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[Kyzrati]

Use this thread for general feedback and discussion about the most recent release, if you want to talk about something that you don't feel warrants a dedicated thread.

This is the open spoiler version, for discussions where you plan to talk about spoilery content and don't want to bother with spoiler tagging. Do not read this thread if you want to avoid spoilers! For non-spoiler discussion, feel free to use the non-spoiler discussion thread here.

Alpha 13 release notes and changelog.

[Shadowfury333]

Well, I've had two runs so far. First one died in -10/Mines from an infestation, Second one died at -6/Extension. I've never even heard of Extension, but I saw a blast-door-barred gate and decided to explore.

Knowing more about the time system helped a bit, mostly in realizing just how strong retreat can be, and that's it really is worth it to move around a bit during combat to pick up parts. I also really like the autoreplace-on-pickup feature, though I'm not sure if Flak Guns should replace Assault Rifles, unless I'm mistaken and Flak Guns aren't more of shotgun weapon.

[Kyzrati]

though I'm not sure if Flak Guns should replace Assault Rifles, unless I'm mistaken and Flak Guns aren't more of shotgun weapon.

You can read the replacement rules in the manual under Advanced UI, but Flak Guns are three ratings higher than Assault Rifles, so it's safe to assume they're better. They do three times as much damage, although yes it'll be more spread out and possibly not too effective against some targets (armored Sentries...) compared to non-shotgun weapons of the same caliber, but they're still definitely far better than Assault Rifles!

[Morlock]

In my first a13 run, something *unexpected* happened. I was on -10 and found an entrance to the Mines. Since there is more interesting stuff there now, I said "why the heck not?" and dove in. In there, I met a derelic robot who said I could follow him to a safe place. I took his hidden stair and ended up in Zion (-6). Upon exiting Zion, I ended up somewhere (not Materials but I do no know where) on -5.

Since I have gone through ZERO evolution step, I guess I can kiss my Cogmind goodbye

Is this a normal possibility? Isn't it too much of a level jump?

Here are two snapshots of my character and the map so far.

[Shadowfury333]

That looks like Caves, and since you are on -5 I'm pretty sure it is leading back to the main branch. That is, unless my run from -6/Caves through to it's outermost limit (there's more than one outward going branch of Caves), then back towards the main branch through -5/Caves was only one possibility.

[Shobalk]

In my first a13 run, something *unexpected* happened. I was on -10 and found an entrance to the Mines. Since there is more interesting stuff there now, I said "why the heck not?" and dove in. In there, I met a derelic robot who said I could follow him to a safe place. I took his hidden stair and ended up in Zion (-6). Upon exiting Zion, I ended up somewhere (not Materials but I do no know where) on -5.

I'm not sure that's intended.  I can't think of any reason you'd actually want to skip those evolutions unless you really want to make the game hard.

[Kyzrati]

Yes it's intended. In that case you'd evolve 4 times at once (gaining 8 slots and all the other benefits you missed) when you get back to the main branch--you just have to be able to reach it

This sort of "multi-evolution" has been in the game for a while, but most players haven't visited the once place where it was possible. This new shortcut was just added, to give players access to Zion and its new features.

In any case, I've never taken it to this extreme before, and yes it's tough to get back through the caves if you take the shortcut that far. So one option would be to just not take that shortcut if you don't feel up for the challenge!

That said, you apparently did not fully explore Zion, either, because there are friends there who will help escort you back through the caves!

[Shobalk]

Yes it's intended. In that case you'd evolve 4 times at once (gaining 8 slots and all the other benefits you missed) when you get back to the main branch--you just have to be able to reach it

This sort of "multi-evolution" has been in the game for a while, but most players haven't visited the once place where it was possible. This new shortcut was just added, to give players access to Zion and its new features.

Ahh right, you need to get back to the main branch.  Like a trip through storage -> recycling.

That said, you apparently did not fully explore Zion, either, because there are friends there who will help escort you back through the caves!

Hmm I found those fellows the "M"'s I believe.  They followed me around Zion, but didn't pop up the stairs with me when I ascended to the prox caves.  Did I need to something specific to enable the escort?

[Kyzrati]

Never had allies in tow before?

When adjacent to an exit, if you have any allies following you (regardless of where they're located), it highlights an area around the exit. That's the area in which allies will follow when you leave. Any beyond that will be left behind.

As of Alpha 12, any allies that are in combat will also give up the fight and run straight to the exit if you are next to it. (Though your Zion escort is unlikely to be in a fight, just slower than you.)

[Shobalk]

Never had allies in tow before?

When adjacent to an exit, if you have any allies following you (regardless of where they're located), it highlights an area around the exit. That's the area in which allies will follow when you leave. Any beyond that will be left behind.

They were right next to me.  I'll see if I can reproduce next time I'm in there.  This particular run I wasn't recording, so I don't have anything concrete to share.

[Kyzrati]

Oh damn, you're right! That's a bug :/

Oops, and they're supposed to be able to help you get out...

In my own run when I was testing I didn't even notice because I had a bunch of other bots from Zion helping me out, and those I had recruited normally, so they followed me as expected while the escorts stayed behind (thus I still had help).

This is almost important enough to do another update, but I guess I'll wait since already a day has gone by... (not that it necessarily feels like a bug, since they do just say they're going to escort you out, but it's pretty tough going back through Proximity Caves possibly without any help at all (!), which is why I put them there in the first place ).

The bug is that while they follow you as expected, they don't technically switch to the correct faction to be allowed to follow you off the map.

[Morlock]

I sure want to get these 4 or 5 evolutions at one time (haven't had the time to get back to that run yet), but I will probably die just before or just after.

[Kyzrati]

It's a tough transition, although the long-term benefits you get from going to Zion now are... probably quite OP--if you can make it back you'll be in excellent shape. The escorts would've really helped make that transition

[DDarkray]

I just died in proximity cave via Zion shortcut. And oh man, the mine branch is SO AWESOME!! Definitely worth going there.

I was about to comment about the sudden jump in multiple floors. I thought that was cool until I found myself squishy in the face of several enemies. My core was only ~100 left, so that was a quick end. 

It's also kinda funny the -10 Materials terminals still show Garrison Index command.

[Kyzrati]

It's also kinda funny the -10 Materials terminals still show Garrison Index command.

True, in fact it has also always been possible to list the Fabricator Index as well, even though they were removed from Materials a while ago.

I'll remove both.

[Shadowfury333]

Well, just had another death, though this one happened after what seemed like 4 or 5 lame duck situations I recovered from, so at least that part of the game's design finally worked out in my favour.

Also, I found Zion. I've no clue what it's for other than advanced tutorials. some buddies, and some interesting gear, but it was neat. I can't remember if data miner is on -7 or -6, though, since I've found them before but I don't recall exactly where. Seems like grabbing gear from behind closed doors, or maybe just going into Zion, or maybe the Imprinter (I got a bonus for that), gets the caves full of MAIN.C's goons, since I kept having to fight waves of them just to proceed. Certainly made Signal Interpreters my favourite item.

[RBrandon]

I made it to Zion a couple of times using the shortcut, but never made it out of the caves after. Finding this place though made me much more excited to learn what is going on in the game's story!

[Kyzrati]

Excellent, that's what I was hoping the introduction of a shortcut would help with--motivating players to explore more, and also allowing early enough access to the survival tips (and other benefits) some of the inhabitants provide. Plus if you do manage to make it back, the main new benefit you can gain in Zion (just added in Alpha 13) is quite powerful and will help you all the way to the surface.

That said, depending on where you find the shortcut and where Zion is, it can be extremely difficult to survive the trip back to the complex in the first place! Next release I'll be restricting the shortcut length so that it can't take you quite so far so fast, and, just as importantly, those Mutants who escort you will actually follow you out into the caves and aid you to the death. That they did not was an oversight on my part: when playtesting I had a sizeable group of allies from Zion, not just them, and didn't notice those few had dropped out from the group on the way out xD. With them at your side you're more likely to complete the round trip.

[zxc]

Forum's been quiet for a while now. I figure I'll give an update on my game in progress, which is last week's weekly seed (Dangers Deep).

I'm currently drifting around Access, overloading everything with my trusty datajack. Been at it for several hours ingame. Goal is to smash the high score record. I'm not sure how long to farm for. I guess I should keep at it until I actually have to leave because my core is about to die. This could take a while...

The hacking nerf hasn't really worked in terms of stopping the player from dominating the late-game, but it certainly slowed the build down a lot in the mid-game. The alert level skyrockets but the build can handle alert 5 just fine.

The zion hacks are helpful to have, but are much more useful to conventional combat builds.

[Kyzrati]

The hacking nerf hasn't really worked in terms of stopping the player from dominating the late-game, but it certainly slowed the build down a lot in the mid-game. The alert level skyrockets but the build can handle alert 5 just fine.

Do you think that high-level alert dangers (planned, and assume they are very deadly) this late-game hacking build you have going would remain viable but no longer OP? Or should we more directly tweak hacking itself?

The zion hacks are helpful to have, but are much more useful to conventional combat builds.

The latter was the goal, and in that they've certainly succeeded, but my fear with those hacks is that they would also make the flight game even easier, having backup options like that.

[zxc]

High level alert dangers will absolutely stop this farm in its tracks. The build will still remain very strong for regular winning / command though. I think high alert dangers will stop any farm, really... unless new mechanics emerge.

I think the z hacks help flight, but it's mostly due to the haulers you can summon (or reinforcements to deal with extermination squads). The intel hacks are very good but are mostly redundant with some regular hackware, but they are always worth a look (a guaranteed access main is excellent). Proportionately, the z hacks help combat and non-hackers much more.

[Kyzrati]

Yeah the intent of the high-alert dangers would be to stop farming, so that would be covered. It would seem like more hacking adjustments would be necessary to keep the hackware snowball strategy from being so powerful? Again, I don't want to nerf it into the ground, but "follow steps xyz (or zxc ) for a sure win" doesn't seem like a great situation to have.

[zxc]

Dunno... need to see if other people can easily replicate this for wins. For a non-farm win this is no easier than other flight builds. Hackware is always gonna be one of the best things to fabricate. You can prevent fabbing hackware, but then it'll be pure RNG if you want hackware.

[Sherlockkat]

Again, I don't want to nerf it into the ground, but "follow steps xyz (or zxc ) for a sure win" doesn't seem like a great situation to have.

I think hacking is fine right now. It is somewhat "follow steps to win" ish. But, that sounds okay to me. There should be a reliable way to win as long as the steps aren't too simplistic to execute (with the hacking build, I don't think they are). It is hard for me (and zxc too, I think) to objectively evaluate how easy they are given that we have been doing it for a while. The mid game is still requires some amount of care to navigate. The process of setting the build up is somewhat involved and you need to gain control of enough fabs. You might get lucky and find some unguarded fab that lets you fab like 4 adv. hacking suites. In my experience, that doesn't happen often in the mid-game. It happens once you reach critical mass, but at that point it doesn't matter that you can do that. There is also a part of the mid-game where fabricating additional hackware is purely a investment as it doesn't do anything immediately. Either you don't have enough slots, or the increase in hack% doesn't do much. For instance, a jump from +50 to +60 is not a big deal. It's not enough to hack robots consistently and +50 is more often than enough to do whatever hacks you want to do at any machine.

From a viability perspective, I think these builds are always on the verge of being unviable (or worse, boring), because they are very reliant on a single mechanic. For instance, I think any further reduction to hackware numbers would make this build really dull (I already think it's a bit dull after the hackware nerf).

All that being said, I would rather wait until someone beats command in a different way before deciding whether it is overpowered or not.

[Kyzrati]

Oh yeah I wasn't thinking along the lines of nerfing hackware by further lowering its benefits (as I think that has too much of a negative effect on those who want to do just some hacking), but instead changing up the mechanics a bit in maybe one of the other ways discussed so far in the hacking thread. Or as you mentioned in chat the new "additional utilities required for certain high-level robot hacks" approach.

The main problem with follow-the-steps strategies is that they become boring, yes. Sure players can choose to not use them, but as we know, in a tightly-designed game a lot of players tend to do what they know works, and good design needs to save players from themselves in that regard...

In any case, it sounds like the priority would be to work on the high-alert dangers first, anyway.