but I've wanted to try to copy Biomatter's fast wins anyway (~ 1k turncount). I think the game is harder now than in those versions (speed bug fixed, traps, etc) so I think it was a decent run. I took a lot of core damage though, because I was brute-forcing it with speed and also spent a while almost-naked early on. I also had to wait out a lot of turns due to having no heat dissipation.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 21, 2015, 04:45:45 AM
Heh, it might be tough to top that considering you don't know the formula and it's not only based on speed, but you can try (and perhaps give Happylisk a chance to take your 1337 title if he's having another go or two at high scores :P).
Unfortunately I think I'm done for the tournie. I'd love to play more, but I think my very patient ladyfriend has had enough of watching me play cogmind for now ;) Plus, my only goal was to get a win which was nice. Now, I want to begin exploring how to integrate allies into a combat run. I'll wait for the tournament to be over to begin that experiment.
Don't think it'll be possible to snatch 1337 from zxc either. With the gap between us, a good run to Research wouldn't do it. I'd have to get a big fat win to close the gap (and that's a 3-4 hour investment right there).
I was hoping to get more achievements, but heaviest, most corrupting, and most corrupted seems rather appropriate for me given how I play.
E: Congrats zxc! It's interesting looking at a stealth log after knowing the game better. 99% low security level, only 29 combat robots killed. So different. Also, there are so many items in this game I've probably never seen. Vortex Chain reactor? Sounds awesome.
2 games ago, I found this advanced coolant network or something like that, that was a 2 utility slot item that did something insane like -90 heat per turn or so. Give me 2 of those and 4 nova cannons any day of the week.
Quote from: Happylisk on September 21, 2015, 06:34:48 AM
Don't think it'll be possible to snatch 1337 from zxc either. With the gap between us, a good run to Research wouldn't do it. I'd have to get a big fat win to close the gap (and that's a 3-4 hour investment right there).
If you did I'd just go and win another combat run. :P I do want that achievement. The other achievements the rest of you can fight over, but 1337 is mine. :)
Quote from: Happylisk on September 21, 2015, 06:34:48 AM
E: Congrats zxc! It's interesting looking at a stealth log after knowing the game better. 99% low security level, only 29 combat robots killed. So different. Also, there are so many items in this game I've probably never seen. Vortex Chain reactor? Sounds awesome.
2 games ago, I found this advanced coolant network or something like that, that was a 2 utility slot item that did something insane like -90 heat per turn or so. Give me 2 of those and 4 nova cannons any day of the week.
Honestly it wasn't a stealth run. I made almost no attempt at stealth. It was an equip-flight-units-and-beeline-to-the-exits run. Got into a LOT of nasty situations. Do not try this at home. Also I'm convinced that there is a fairly common trap formation where there are stasis traps placed in front of a behemoth in the late-game. I've gotten caught in front of a behemoth far too many times to be just coincidence.
Vortex Chain Reactor is the best power source I've seen in the game so far. Screenshot:
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/J23KfE7.png)
I got the coolant network on one of my failed combat runs. It was pretty swell. You can see it in action here (I died on this floor):
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/TvFfZr4.png)
Whoa, that's a fast win, zxc. It's hard to do a direct comparison with the difficulty of Alpha 1, since some things have gotten harder (traps, speed bug fixed) and some easier (smaller squad sizes and lower Programmer frequency).
Thanks for playing and joining the discussions, Happylisk. And for pulling off a win :D. Take a well-deserved break so you don't get banned from Cogmind :P. I'll still be here chugging along for quite some time...
Quote from: zxc on September 21, 2015, 06:37:24 AM
Also I'm convinced that there is a fairly common trap formation where there are stasis traps placed in front of a behemoth in the late-game. I've gotten caught in front of a behemoth far too many times to be just coincidence.
No, you're just lucky like that ;)
...hm, now that you mention it, on closer examination the distribution mechanics do make that combination somewhat likely. It wasn't intentional, but I like it 8)
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 21, 2015, 07:20:30 AM
Whoa, that's a fast win, zxc. It's hard to do a direct comparison with the difficulty of Alpha 1, since some things have gotten harder (traps, speed bug fixed) and some easier (smaller squad sizes and lower Programmer frequency).
My money's on a turncount speedrun being tougher in this version than Alpha 1. However, in that run I didn't get a programmer squad sent after me even once all game. I guess it was because I was speeding through the levels and not wasting time.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 21, 2015, 07:20:30 AM
...hm, now that you mention it, on closer examination the distribution mechanics do make that combination somewhat likely. It wasn't intentional, but I like it 8)
You're a bastard. I hope you know that.
I'm on eight wins now and counting (five during this challenge). I'm collecting them now! One question: does turns passed consider 1 action = 1 turn, or 100 time = 1 turn? Also, how does move speed interact with breaking stasis? Do you break out of stasis 10x faster at 10 move delay than you do with 100 move delay? Or are breaking attempts all the same length of time regardless of propulsion?
Edit: The scoreboard never updates when you want it to. I really want to know whether my last run improved on 1.08. Also, these are fantastically odd scores. I wonder if you did something like score = (1000 / turns) + (3000 / core damage taken) + (highscore / 20000) etc. with a bunch of factors like that.
Edit2: Yay. 2.02 score. So it seems the best escape algorithm loves low turn counts. :P My 1337 achievement score took a hit but it should be OK. I'm not in the top 3 for Against All Odds though, which I find strange because I managed to escape with this peak setup (and even this is inflated because I couldn't move with the launcher equipped, and other than the sensors my utilities were mostly useless. Also the chainsword seems pathetically weak - maybe I just got unlucky with a ton of rolls but it compared unfavourably with stuff like katanas):
Spoiler
Peak State
------------
Power
Vortex Chain Reactor
Propulsion
Experimental Cesium-ion Thruster
Impulse Thruster Array
Impulse Thruster
Utility
Long-range Sensor Array
Decoy Generator
Hacking Suite
Connection Mask
Improved Utility Shielding
Improved Utility Shielding
Weapon
Chainsword
Point Singularity Launcher
[Rating: 83]
Quote from: zxc on September 21, 2015, 07:30:07 AM
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 21, 2015, 07:20:30 AM
Whoa, that's a fast win, zxc. It's hard to do a direct comparison with the difficulty of Alpha 1, since some things have gotten harder (traps, speed bug fixed) and some easier (smaller squad sizes and lower Programmer frequency).
My money's on a turncount speedrun being tougher in this version than Alpha 1. However, in that run I didn't get a programmer squad sent after me even once all game. I guess it was because I was speeding through the levels and not wasting time.
Yep, when you're racing that fast, they don't have enough time to react.
Quote from: zxc on September 21, 2015, 07:30:07 AM
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 21, 2015, 07:20:30 AM
...hm, now that you mention it, on closer examination the distribution mechanics do make that combination somewhat likely. It wasn't intentional, but I like it 8)
You're a bastard. I hope you know that.
Requirement #1 for being a roguelike dev ;)
Quote from: zxc on September 21, 2015, 07:30:07 AM
I'm on eight wins now and counting (five during this challenge). I'm collecting them now! One question: does turns passed consider 1 action = 1 turn, or 100 time = 1 turn?
Ha, you are on quite a roll now. Turns passed is game turns, yes; not actions. (If it were the latter I'd definitely use that term. I will be adding Action Counts to the score sheet for the next release.)
Quote from: zxc on September 21, 2015, 07:30:07 AM
Also, how does move speed interact with breaking stasis? Do you break out of stasis 10x faster at 10 move delay than you do with 100 move delay? Or are breaking attempts all the same length of time regardless of propulsion?
An attempt is an action that takes 1 full turn regardless of your propulsion.
Quote from: zxc on September 21, 2015, 07:30:07 AM
Edit: The scoreboard never updates when you want it to. I really want to know whether my last run improved on 1.08. Also, these are fantastically odd scores. I wonder if you did something like score = (1000 / turns) + (3000 / core damage taken) + (highscore / 20000) etc. with a bunch of factors like that.
Edit2: Yay. 2.02 score. So it seems the best escape algorithm loves low turn counts. :P
I honestly didn't have enough data when coming up with the formula for Best Escapes--too few previous wins! Still, it works out fine because the aim was to emphasize turn count to make sure speed/stealth runs could have their place on the leaderboards since they'll obviously get beat out by score. Destruction still plays an important role, though, so if you can wreak more havoc
and get out faster you'd have a better escape rating. I would definitely redo the entire formula in the future if applicable to some event.
Quote from: zxc on September 21, 2015, 07:30:07 AM
I'm not in the top 3 for Against All Odds though, which I find strange because I managed to escape with this peak setup (and even this is inflated because I couldn't move with the launcher equipped, and other than the sensors my utilities were mostly useless.
A few of the achievements, including that one, are slightly more easily taken by less experienced players who manage to reach the mid-game by barely scraping by. I wouldn't call carrying a Vortex Chain Reactor and Point Singularity Launcher "barely scraping by" :P. There are players out there who are barely playing with prototypes, much less some of the most awesome gear you can find!
Quote from: zxc on September 21, 2015, 07:30:07 AM
Also the chainsword seems pathetically weak - maybe I just got unlucky with a ton of rolls but it compared unfavourably with stuff like katanas)
Musta just been unlucky, since it's a direct upgrade. (Also the slower/longer attack animation might make it feel a little weaker, whereas you can get repeated slashes off and see results more quickly in real time with a Katana.)
Quote from: zxc on September 21, 2015, 07:30:07 AM
Edit3: Also you can see here that this *4 rating flight unit is worse in every way compared to the *3 flight unit (I guess maybe the max integrity is better - that is the only explanation): Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/MTRQ27l.png)
I'll look into that one.
Bonus stats! (Day 12 isn't over yet, but I'm posting this now anyway.)
(https://i.imgur.com/Qm93CpX.png)
I found a problem with two records that were throwing off the play time and fixed those, so you'll see total play time fell from the previous stats. Also, the rather high Max play times you see in Materials are not errors--they're a few new players learning the game (stopping a lot, reading the manual, etc.), especially on -10.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 21, 2015, 09:16:26 AM
A few of the achievements, including that one, are slightly more easily taken by less experienced players who manage to reach the mid-game by barely scraping by. I wouldn't call carrying a Vortex Chain Reactor and Point Singularity Launcher "barely scraping by" :P. There are players out there who are barely playing with prototypes, much less some of the most awesome gear you can find!
That's very true. Still, by the standards I'm used to, it felt like I reached the Surface nude! Got better things to do than to pick up items!
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 21, 2015, 09:16:26 AM
Quote from: zxc on September 21, 2015, 07:30:07 AM
Edit3: Also you can see here that this *4 rating flight unit is worse in every way compared to the *3 flight unit (I guess maybe the max integrity is better - that is the only explanation): Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/MTRQ27l.png)
I'll look into that one.
I removed that edit after some thought because I suspect the reason is twofold: 1. most likely higher max integrity 2. the *4 one has burnout whereas the *3 one has burnout 0 which DISPLAYS as though it's better but it probably means it can't be overloaded.
Juicy stats, K!
Oh whoops. Yeah I hadn't looked in detail at the parts you were referring to. The ability to overload is a game-changer there--the whole reason for the difference ;)
More stats to come! Altogether too many, almost... but I'm having fun with them. I used to use Calc for my spreadsheets and for the Challenge just switched to Excel--the latter hands down blows the other one away. Putting together cool graphs is a breeze.
Well I'll be afk for a few days so I won't be able to do any more runs for the tournament. I really wish I could have squeezed out a win but it didn't happen. I only made it to access once and with limited options at that. I had some great fun runs though. Hopefully I'll stay on the high score board XD
Kyzrati your game is magnificent. It breathes more fresh air into a strictly traditional roguelike format than I ever would have thought possible.
Thank you
Thank YOU for supporting and playing, Agroesch. I thought you might've managed a win before time was up, but it's true combat runs through Research are a tough proposition that can turn on a dime unless you really stack the odds in your favor (just ask the EM / inventory hoarders :P). In any case it's unlikely the top 10 will do much more shuffling in this final day.
24 hours left everyone!
A few more achievement names and a couple definitions were revealed; last batch before the end when all is revealed and compiled :)
Well, I was putting together more graphs anyway, so may as well share them :D
(https://i.imgur.com/yoFbOn7.png)
I don't quite understand that Inventory Size graph. What's the X axis?
The x-axis is what I get for doing this in a hurry ;)
It was supposed to be depth, but I forgot to link that row to the chart so Excel just numbered them on its own. They're supposed to be -10 to 0 like the others, from left to right. It'll be fixed for the final version (and larger).
You silly billy. Also, I assume the max/avg/min refers to aggregates of the max inventory size of a run, while carried refers to the avg of the avg items carried in a run.
That chart was kinda slapped into that lonely corner without much explanation, either, yeah.
Max/avg/min all refer to the Largest Inventory but taken only at the point of death/winning because that's all we know. "Carried" is taken at the same point, using the average of everyone's Average Items Carried (so it's not super meaningful other than to tell us a lot of Cogmind's run around with near empty inventories for a while).
Dammit, I think I will not be able to achieve a single game :(
-6 at the moment, still running. But I should stop soon. Too bad
Thats it for me in the tournament. I've tried to get a place back in the top ten, but it seems that im more a quantitative player, not the qualitative one :D
Had some nice runs (and many bad ones), I've tried stealth and combat runs. Both went very bad in late factory/early research. I reach always a point where I run into Programmers or squads and that ends very bad.
Thx for the tournament, I really enjoyed it!
Yeah, It was an amazing tournament K, looking forward to more statistics to come!
;D
Full statistics coming next week!
You're welcome and glad you all enjoyed it :)
Chad: I noticed you playing a heck of a lot and taking a number of achievements. The last Factory floor is where the difficulty (once again) really ramps up, so that's a tough barrier. The top 10 ended up being pretty competitive with a lot of players reaching that same general area!
Quote from: Gobbopathe on September 22, 2015, 01:01:37 PM
-6 at the moment, still running. But I should stop soon. Too bad
You know you could just get yourself killed and that will still count as a game considering you've already made it so far! Still 1 hour remaining :D
I'm going to process the latest data in a moment.
Alpha Challenge 2015 is officially over... announcements, reward list, and a new results page coming shortly!
Alpha Challenge final results are here (http://www.gridsagegames.com/cogmind/events/AC2015/results.html), and prize list here (http://www.gridsagegames.com/forums/index.php?topic=276.0) :D
Congratulations and thank you for participating!
(Also, of course all the achievement names and descriptions have now been revealed :P)
Congratulations to the winners!!
There's some tough competition out there and it's been great to go through the forums and see some really amazing and thoughtful discussion. Awesome stuff, guys/gals!
Thanks for the well-run tournament, K! It was a lot of fun and I learnt a bunch too.
I think we all learned a lot!
Now to go back and fix the badge display so they show in rows instead of a single column. Some people have quite a few now :P
I do believe that all four of my runs for the entire competition were some of the worst ones I ever achieved. One of them barely got to its first evolution. ;D
Congrats to the folks at the other end of the spectrum!
very interested events to me, thanks Kyzrati
may2ever speaks!
Glad you enjoyed it as you silently worked your way up the leaderboards ;)
i'm not good at speak english so i just read posts
zxc, Happylisk posts are very useful information to me :)
Yep, thanks for dropping by to say hi!
Update: I've sent out all prize notices via email, except for three who aren't on the forums so I have no email address attached to the participant name: RoboCicero, Goodnews, and SEF. If any of you three happen to browse by here, be sure to contact me, though I do know where else to find RoboCicero if needed.
Chiming in to say that the tournament was a great idea & really fun - managed to get to Research for the first time, so hopefully escaping isn't too far away now!
I did notice that the "Deathwish" achievement went unclaimed - did no-one manage to kill an assembled? They certainly killed me more than once, but perhaps all the people who are skilled enough to take them on are also savvy enough to avoid the Mines completely!
Hey Oarsman! Thanks for stopping by, and good job :)
By now most players are avoiding the Mines, and are experienced enough to do so fairly reliably.
That said, I should've taken a closer look at that achievement and what was up with it because I made a discovery yesterday based on some oddities I noticed in a few score sheets--because Assembled are internally listed after another couple robots that aren't currently known by the score system, Assembled kills were getting tallied under a different type of robot none of you have seen before. That had me stumped--HOW are a few players managing to kill robots I haven't added to the game yet?!
And the second piece of the puzzle falls in to place... mystery solved. I'll update the data in a moment--someone's going to get another achievement :D
Psyha killed 14 Assembled before succumbing to them, and Tuxedo Knight took down 13 then made it all the way to -6 8)
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 22, 2015, 07:53:02 PM
You know you could just get yourself killed and that will still count as a game considering you've already made it so far! Still 1 hour remaining :D
Well actually I remember I just killed myself Alt + F10 in -11 after I finished recording my video. So I guess it is the only Gobbopathe's game you have in your database for this competition ;D
Maybe that kind of performance is one of the hidden achievements 8)
Nooooooooo... you're right, I see you have that 35 point run in among the files, which doesn't qualify. Should have finished that game earlier just for the heck of it. Oh well, maybe you can dominate the regular leaderboards for a bit?
Altogether there were about 250 non-qualifying games out of a total 900 runs. So you are in good company with many others who at least one time or another didn't do much but hang out in and around the scrapyard :P
Thanks for the tournament K! it was a lot of fun. Despite taking a break from playing Cogmind til Alpha 4, I've started work on my strategy guide for combat runs. Hopefully once the full game drops they'll be a nice and comprehensive guide for newbies.
Any idea when 4 will drop? I'm assuming that'll give us Caves.
Hi there. Thanks for the tournament (and the game!). I am looking forward to seeing it get better and better.
Is there some hidden rule that one needs to have an account on the forum to be featured on the prize list? Since the prizes are forum badges, that would make sense -- but having a name on the list is a prize in itself.
Anyway, I just created a forum account, so I can haz prize?
Quote from: Happylisk on September 23, 2015, 06:40:10 AM
Thanks for the tournament K! it was a lot of fun. Despite taking a break from playing Cogmind til Alpha 4, I've started work on my strategy guide for combat runs. Hopefully once the full game drops they'll be a nice and comprehensive guide for newbies.
Any idea when 4 will drop? I'm assuming that'll give us Caves.
A while back I was originally thinking Caves, but I think first we should have Extension, and the places that leads, because it's smaller and I can combine it with a bunch of other stuff discussed during the tournament. The Caves are going to be a pretty big production and need their own release, which wouldn't give me any time for this other stuff, so they should be Alpha 5 (and even then I'm not sure I can fit everything the caves will bring into a single release--there's a lot out there).
No date for 4 except "some time in October." It woulda been sooner if not for having to manage the tournament and everything surrounding it.
Having some more guides will be extremely useful for all the eventual green Cogminds we'll have. Not that it'll be soon, but technically there's a still-continuing steady trickle of fresh blood, and even right now a majority of players have trouble even making it half-way through the Factory.
Thanks for that, and thanks for playing :D
Quote from: ventricule on September 23, 2015, 07:34:52 AM
Hi there. Thanks for the tournament (and the game!). I am looking forward to seeing it get better and better.
And get better and better it will!
Quote from: ventricule on September 23, 2015, 07:34:52 AM
Is there some hidden rule that one needs to have an account on the forum to be featured on the prize list? Since the prizes are forum badges, that would make sense -- but having a name on the list is a prize in itself.
Whoops, you know what, there are no hidden rules, but apparently I didn't test the "final page generator" well enough before the end (just made it yesterday!), because it apparently left off a couple players! And just now I was wondering why I hadn't given you a badge, since I know you took an achievement... oops, I'll get on this right away (a few other achievements were dropped off the final list for some reason, too!). Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Edit: Everyone applicable should now be on the achievement list. Was missing three players :/
Ooh, not sure I've ever seen Extension (I tend not to pay attention to where locked branches go). I found the locked branch in Storage for the first time during my very last run. I imagine extension is somewhere in Factory. Looking forward!
edit with big spoilers:
Spoiler
I'd bet anything that wherever Extension is, beyond it is Complex 0b1.
.
Extension is off Factory, yeah, and you're less likely to see the entrance than Caves. And now that you mention it, I forgot that I'd also like to add that Storage branch, too (haven't been thinking about this as much over the past week).
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 22, 2015, 07:53:02 PM
(...)
Chad: I noticed you playing a heck of a lot and taking a number of achievements. The last Factory floor is where the difficulty (once again) really ramps up, so that's a tough barrier. The top 10 ended up being pretty competitive with a lot of players reaching that same general area!
(..)
Haha, yeah. I was very motivated to get back to the top10. And it's just another run ... or maybe two ... or... :D
I got some very bad runs, but my avarage score isn't that bad as it seems. And I got some very cool archivements 8)
I saw you got both Unstoppable and Generalissimo, pretty tough. For the latter I take it you visited Waste a couple times? Was that intentional, or did it "just happen"? :P
I would also like to chime in and say that the tournament was awesome! I had a blast.
Still haven't found my dang item yet though! ;D
Wish I could do these more often but it's too much work considering we still need a complete game :/
Very good job, Shobalk--so close to #3!
No comment on the item :P
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 23, 2015, 08:57:53 PM
I saw you got both Unstoppable and Generalissimo, pretty tough. For the latter I take it you visited Waste a couple times? Was that intentional, or did it "just happen"? :P
I few times I went to waste until I realized, that I get back to the level before, not one level above (silly me :D). Also, for a stealth run allies are not a very good idea (except drones).
But when I'm in a very bad situation (like lost all my parts and followed by a party of bad guys) I like to jump down to save my ass. With 200% speed and a bit of luck you can avoid the crushers and may get some new equipment and sometimes some new friends!
For the generalissimo achievement I don't know how I got it. Is it possible to get 41 allies in waste? I did I manage to get some friends at waste and find some drone bays? Don't know if the game counts all allies I had in the game or if he counts the maximum allies at the same time. I think it's the first case and I found some drone bays and later went to waste (for whatever reason).
Is the Waste where the chute traps lead? Because I entered that once or twice intentionally, as I found that if you are fast you can avoid the crushers quite easily and there's some cool stuff down there.
Quote from: Chad on September 24, 2015, 12:43:24 AM
For the generalissimo achievement I don't know how I got it. Is it possible to get 41 allies in waste? I did I manage to get some friends at waste and find some drone bays? Don't know if the game counts all allies I had in the game or if he counts the maximum allies at the same time. I think it's the first case and I found some drone bays and later went to waste (for whatever reason).
Ah yeah, Drone Bays would've helped there.
Spoiler
20 or more allies--if any--is what you generally find in Waste.
About that achievement, it was meant to be largest number of simultaneous allies, but while coding it I realized there is a problem in how the 3c release calculates that value for the score sheet, and I couldn't fix it without a new release so I had to switch the value to total allies across an entire run. I've corrected that and another few erroneous stat values for the next build.
Quote from: zxc on September 24, 2015, 12:58:58 AM
Is the Waste where the chute traps lead? Because I entered that once or twice intentionally, as I found that if you are fast you can avoid the crushers quite easily and there's some cool stuff down there.
Spoiler
Yep, that's where they lead, but you have to be willing to give up your progress in the current Factory map to go there :)
What I'd love to know (not sure if it would be spoilery) is if entering side-branches like the Waste reduces alert level. I get the impression that it does, based on what you've said before, K.
Of note: Waste is not a "branch," per se. It behaves very differently in a number of ways. (I imagine you know this, but will call it such for lack of an alternative term.) The future world map will make the differences between Waste and branches more apparent.
Great tournament! Can't wait for next one.
Congratulations to everyone that participated, and especially to zxc and his absolutely insane 30k+ scoring run! You achieved my dream, man.
Quote from: biomatter on September 28, 2015, 04:39:22 AM
Congratulations to everyone that participated, and especially to zxc and his absolutely insane 30k+ scoring run! You achieved my dream, man.
Thanks biomatter :)
I was a little disappointed that you weren't around for the event - I think I was just getting into Cogmind right around when you took a break. Hope you can rejoin us soon :)
Heh. Thank you for the kind words. Frankly, I'm not sure if I'll ever be back - I think the game just stresses me out too much!
I know that sounds dumb and it absolutely is a character flaw, but I lost my mind getting those first two wins, haha. Uh, Kyzrati can attest to that fact... Part loss just kills me inside and makes me feel helpless. In no other roguelike is managing inventory so life-sustaining and important (and this is an interesting thing, not a bad thing). I just take it too personally for some dumb reason.
When I first started I really wanted to compete hard with everyone, but it ended up consuming my time and mental health trying to stay ahead. I am in college now and just can't afford to get back into that state. I am glad I did not pit myself against you, zxc, haha! Gosh. I would've been miserable. I read a few of your threads and you seem to have a much better grasp of the game. Kudos on that.
I just dipped into the forums to congratulate the winners. Cogmind is an absolutely amazing roguelike but I am not sure anymore if it is for me.
Hey now, I just thought of something - if you want to do me a favor... Keep working on the wiki! So little work has been done on it since our initial burst. For example, nobody has updated the Lore page since I put in a ton of work in June! This is absolutely criminal and must be rectified immediately. Since the tourney is over surely someone can afford to spend a run or two adding to this, eh? Heh.
That's a fascinating piece of psychology there, as much as it is sad. :(
It really sucks when a game you normally enjoy becomes stressful enough to no longer be a positive experience. It's happened to me before with a few games: Frozen Synapse, correspondence chess, regular chess, competitive EU3 mp - mostly slower, competitive multiplayer games. I've also pretty much stopped playing DCSS because I'm in the middle of a long streak of wins and don't want to screw it up.
Regarding part loss in Cogmind: I feel it. When I was trying to get a combat win during the event, I felt like I was running against a brick wall over and over. These (http://www.gridsagegames.com/forums/index.php?topic=261.msg2221#msg2221) two (http://www.gridsagegames.com/forums/index.php?topic=261.msg2223#msg2223) posts I made were probably the height of my frustration. I think the only reason I kept going was because Happylisk and Agroesch were getting so close to their own victories.
Losing items in DCSS back when item destruction was around really sucked, but it's so much worse in Cogmind. I agree that the game largely revolves around inventory management, which is actually something I really hate in other games, but I don't mind it too much in Cogmind. There are always better parts around the corner. :)
What about those stealth/speed wins you did? I imagine you didn't lose many parts with that approach. Watchers are an endless supply of good utilities for that sort of build, and the only other critical items are flight units.
I've never been a big wiki contributor in other games, but the Cogmind wiki does need some love. I'd add to the Lore page if I had half a clue what the lore was about! I am slightly ashamed to admit I haven't read any of the story-related text in Cogmind, nor have I pondered too deeply Cogmind's existence and how he came to be - in the scrapyard. All of my focus has been on the game's mechanics. I certainly plan on catching up on the lore however.
Sorry to hear that biomatter, though I completely understand, especially after seeing what it was doing to you for those weeks of intense play!
Certainly the mechanics will really rub some types of players the wrong way, though at the same time (as you know) those are the elements that make it truly unique.
Maybe you could reconsider once we hit 1.0 and the game will offer a greater variety of experiences with the vast expansion of the world and completion of the lore, though I wouldn't want you to, for example, feel obligated to then tackle the high-difficulty endings (you might not survive, let alone Cogmind :P)
In any case, I imagine you'll one day be able to answer your burning questions by reading the rest of the lore in the wiki :D
I really appreciate everything you've done so far!
Quote from: zxc on September 28, 2015, 10:38:00 PMWhat about those stealth/speed wins you did? I imagine you didn't lose many parts with that approach. Watchers are an endless supply of good utilities for that sort of build, and the only other critical items are flight units.
You're right, I didn't lose
as many parts that way, but as a cruel twist the parts I did have became more valuable. I think I mentioned this in some of my older posts, but I got to the point where literally the only parts I cared about were prototype flight units and vision enhancements. 'Shedding' other parts just became a hollow-feeling 'well at least I didn't lose my eyes'. Maybe the game has changed enough to where I would need to be more well-rounded, but IMO that's all you need - scanners and ECM are just icing, but not the substance to my playstyle. I guess you could say my strategy was born around giving myself as little to stress over as possible.
There is a hardcore shard in me that also doesn't quite respect the speed/stealth victory. As Kyzrati has said, it's kind of the game's easy-mode. Winning in combat became my holy grail, but unlike you I did not make it through the brick wall :P
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 28, 2015, 11:28:31 PMMaybe you could reconsider once we hit 1.0 and the game will offer a greater variety of experiences with the vast expansion of the world and completion of the lore, though I wouldn't want you to, for example, feel obligated to then tackle the high-difficulty endings (you might not survive, let alone Cogmind :P)
I don't think I can part with Cogmind forever, don't you worry! At the
very least, it has a unique aesthetic and setting that I absolutely adore. My higher-level thoughts tell me that this is supposed to be a more arcade-y roguelike and I shouldn't stress over an individual run so much, but I never really found a way to make that click, haha. I will be back for more when the game is (closer to) finished! Perhaps then I won't feel so pressured to achieve because I'm sure there will be at least several 'Ancients' who have mastered the game :)
GEEZ you guys are keeping me rambling! For reals though, thank you guys so much for understanding. I know this all seems silly... but it means a lot to me. Thank you all, and good luck zxc, and especially you Kyzrati.
PEACE
Quote from: biomatter on September 30, 2015, 12:42:55 PM
There is a hardcore shard in me that also doesn't quite respect the speed/stealth victory. As Kyzrati has said, it's kind of the game's easy-mode. Winning in combat became my holy grail, but unlike you I did not make it through the brick wall :P
Later players have also had an easier time than you on that front, since Programmer frequency and squad sizes were both tuned down in later versions, along with integrity boosts for combat-important parts and benefits like no recoil with treads. Not that this would resolve the core issue of losing parts--there's still plenty of that--but the combat approach is more feasible than it ever was before.
Spoiler
And for ultimate late-game combat builds Happylisk discovered how OP EM weapons are, first suggested by yourself back in the day :)
For all: Stats from the tournament are coming shortly.
The analysis of the tournament data (http://www.gridsagegames.com/blog/2015/10/player-metrics-alpha-challenge-2015/) has been posted, a mega post with dozens of graphs.
Quote from: Kyzrati on September 30, 2015, 08:18:50 PM
The analysis of the tournament data (http://www.gridsagegames.com/blog/2015/10/player-metrics-alpha-challenge-2015/) has been posted, a mega post with dozens of graphs.
That was a great read. It's obvious a ton of work was put into that post.
One thing I find curious is the min/max slots by type graph showing the same min and max for the floors -2 through 0. Is that some kind of strange coincidence?
:)
Quote from: zxc on September 30, 2015, 08:55:19 PM
One thing I find curious is the min/max slots by type graph showing the same min and max for the floors -2 through 0. Is that some kind of strange coincidence?
Yes, it turns out that the very few people who reached those areas were using the same setup. The ranges are much wider if I include
all runs, but that data started to look more meaningless so (twice) I switched it back to the way it is now to reflect only best/high scores.
Quote from: zxc on September 28, 2015, 10:38:00 PM
I am slightly ashamed to admit I haven't read any of the story-related text in Cogmind, nor have I pondered too deeply Cogmind's existence and how he came to be - in the scrapyard.
I'm in love with the lore. It's how I got "Librarian" for the tournament :P
I've got a whole list written up of the different queries I've already read. There are still a few that elude me and many unanswered questions.
I know what cogmind is and why the complex exists and every day I want to spoil the (incredibly awesome) story but I keep it to myself...
Glad the lore is a hit so far. The branches will continue to flesh it out and add new parts you can't learn via regular terminals, and every day I want to spoil the story and reveal awesome stuff, but have to keep it to myself ;)