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[Joshua]

Perhaps something like this already exists (my gallery is not complete), but what about a processor utility (or two) that would let you target certain types of parts (weapons or propulsion)? It should probably be easier to get than the better core analyzers / armor integrity analyzers but would enable a different tactic of intentionally shooting off weapons, or shooting off propulsion and running away, which I don't know of a way to intentionally do now.

[Kyzrati]

This is something intentionally left out of the game, as it would be too easy to cheese (or be so restricted it wouldn't be fun or useful anyway).

Still, we could try to experiment with something like this later (or--a better option--make it a very specialized and rare part so that it can still be good and fun when you acquire it without unbalancing everything as it could if it were more common).

(I've added it to my "special list of fun things to look at adding later under special conditions" )

[Joshua]

If it was 100% chance to hit that part type first, I agree that it would be OP (disable robots with no effect on alert level). I was thinking it would be a smaller effect, adjusting the coverage weighting so that you have +10% or +20% chance to hit that part type as opposed to others - enough to make running away sometimes possible without making it guaranteed. Or perhaps an X% chance to hit that category regardless of coverage, with a fall back to the normal coverage calculation.

If it still needs to be rare or hard to get, perhaps it could come only on some of the special robots that are dispatched when the alert level is higher. (I haven't even seen high alert, I easily die when alert gets to level 2 already.)

[Kyzrati]

Oh sure I wasn't thinking about 100%, either, just that it's hard to settle on a percent that would really matter in a general sense.

The thing about Cogmind combat is that it's not as nuanced or prolonged for that to matter, at least not in a one-on-one sense. (As opposed to something like BattleTech, for example, which is where many inspirations originated.) You're generally fighting groups of robots, and individual robots die pretty quickly, so craftily disabling them doesn't seem like the most effective strategy unless it's going to be reliable. And if it's at all reliable it'll be OP.

(On that note, this same concept is also what's making a good robot hacking system difficult to design as well--the current placeholder system is slated to be replaced.)

I mean sure it could be a fun part to use, but I don't think optimizers would want to use something like this, assuming it was balanced "fairly" against everything else. That's how I make the determination that this is the sort of effect which can be difficult to acquire, but quite good if and once you do have it.

As for rare items, there are some more special sources of such items to come in the future, as part of the expanded content I'd like to add down the line as long as there's enough time and funding.

[zxc]

I agree with Kyzrati. Even though it's a cool idea, I don't think it would work well in Cogmind. Plus, it would complicate the interface a good deal, so it would have to be extra good to be worth it.

[Shadowfury333]

I could see the point of a utility that focuses it, though apart from "focus on core" I don't see myself using it. As for actual systems built around it, I could see that becoming a "grab left upper leg with right third finger" problem in a hurry.

[Orangesobe]

I feel like it could be useful as a way to disable certain parts (weapons, cooling racks, engines) although I agree the core should never be able to be directly targeted, lets assume every normal shot is aimed at the enemy core and any other parts hit are due to recoil/movement/armor ect.

Now you find for example, lets call it a Targeting Scope, it allows you to target a specific part on the unit at the cost of increased time to fire and a penalty to hit, you are fighting a commando and attempt to target his gauss cannon, reduce your accuracy by the size of the part you are targeting, the total mass of the machine compared to the part, movement effects, ect. i think finding the right balance would be an ongoing process but it definitely could have a function, and small parts that have very little mass would be very difficult to target without significantly focusing on a sniper build.

[DDarkray]

Part targeting does sound difficult to balance. In fact, some ideas for part targeting have already been implemented to a degree. For example, Core Analyzer has a similar effect of targeting robot's core. However, the chance to proc this effect is low, and its effect cannot be stacked either. Additionally, the effect will only transfer 50% of the damage to the core, and some robots are immune to this effect so you can't use it against certain foes. As you can see, there are a lot of restrictions in place for this kind of part targeting. As a result, not a lot of players use them, even among experienced players.

Armor Integrity Analyzer has a reverse effect where you have higher chance to target any part except armor. Unlike the core analyzer, this one is highly praised. There is little restriction, and the only thing you have to worry about is the proc chance. However, such worry is obsolete when the exp. version has 90% chance to proc. For only one processor, your chance to target core or weapon parts will increase since their armor coverage will be out of the equation. (The only real restriction is that it only affects armored robots, not regular robots, but that's where part targeting really shines. It only matters if you're facing off against strong enemies)

Similarly, targeting important parts can be really powerful unless there are a lot of restrictions behind it. If the ability to target any part except armor is already so powerful, it would be even more powerful if you can target any one part of your own choice! The most important part would be weapons since they directly influence your survival. If you can get to destroy their weapons easily, the robots would be as good as dead. Targeting power, propulsion, or utility won't have similar effect like this and are probably not worth implementing. If weapon targeting is as restricted as core analyzer, would it be worth having it?

[zxc]

Core analyzers have been bugged forever. This was only detected recently. Until now, the effect applied on hits on the robot WEARING it, rather than the bots that they were hitting. Therefore, we haven't really seen how effective the (non-bugged) core analyzer can be offensively. I would guess that it's quite good for gunslingers who land a lot of hits and therefore a lot of chances to proc core damage.

Part targeting is a UI problem if nothing else. I didn't like doing it in Fallout 3 and I wouldn't like it in Cogmind. Just clunky. Even if you did it smoothly, I mean, you would always target weapons or core. Rarely would you target anything else.

[DDarkray]

Core analyzers have been bugged forever. This was only detected recently. Until now, the effect applied on hits on the robot WEARING it, rather than the bots that they were hitting. Therefore, we haven't really seen how effective the (non-bugged) core analyzer can be offensively.

Oh right, I forgot about that.... It would be great if there's more transparency on item effect occurrence (by inserting it into the combat log) because that will help players see the effectiveness of an item and potentially find bugs.

[Kyzrati]

It would be great if there's more transparency on item effect occurrence (by inserting it into the combat log) because that will help players see the effectiveness of an item and potentially find bugs.

It's already transparent. It can be seen in the combat log and that's how one of the new Steam players discovered the bug. None of you combat log users noticed this over the past couple years!

[zxc]

I think I noticed the oddity with the combat log but I didn't put two and two together.

[Orangesobe]

I see specific part targeting as a tactical use weapon, any attempt to use in a prolonged firefight would be bad (increase the time to fire and you increase incoming damage) the more bots you bring on yourself the less useful it will be, and in mid to late game there swarms of very deadly commandos and hackers that will F you up in no time, I think excluding it from the game based solely on "it cant work" is a lack of imagination, I personally found when I first started playing that the inability to targets specific parts very counter intuitive though I understand for balance reasons it was left out i just think there may be room for some version of this in the long term.

[Sherlockkat]

Now you find for example, lets call it a Targeting Scope, it allows you to target a specific part on the unit at the cost of increased time to fire and a penalty to hit, you are fighting a commando and attempt to target his gauss cannon, reduce your accuracy by the size of the part you are targeting, the total mass of the machine compared to the part, movement effects, ect. i think finding the right balance would be an ongoing process but it definitely could have a function, and small parts that have very little mass would be very difficult to target without significantly focusing on a sniper build.

This is actually..how targeting works by default. The probability that you land on a shot on your desired part is (targeting stat/100 * coverage% (which is between 0 and 1)). Coverage% captures the idea of "size" and hey..you don't even get a penalty on your time to fire. Adding a utility which lets you select parts would have to be better than what you proposed (as it is strictly worse than what is already there).

To be constructive, a part targeting utility would do something like "add +10 to coverage for <X type> slots" or something along those lines.

[GJ]

If weapon targeting is as restricted as core analyzer, would it be worth having it?

If it worked on Crushers. Which it should, given they don't have the immunities of Behemoths. It would be more niche than engine targeting --- depriving an enemy of its weapons is not typically easier than killing their core.

Ever tried using narrow-spectrum weapons in the lategame? The engine explosions aren't particularly reliable, even with the 50% proc chance, 'cause the total coverage of the enemy's engines is usually some single-digit percentage. But it is an inherently valuable effect, as long as you're not exploding their engines at point-blank range. If you had access to engine targeting... there's stuff you could do with it.

This is assuming that the targeting effect would work with engine explosion, disruption, critical hits. If it's just damage being transferred to the part in question, that's primarily going to be useful when targeting the core, not for much else. Well, it wouldn't be very useful when targeting engines or weapons. Transferring damage to non-armor utilities... is actually good if impact corruption works with it, those are the parts that you want to hit with impact weapons, most of the time. It would have some additional uses beyond that as well, certain enemies have some interesting utilities you could focus down.