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[Kyzrati]

One of the main remaining types of non-obvious stats in the game is Cogmind's defensive combat factors that contribute to evasion, i.e. avoiding being struck by incoming projectiles in the first place. Defensively you already have access to coverage and integrity data, but those only play a role once you're hit--all factors considered, how likely is it you'll be hit? Obviously the value will vary by enemy because they have their own numerous combat and situational modifiers, but it'd be nice to have an at-a-glance way to know your general "evasion rating."

Knowledge gained from reading the manual combined with individual item stats/effect descriptions do provide a complete picture, but they're not all in one place, take some getting used to, and some even require calculations (like heat level). For a while I've wanted to make these available in the HUD, but it's kinda full at the moment, so I've come up with a possible approach that I'd like to share here for feedback.

First I took a look at all the defensive factors contributing to evasion, and there are only five:

• Flight/Hover bonus
• Heat level
• Movement speed (and whether recently moved)
• Evasion modifiers from utilities (e.g. Maneuvering Thrusters)
• Cloaking modifiers from utilities (e.g. Cloaking Devices)

So that tells us how much space might be required to display this information.

Then the most unused part of the UI I found was the Volley window, which isn't exactly unused, but is only really needed in targeting mode, which is key here because we only really need evasion data when moving around and/or not in targeting mode.

I propose giving that part of the UI double duty, making the Volley window appear only while in firing/targeting mode, and at all other times that space would be occupied by a new "Evasion" window which displays your base avoidance value and all its components. Something like this mockup:

(the mockup also shows a value grayed out due to special circumstances you'll see below)

Then the window can also be expanded by hovering over it with the cursor as well as via some key, in order to see a more explicit breakdown with any additional status information, e.g.

(no the totals don't add up--this is just a mockup with typed in info for demonstration purposes!)

This feature should help provide a clearer picture of the consequences of certain decisions and situations, and also help intermediate players improve their skills.

What do you think?

Edit: It's now been implemented, to be available in Alpha 10. I posted a demo later in this thread.

[Sherlockkat]

My 2 cents: I think the scan window is kinda useless. It is easier and much more natural (atleast for a keyboard player) to get that info (and more) by using a combination of f, d, x, tab and the number keys. I think it might be better to completely replace that window with dodge information.

I think the corollary to my statement regarding the usage of keyboard to obtain scan data is that the game needs to do a better job of pointing new player to those resources. Sure, they can look at the manual. But, I feel like you could dramatically improve new player experience if that information is more in their face. I actually learnt more commands by guess than by looking at the manual. But then, I also liked the game to begin with . You might not have that luxury with newer players.

edit: That being said, I don't mind if the volley window does double duty and displays the evasion info. It is neat space saving trick, but I don't know how much attention people pay to moonlighting UI components.

[Kyzrati]

Well, different people pay (vastly) more or less attention to different aspects when it comes to UI, and also have different needs based on experience level and even beyond the game itself--what they've experienced in other games.

So the scan window is vital for some players. I use it a fair amount myself, and it's very valuable for a non-insignificant portion of new players. It's true that keyboard players and experts who've been playing for a while have faster/other methods of obtaining similar information, but actually a lot of people just use the mouse (or may turn off certain automated optional map features, in which case the scan window becomes even more important). Though yes the scan window originated with the 7DRL when that was the only easy way to get information about objects, which is now accessible through better means in some cases.

With respect to commands, in general all fresh players just use the mouse (which can do everything and is pretty intuitive from what I've seen) and gradually learn extra keyboard commands if they're curious/feel like it, except for experienced players from other roguelikes who will be familiar with checking the available '?' list of commands to begin with. But really the vast majority of players, even those who have been playing for a while, just stick with the mouse for a lot of things (or so say the upload stats--right now we have 26% of reporting players who use pure keyboard mode, and that number has been falling over time as new players join from outside the core roguelike community). Anyway, we'll see. What I've always wanted to avoid is an even more invasive tutorial and set of tooltips, as they would completely destroy the immersion I'm trying to create xD


As for the OP, personally I use the volley window to get a glance at resource costs (and sometimes but only rarely range info), but I guess entering firing mode to do that is not a big deal... (or at least it's worth the sacrifice to have evasion data)

[zxc]

I use the scan window constantly, including to see item names (when there are too many items on the screen it's clearer to go through them one by one instead of using 3') and to see if robots have spotted me (the ! symbol).

[Kyzrati]

I use it for those sames reasons, and also (because I do a lot of fighting )
to compare potential targets' relative integrity (and occasionally hit chance) before deciding which in a group to attack next.

The primary use is still quickly scanning through massive piles of parts that are too dense for '3', though.

[Shobalk]

Ohh man, I'd love to see this.  Double duty with the volley window is probably the best place for it, if you ask me.

[Shadowfury333]

The primary use is still quickly scanning through massive piles of parts that are too dense for '3', though.

I was about to say that's how I use it, because I do that quite a bit. Though I also play a kb+m setup because I found from DoomRL that using mouse to aim is a lot faster than the keyboard. I mean, auto-targeting does help quite a bit in both games, but when explosives or flanking attack parties come up (or cornershooting in general in DoomRL) manual aim becomes key.

As for the evasion window, I think it's a great idea, both for the existing volley window and itself. I don't pay a huge amount of attention to the volley window because I don't really think about it, it's tucked away in the corner, and it's all kinda dark green. If that element changed in response to me starting to target I'd notice right away and pay attention to it, especially since the standard for Cogmind UI changes is a brief but conspicuous scan-in effect.

[mindreader]

I realized reading this post that I never, ever think about my own avoidance.  In fact, I completely forgot that heat was even a factor.  So yeah, I'm all for this.

I'm assuming heat changes color as you get hotter?

Maybe change speed to momentum?  Unless that is misleading.

Take off evasion and cloaking when you don't have them.

What do all these mean?  '40% avo' before base accuracy, and what is the difference between derived and average avoidance?  Which one is displayed in the small screen?

[Kyzrati]

I realized reading this post that I never, ever think about my own avoidance.  In fact, I completely forgot that heat was even a factor.  So yeah, I'm all for this.

Yes, a big reason that I felt it should be added . In most cases it's actually only a minor part of the chance you'll be hit, but it does matter, and it does fluctuate, so everyone should have easier access to when and why it's changing.

I'm assuming heat changes color as you get hotter?

It already does that in the HUD's heat indicator, whereas here it's purpose is to just show it as a component of a greater number, so I think its color should remain static.

Maybe change speed to momentum?  Unless that is misleading.

Momentum is actually a separate mechanic, yeah.

Take off evasion and cloaking when you don't have them.

Leaving them there zeroed has the advantage of teaching new players what evasion factors are possible, though, so I'm not so sure about that. Maybe--not hard to change anyway so I'll see what it looks like and how it feels to play with it. Could also just have them darkened when they're not applicable. Could depend on the final colors (this was just a quick mockup from my notes.)

What do all these mean?  '40% avo' before base accuracy,

Um, whoops, that was me messing up the copy of my mockup when I tried to screenshot it without the extra junk and notes around that layer . The top line is supposed to just read "Base Accuracy 60%"

and what is the difference between derived and average avoidance?  Which one is displayed in the small screen?

The nomenclature is not well thought out yet, just something for the mockup.

"Derived Avoidance" basically means 100-60, or the portion of the chance you won't be hit based on the base accuracy of other robots. And "Average Avoidance" is just what I called the final result (which isn't apparent in the mockup because all the numbers are made up).

That's the problem with even showing this total number in the first place, since it's only somewhat meaningful--it has relative meaning, but not quite so much absolute meaning since there are a lot of other factors that determine whether you'll be hit (on the offense side).

[Kyzrati]

Today I went ahead and implemented this, so it's now a thing coming up in Alpha 10. I'll talk more about it then, but here's what it looks like in action

[mindreader]

Looking forward to it!