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[Juan]

Hi,

I purchase Cogmind on April 1th, however I didn't had the time to play until now. My first impression is this game is made with a lot of love... god, how many effects, sprites...

Coming from Tales of Maj'eyal, I started to move around, picking pieces and attaching them, without understand too much. There is a lot of letters that I should read, but I will do slowly. I've killed few yellow robots that were attacking me. Ok.

Now the title of this post - I cannot 'read' the game

After playing 5-6 times I got a bit frustated because I'm doing everything the same, running around, using the best gear I can and killing robots that shot me, and going through levels. Finally I die. I'm sure there is a lot more than this, but I'm not able to 'read' it. Accidentally I read somewhere you can play stealth builds, but I don't see how to hide from the yellow robots. I purchased this game because the environment were evolving, with you, or without you. That sold me! However I'm not able to read it... how is it evolving? the green or yellow robots are just walking randomly, and you cannot go back to the levels you already escaped.

Maybe this small frustation is because I need to learn a lot - and I do not pretend you spoil me saying: hey this game will became a shoot'em'put in stage 15 and later a point and click adventure when you get the robotic belt, but it would be very welcome if you can tell me how should I "read" the game to enjoy its wonders. I don't want to believe is just going through levels until you die... I want to understand how the world evolves! And how should I learn!

[Kyzrati]

Hey Juan!

Well, while you can certainly impact events of the world and change what's going on over time on a macro scale, much of the so-called "evolving" is yourself, since from area to area you may often be changing from strategy to strategy as your build changes, sometimes quite radically. In that sense it's going to be extremely different from a game like ToME, where you decide on a class and will pretty much be doing similar class-based actions throughout the entire game, getting better and better at them.

So stealth in particular is not usually something you'll be able to start with right out of the gates, because it requires at least a few parts to become an effective strategy, namely sensors and/or speed and/or hackware. (Most players looking to switch to other strategies will try to hold in their inventory a few relevant parts, and when they find another stockpile will swap everything in together.)

The further you reach, where there are more and more parts, the more specialized your loadout can become and you'll have more options available. Usually past the early game you'll start to take shape, and once you're more experienced it can take about 15-20 minutes to get out of the early game depending on your strategy.

For example MTF, who recently streamed his combat hacker win, had to spend the first half of the game doing a fair bit of direct fighting (and almost losing but coming back each time ). That was a relatively long transition to his goal, but it gives you an idea.

Maybe this small frustation is because I need to learn a lot

This is simultaneously Cogmind's biggest advantage and disadvantage. Players have said they love that it's a fresh game, but can get frustrated that so much of it is new. Aside from the mechanics, which are fully explained in the context help and manual, enemy behavior and "the way the world works" are meant to be learned gradually through observation and multiple playthroughs.

Overall it's a world that's a lot bigger than just you and what you see around you, which is not something roguelike players in particular are used to grasping. Normally roguelikes just have you passing from encounter to encounter, and you only have to worry about the situation in front of you and maybe what's around the corner, but if you do that in Cogmind you'll eventually find yourself in bigger trouble (That's not to say other RLs don't involve long-term strategy--of course they do, but they don't have quite as many factors to take into consideration as Cogmind, and not of the same variety.)

People who don't really like exploring and figuring stuff out will have a harder time getting into this game, but then anyone who falls into that category can also skip that process by reading spoiler guides or watching a video or two.

In any case, I'm interested in hearing more about how your play progresses--with some people it clicks in a day or two, but others take a while before they can reliably survive the early game and better control their progress as they'd like

[Juan]

My purpose was to give some feedback to you, since I'm not very used to these kind of games. For me, fighting without control is boring (ToME get boring from time to time, but the level up motivates me to play). Maybe there is a lot more to discover, and maybe some of the ideas I can tell you are already implemented - anyway - do not feel any pressure with them, they are just vague ideas from a random person.

I did a new run in Cogmind and I discovered there are computers that you can use. I still don't know understand them fully, but they seem interesting. One of them was like an store (?). Also, I liked some other robots appeared from nowhere and told me whatever, and how they helped me. I still do not understand too much about how the 'universe' works, all I can see is I hate yellow robots, they hate me, and they are a lot. This time I did a new record, I reached a new area with orange walls. I always think I need more guns, because I need to kill fast my enemies since I don't know how to flee them, and this game (at my poor level of understanding) is about killing yellow robots )

About the parts. They seem paper  they break too quickly and it seems they cannot be repaired. I don't know how to create a build and keep it, because they get damaged too fast. Also, I'm still not sure why a gear is better than another, and why they have different color. The rating indicator helps. I learn grenade launcher are very good, because it seems (at the moment) the only way to save myself from groups or 5-6 robots, and its easier to hit.


Also, I'm finally having problems with some stats, like the Heat - that was FUN! I was generating around 200 heat per shot, it was something like hit or die. One of things I loved from Silent Hunter 3, or Faster than Light, was that your 'device' (submarine or ship) could fail under damage or under some circunstances. When I see that in cogmind I loved it too. However in Cogmind it seems implemented like an "all or nothing", one device can work or it doesn't. It would be interesting if a damaged part may randomly work, work in a faulty way, or even a minimal chance to explode. Maybe they could be repaired with some time or utility.

One thing that bugs me is that I cannot attach directly a part from the floor. When I have the inventary full, I need to release one part, then get the other one, attach it, and get the part I leaved.

I repeat, do not take nothing I say to seriously, because I'm learning the game! I only played around 12h or less!

Well, while you can certainly impact events of the world and change what's going on over time on a macro scale, much of the so-called "evolving" is yourself, since from area to area you may often be changing from strategy to strategy as your build changes, sometimes quite radically. In that sense it's going to be extremely different from a game like ToME, where you decide on a class and will pretty much be doing similar class-based actions throughout the entire game, getting better and better at them.

I get confused with this, I read it pretty fast, so my imagination filled the gaps: http://www.gridsagegames.com/blog/2015/04/living-dungeon/

I thought Cogmind would be something similar to Dwarf Fortress, where you have a living ecosystem instead going from level to level and never returning (btw. I never played DF, is too complex for me). Anyway I'm not dissapointed, just discovering 'a new game'

[Kyzrati]

Yep, thanks for the feedback

About the parts. They seem paper 

Definitely something you'll have to get used to, but in general as you move forward you'll be replacing them with better and better gear anyway, so that becomes less of an issue. The first step is just to get a better idea of how to effectively move forward

Part of getting good at Cogmind is learning to think ahead pretty far based on what's happening, and it can take a while to accumulate enough knowledge to effectively do that.

Although a simple local consideration that's easy to remember: always keep your inventory full so you have stuff to swap in, and swap in during combat as necessary.

One of things I loved from Silent Hunter 3, or Faster than Light, was that your 'device' (submarine or ship) could fail under damage or under some circunstances. When I see that in cogmind I loved it too. However in Cogmind it seems implemented like an "all or nothing", one device can work or it doesn't. It would be interesting if a damaged part may randomly work, work in a faulty way, or even a minimal chance to explode. Maybe they could be repaired with some time or utility.

Yeah I like those kinds of mechanics, too (obviously ). Parts that are just disabled from heat will become functional again as per their counter, unless they were actually rendered broken, in which case you must've been really hot, and you should definitely try to avoid that happening by not using so many thermal weapons, or combining them with heat sinks.

Later on you'll have a lot more slots, so temporarily (or even permanently) losing a part's functionality won't be such a big deal. You're a lot more fragile in the early floors.

The other types of effects you mention do happen--don't worry, I'm sure you'll see them before long. You haven't really gotten to the parts of the game where corruption starts affecting your functionality, so there's that to "look forward to," hehe.

One thing that bugs me is that I cannot attach directly a part from the floor. When I have the inventary full, I need to release one part, then get the other one, attach it, and get the part I leaved.

You'll probably find the 'a' button pretty useful, which does this:

Or if you're using the mouse (I assume you're using the mouse), left-clicking on yourself when standing on the part does the same thing. There are a ton of UI methods to interact with items, and most interactions have 2-3 different possible commands to suit different preferences, so learning what works best for you can take some time.

Example of using the mouse to replace parts:

(It won't work if the part you're trying to take is not explicitly better than a specific part you already have, but it works in a lot of cases, and when it doesn't you can still skip your inventory by ctrl-clicking on the part. There's rarely a reason to cycle a part through your inventory unless you want to.)

I get confused with this, I read it pretty fast, so my imagination filled the gaps: http://www.gridsagegames.com/blog/2015/04/living-dungeon/

I thought Cogmind would be something similar to Dwarf Fortress, where you have a living ecosystem instead going from level to level and never returning (btw. I never played DF, is too complex for me). Anyway I'm not dissapointed, just discovering 'a new game'

Yeah I thought you might've interpreted it that way . The world is "alive" in a more ways you'll discover later, though in the most general sense it's that encounters are not usually as isolate as they seem. It's not you vs. local enemies, it's you vs. an entire complex full of bots that can work together. A pretty deadly place to be when you're not invited!

[Juan]

Thanks for the detailed and in-depth explanations! Anyway, I don't want you lose too many time repling me, just few words is enough

I'm doing more runs and I'm reading the manual. I'm playing with terminals more, I see I can get information about how the world works and its stored in the Lore. I have only few entries, but they seem they are in two sections, the first one alphabetically ordered and the second one (I only have one entry) with the dialogs. If they are not ordered, once you have a lot of them a search engine would be really welcome.

My new experiment was being a runner. Keep myself as fast as possible. However the game didn't help me too much, I almost didn't find propulsion gear in the firsts floor, so the most time I played without power parts, and of course, zero weapons. It was somewhat fun and lucky, I reached area 7, my surprise was that it wasn't orange but it had a white color. In that run it happened to me having a random encounter when I fall off in a trap, where there were big 2x2 robots and another robot was my friend. I tried to give him orders using Shift+Click but it didn't worked. So, I'm sorry for him, I did the only thing I was able to do, running as crazy 

It was also nice in another game with weapons, how a green robot was blocking me in a thin passage way, and an army was chasing me, so I shot him and finally he started to run away from me. In the same run, all my weapons broke, and I was trapped in a room, I had to kill the robot was in the door with collisions, I was laughting thinking my little robot was headbutting him.

One of the nicer things in Cogmind is the big amounts of parts and how they not only affect just stats. I was able to find a signal intepreter and sensor array, I wish I could had them when I did the running game. I hope I can find a lot more of fun parts like those!

When I shoot a ballistic weapon, I miss some mini-explosion or any visual artifact that shows me if I hit my target, I'm never sure when I did, and right clicking on them in each turn isn't comfortable.

[Kyzrati]

One of the nicer things in Cogmind is the big amounts of parts and how they not only affect just stats. I was able to find a signal intepreter and sensor array, I wish I could had them when I did the running game. I hope I can find a lot more of fun parts like those!

Yep, when you want specific parts, just attack the robots that have them . This is one of several ways to get a build you want rather than relying on otherwise random stockpiles.

When I shoot a ballistic weapon, I miss some mini-explosion or any visual artifact that shows me if I hit my target, I'm never sure when I did, and right clicking on them in each turn isn't comfortable.

There is a combat log top center which you can set to tell you exactly what you hit, and your accuracy breakdown. But it's rather simple in Cogmind: if you see the projectile hit the robot and stop there, that means it hit. But some people like to use the combat log for their own reasons anyway.

And you don't have to open robot info to get important feedback--there are lots of visual indicators you'll catch onto eventually.

[Gobbopathe]

One thing that bugs me is that I cannot attach directly a part from the floor. When I have the inventary full, I need to release one part, then get the other one, attach it, and get the part I leaved.

You'll probably find the 'a' button pretty useful, which does this:

Hi Kyzrati, sorry if I am hacking this thread, but I'd like to go back to this (keyboard player here) : I find quite annoying also the situation where I have to swap an item from the floor. I (re)discovered the rule illustrated above, but in lots of situations I swap with a completely different item type (in my last few games I focused quite headlessly on attaching all unknown items to populate my gallery for instance). I consistently use Ctrl+Shift A~Z 1~9 combination to swap between inventory and attached parts, but I feel that this combination could be richer with the possibility to use it for floor items too (something like Ctrl+Shift A~Z <magic key to determine>). It would let the player choose exactly which part he's like to swap with that good-looking item on the floor.
Btw I find quite frustrating too that items are "identified" (and listed in the gallery) only when we attach them (the inventory is still not enough). Why "seeing" an item on the floor would not be enough ?

[Kyzrati]

Hi Kyzrati, sorry if I am hacking this thread, but I'd like to go back to this (keyboard player here) : I find quite annoying also the situation where I have to swap an item from the floor. I (re)discovered the rule illustrated above, but in lots of situations I swap with a completely different item type (in my last few games I focused quite headlessly on attaching all unknown items to populate my gallery for instance). I consistently use Ctrl+Shift A~Z 1~9 combination to swap between inventory and attached parts, but I feel that this combination could be richer with the possibility to use it for floor items too (something like Ctrl+Shift A~Z <magic key to determine>). It would let the player choose exactly which part he's like to swap with that good-looking item on the floor.

The current rules are listed in the manual under Advanced UI, and are kept very simple so that the results are 1) predictable and 2) will opt on the side of making fewer changes rather than more changes, and only the changes which will be better for you. If you're familiar with those rules you'll have a better understanding of what's going on.

You'll have to give me a concrete example of "in lots of situations I swap with a completely different item type," because I'm pretty sure you're mistaken--this is not how it works . Unless the new part is outright better, it will opt to make no change, in which case you have to make the decision.

That said, I do plan to eventually add a new optional step whereby if there is no clear swap to be made, you can use the command again and it will pull up a menu allowing you to choose a specific valid target to swap with.

Btw I find quite frustrating too that items are "identified" (and listed in the gallery) only when we attach them (the inventory is still not enough). Why "seeing" an item on the floor would not be enough ?

This is to encourage you to actually use different parts and play styles. That and simply "seeing" parts doesn't mean you actually "saw" them as a player. There can be tons of parts on the screen and you could miss some, then later you find things in your gallery that you still have no idea exist, or where you found them

In the end though the main goal is to get you to use different parts. You don't need to attach everything right away just for the gallery--as you play different styles and more runs, you'll naturally end up using all kinds of stuff, and the gallery will reflect that in the long run, making it a more accurate representation of what you've done.

[Gobbopathe]

This is to encourage you to actually use different parts and play styles. That and simply "seeing" parts doesn't mean you actually "saw" them as a player. There can be tons of parts on the screen and you could miss some, then later you find things in your gallery that you still have no idea exist, or where you found them

In the end though the main goal is to get you to use different parts. You don't need to attach everything right away just for the gallery--as you play different styles and more runs, you'll naturally end up using all kinds of stuff, and the gallery will reflect that in the long run, making it a more accurate representation of what you've done.

I definitely get the point, and I was a bit provocating. It is fine to me. But this is correlated to the "attach an item from the floor" issue below.

You'll have to give me a concrete example of "in lots of situations I swap with a completely different item type," because I'm pretty sure you're mistaken--this is not how it works . Unless the new part is outright better, it will opt to make no change, in which case you have to make the decision.

I must have confused you. When I wrote "in lots of situations I swap with a completely different item type" I meant "in lots of situations I WANT TO swap with a completely different item type"
Let's say : I have a Thermal Converter. I find on the floor a triangulator (+ not in my gallery : I need it !!!), or a lyr. armor plating, or whatever : a new utility not the same type of the one I have currently attached (and that I will attach back the turn after if it is just to populate my gallery. I know, silly idea but achievements + gallery + lore to unlock = silly players).
Or maybe I will keep the triangulator attached. Then how do I precise I want to replace my thermal converter and not my remote shield or whatever ?

But ok I admit this is theoretical. I should test more thoroughly the existing algorithm

[Kyzrati]

Well, if you don't have any empty slots, it won't replace anything in that case because swapping never occurs if it requires extra input from you. The point of the automated system is to make choices that require no player input so you don't have to waste time thinking about them and can focus on the real decisions.

If you want to switch two completely unrelated items (between ground and equipment/inventory), drop the one you're currently using, then attach the other.

That said, the other feature I'll be adding eventually (and described in my last post) will be yet another way to accomplish the same task.

Also, not sure if you're familiar with it but there's also the '/' command (or ctrl-click if you're using the mouse) for swapping arbitrary items via the menu system (though this particular approach doesn't include items on the ground, only parts<->inventory).

[Gobbopathe]

Well, if you don't have any empty slots, it won't replace anything in that case because swapping never occurs if it requires extra input from you. The point of the automated system is to make choices that require no player input so you don't have to waste time thinking about them and can focus on the real decisions.

Ok, no need to test then, I got the answer

If you want to switch two completely unrelated items (between ground and equipment/inventory), drop the one you're currently using, then attach the other.

That's what I am doing currently yes, and that takes of course extra time (have to drop on the adjacent tile, go on the tile with the interesting item, attach it from the floor, drop it and go back on the tile with the previous item)

That said, the other feature I'll be adding eventually (and described in my last post) will be yet another way to accomplish the same task.

Yup, I noticed it and will gladly try it once it will be implemented

Also, not sure if you're familiar with it but there's also the '/' command (or ctrl-click if you're using the mouse) for swapping arbitrary items via the menu system (though this particular approach doesn't include items on the ground, only parts<->inventory).

I wasn't but I (re)discovered it yesterday when I searched a solution by (rererere)reading the manual and finding this thread. But since it does not more than Ctrl+Shift A~Z 1~9 and is even a bit slower (have to go through an extra screen to precise the slot), I don't think I will use this command.

[Kyzrati]

I wasn't but I (re)discovered it yesterday when I searched a solution by (rererere)reading the manual and finding this thread. But since it does not more than Ctrl+Shift A~Z 1~9 and is even a bit slower (have to go through an extra screen to precise the slot), I don't think I will use this command.

Yeah its biggest advantage is when you have a huge inventory, where scrolling through that inventory searching for a particular item will waste more time than pulling up a dedicated filtered menu, so remember it when you're carrying around 30 items

[Gobbopathe]

I wasn't but I (re)discovered it yesterday when I searched a solution by (rererere)reading the manual and finding this thread. But since it does not more than Ctrl+Shift A~Z 1~9 and is even a bit slower (have to go through an extra screen to precise the slot), I don't think I will use this command.

Yeah its biggest advantage is when you have a huge inventory, where scrolling through that inventory searching for a particular item will waste more time than pulling up a dedicated filtered menu, so remember it when you're carrying around 30 items

Good point !

[zxc]

For me the biggest advantage is not needing to hold ctrl shift and more keys at the same time. It ends up being quicker and better for my hands to use the / modal menu.

[Kyzrati]

Since it was added, I've found myself mostly using `/` even if I only have a couple inventory items, mainly because yeah it doesn't require holding a bunch of keys at once, or splitting a potential single action into two (where in both cases the chance for error is somewhat higher).

[Juan]

Josh, thanks for adding some kind of feedback when an enemy robot is hit in beta 7.2. It improves the gameplay for me!!

[Kyzrati]

Great to hear, Juan! Thanks for letting me know

Honestly I personally don't even notice that new feature when playing (perhaps because I'm only playing on stream now so I've got a lot of different stuff dividing my attention?), but anyway so far everyone seems to really like it so I'm glad it's become a thing.