Alpha 6 Discussion

[zxc]

Kyzrati: "Alpha 6 is out, and there have been comments and discussions appearing elsewhere so we should have a specific thread for that here, as usual."

Alpha announcement and changelog.


Random thoughts:

- Could use confirmation on removing processors that will self-destruct
- Could use some indication in the item view of processors that removing them will destroy them (currently the only indication I can spot is the : next to the item letter when it's equipped)
- How come there is always a decent stutter right when you make you first move on a new level? I have always wondered
- If you have the inventory/equip space, why can't you swap on/off items that take up multiple slots?

[Kyzrati]

- Could use confirmation on removing processors that will self-destruct

Yeah, it's been requested, but due to the potential for swapping behavior and the way the inventory works it's extremely complicated the way the code is set up. I would've already done it in Alpha 6 if it were easy. I'll look into it again at some point.

- Could use some indication in the item view of processors that removing them will destroy them (currently the only indication I can spot is the : next to the item letter when it's equipped)

Hm, it's the same behavior for any part of the Processor or Hackware types, so it would seem fairly redundant once you know. But I'll look for a way. Not too easy to make it both unobtrusive and actually useful/informative on that particular page.

- How come there is always a decent stutter right when you make you first move on a new level? I have always wondered

The delay happens on the first action of any level of Factory size or larger, due to all the AIs starting up at once. That's because you always get the first turn. I'd rather not have the AIs acting before you, which would otherwise allow that time to be merged with the normal startup time (which would then also seem a bit long, too)...

- If you have the inventory/equip space, why can't you swap on/off items that take up multiple slots?

The code is too complicated, when combined with all the other related rules. Inventory/part management code is extremely convoluted as is, but making the assumption that multi-slot items cannot be involved makes it somewhat bearable, and multi-slot items are much less common anyway, so I decided it was more important to preserve my sanity on this point

[Happylisk]

I really don't understand this game sometimes.  I fire up a game and play decidedly unseriously, so of course this happens. 

Spoiler

Cogmind - Alpha 6

Name: Happylisk

---[ ESCAPED! ]---

Performance
-------------
Evolutions (9)             4500
Robots Destroyed (303)     1515
Value Destroyed (15419)    15419
Prototype IDs (14)         280
Alien Tech Identified (0)  0
Bonus (3000)               3000
              TOTAL SCORE: 24714

Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity             709/1600
Matter                     265/300
Energy                     1476/1480
System Corruption          6%
Temperature                Cool (2)
Location                   Surface

Parts
-------
Power (4)
  Light Particle Reactor
  Reinforced Quantum Reactor
  Reinforced Quantum Reactor
  Reinforced Quantum Reactor
Propulsion (2)
  Compact Heavy Treads
Utility (14)
  Advanced Targeting Computer
  Improved Energy Well
  Advanced Targeting Computer
  Advanced Target Analyzer
  Advanced Targeting Computer
  Advanced Heat Sink
  Advanced Heat Sink
  Advanced Target Analyzer
  Advanced Heat Sink
  Advanced Heat Sink
  Reflective Heavy Armor
  Advanced Force Field
  Advanced Cooling System
Weapon (5)
  Long-range Proton Cannon
  Railgun
  Fusion Cannon
  Nova Cannon
  Linear Accelerator

Inventory
-----------
Linear Accelerator
Light Quantum Reactor
Advanced Heat Sink

Peak State
------------
Power
  Light Particle Reactor
  Reinforced Quantum Reactor
  Reinforced Quantum Reactor
  Reinforced Quantum Reactor
Propulsion
  Compact Heavy Treads
Utility
  Advanced Targeting Computer
  Improved Energy Well
  Advanced Targeting Computer
  Advanced Target Analyzer
  Advanced Targeting Computer
  Advanced Heat Sink
  Advanced Heat Sink
  Advanced Target Analyzer
  Advanced Heat Sink
  Advanced Heat Sink
  Reflective Heavy Armor
  Advanced Force Field
  Advanced Cooling System
Weapon
  Long-range Proton Cannon
  Railgun
  Fusion Cannon
  Nova Cannon
  Linear Accelerator
[Rating: 151]

Favorites
-----------
Power                      Micro Fission Core
  Engine                   Improved Deuterium Engine
  Power Core               Micro Fission Core
  Reactor                  Light Particle Reactor
Propulsion                 Improved Treads
  Treads                   Improved Treads
  Leg                      Aluminum Leg
Utility                    Advanced Heat Sink
  Device                   Advanced Heat Sink
  Storage                  Large Storage Unit
  Processor                Advanced Targeting Computer
  Protection               Hardened Light Armor Plating
Weapon                     Railgun
  Energy Gun               Cooled Plasma Rifle
  Energy Cannon            Long-range Proton Cannon
  Ballistic Gun            Railgun
  Ballistic Cannon         Light Cannon
  Launcher                 Point Singularity Launcher

Stats
-------
Bonus Breakdown            3000
  Win                      3000
Classes Destroyed          15
  Worker                   16
  Builder                  15
  Tunneler                 3
  Hauler                   1
  Recycler                 19
  Operator                 1
  Watcher                  1
  Swarmer                  66
  Grunt                    78
  Brawler                  5
  Duelist                  2
  Sentry                   17
  Hunter                   30
  Programmer               47
  Behemoth                 2
NPCs Destroyed             0
Best Kill Streak           10
  Combat Bots Only         8
Matter Collected           8394
  Salvage Created          14872
Parts Attached             396
  Power                    71
  Propulsion               27
  Utility                  130
  Weapon                   168
Parts Lost                 146
  Power                    24
  Propulsion               8
  Utility                  60
  Weapon                   54
Average Slot Usage (%)     90
  Naked Turns              2
Spaces Moved               4986
  Fastest Speed (%)        200
  Average Speed (%)        53
  Slowest Speed (%)        8
  Overloaded Moves         0
  Propulsion Burnouts      0
  Targets Rammed           2
  Cave-ins Triggered       1
  Teleports                0
Heaviest Build             179
  Greatest Overweight (x)  38
  Average Overweight (x)   1
Largest Inventory          26
  Most Items Carried       17
  Average Items Carried    11
Core Damage Taken          2979
Average Core Remaining (%) 67
  Depth 10 Exit            50
  Depth 9 Exit             70
  Depth 8 Exit             79
  Depth 7 Exit             74
  Depth 6 Exit             41
  Depth 5 Exit             90
  Depth 4 Exit             74
  Depth 3 Exit             72
  Depth 2 Exit             79
  Depth 1 Exit             44
Volleys Fired              629
  Largest                  5
  Hottest                  369
Shots Fired                1710
  Gun                      1128
  Cannon                   520
  Launcher                 62
  Special                  0
  Kinetic                  730
  Thermal                  413
  Explosive                58
  Electromagnetic          509
Shots Hit Robots           1118
  Core Hits                561
Overload Shots             3
  Energy Bleed             1
  Heat Surge               1
  Short Circuit            0
  Meltdown                 0
Melee Attacks              0
  Impact                   0
  Slashing                 0
  Piercing                 0
Damage Inflicted           38718
  Projectiles              29240
  Explosions               9459
  Melee                    0
  Ramming                  19
  Kinetic                  12213
  Thermal                  8694
  Explosive                8933
  Electromagnetic          8859
  Impact                   0
  Slashing                 0
  Piercing                 0
Self-Inflicted Damage      332
  Shots                    12
  Rammed                   2
Highest Temperature        531
  Average Temperature      123
  Shutdowns                5
  Energy Bleed             3
  Interference             2
  Matter Decay             1
  Short Circuit            5
  Damage (minor)           0
  Damage (major)           0
  Damage (core)            2
Highest Corruption         16
  Average Corruption       5
  Message Errors           25
  Parts Rejected           10
  Data loss (map)          44
  Data loss (database)     19
  Misfires                 6
  Misdirections            9
  Targeting Errors         36
  Weapon Failures          8
  Depth 8 End              3
  Depth 5 End              5
  Depth 4 End              3
  Depth 3 End              6
  Depth 2 End              16
  Depth 1 End              6
Haulers Intercepted        1
Robots Corrupted           22
Robots Melted              0
Power Chain Reactions      0
Tactical Retreats          24
Communications Jammed      0
Parts Field Recycled       0
  Retrieved Matter         0
Parts Merge Repaired       0
Drone Launches             2
  Drone Recoveries         0
Derelicts Assembled        0
Traps Triggered            0
  Indirectly               0
Trap Hack Attempts         0
  Triggered                0
  Disarmed                 0
  Reprogrammed             0
  Reused                   0
Machines Hacked            1
  Terminals                1
  Fabricators              0
  Repair Stations          0
  Recycling Units          0
  Scanalyzers              0
  Garrison Access          0
Total Hacks                2
  Successful               2
  Failed                   0
  Catastrophic             0
  Database Lockouts        0
  Manual                   0
  Unauthorized             2
  Terminals                2
  Fabricators              0
  Repair Stations          0
  Recycling Units          0
  Scanalyzers              0
  Garrison Access          0
Terminal Hacks             2
  Record                   0
  Part Schematic           0
  Robot Schematic          0
  Robot Analysis           0
  Prototype ID Bank        2
  Open Door                0
  Level Access Points      0
  Branch Access Points     0
  Emergency Access Points  0
  Machine Index            0
  Terminal Index           0
  Fabricator Index         0
  Repair Station Index     0
  Recycling Unit Index     0
  Scanalyzer Index         0
  Garrison Index           0
  Alert Level              0
  Unreport Threat          0
  Locate Traps             0
  Disarm Traps             0
  Reprogram Traps          0
  Dispatch Records         0
  Maintenance Status       0
  Security Status          0
  Surveillance Status      0
  Patrol Status            0
  Transport Status         0
  Investigation Status     0
  Extermination Status     0
  Reinforcement Status     0
  Assault Status           0
  Recall Investigation     0
  Recall Extermination     0
  Recall Reinforcements    0
  Recall Assault           0
  Hauler Manifests         0
  Registered Components    0
  Registered Prototypes    0
  Zone Layout              0
  Sector Layout            0
  Machine Controls         0
Hacking Detections         1
  Full Trace Events        0
  Feedback Events          0
  Feedback Corruption      0
  Feedback Part Disabled   0
  Feedback Blocked         0
Garrisons Disabled         4
Garrisons Compromised      0
Robot Schematics Acquired  0
  Robots Built             0
  Total Robot Build Rating 0
  Robot Fabrication Matter 0
  Robot Fabrication Time   0
Part Schematics Acquired   0
  Parts Built              0
  Total Part Build Rating  0
  Part Fabrication Matter  0
  Part Fabrication Time    0
Parts Repaired             0
  Part Repair Time         0
Parts Recycled             0
  Recycled Matter          0
  Retrieved Matter         0
Parts Scanalyzed           0
  Part Schematics Acquired 0
  Parts Damaged            0
Robot Analysis Total       0
Robots Rewired             0
Robots Hacked              0
  Non-combat               0
  Combat                   0
  Parse                    0
  Link                     0
  Rebooted                 0
  Overloaded               0
  Assimilated              0
  Manual                   0
  Secondary                0
Robot Hack Failures        0
Allies Hacked              0
Hacks Repelled             0
Total Allies               2
  Largest Group            2
  Highest-Rated Group      10
  Highest-Rated Ally       5
Total Orders               2
  STAY                     0
  GOTO                     0
  ROAM                     0
  FOLLOW                   0
  GUARD                    0
  AID                      0
  BUILD                    0
  TUNNEL                   0
  DROP                     0
  PICKUP                   0
  COLLECT                  0
  EXPLORE                  2
  RETURN                   0
Terraforming Orders        0
  Walls Built              0
  Walls Tunneled           0
Ally Attacks               0
  Total Damage             0
  Kills                    0
Allies Corrupted           0
Allies Melted              0
Peak Influence             1176
  Average Influence        365
  Final Influence          1176
Maximum Alert Level        4
  Low Security (%)         24
  Level 1                  43
  Level 2                  22
  Level 3                  6
  Level 4                  2
  Level 5                  0
Squads Dispatched          47
  Investigation            3
  Extermination            17
  Reinforcement            10
  Assault                  1
  Garrison                 16
Exploration Rate (%)       20
  Regions Visited          12
Garrisons Visited          0
  Relays Disabled          0
  Generators Disabled      0
Network Hubs Disabled      0
Turns Passed               12296
  Depth 11                 96
  Depth 10                 486
  Depth 9                  1041
  Depth 8                  722
  Depth 7                  1112
  Depth 6                  1720
  Depth 5                  716
  Depth 4                  1186
  Depth 3                  1454
  Depth 2                  1572
  Depth 1                  2191
  Scrapyard                96
  Materials                1858
  Factory                  4734
  Research                 3026
  Access                   2191
  Mines                    391

Prototype IDs
---------------
Heavy Ion Engine
High-density Centrium Heavy Treads
Improved Medium Laser
Cooled Plasma Rifle
Improved EM Shotgun
Improved Lightning Gun
Advanced Beam Cannon
Long-range Phase Cannon
Light Anti-matter Cannon
Scatter Rocket Array
Point Singularity Launcher
Advanced EMP Blaster
Coolant Network
Improved Energy Well
Gravity Neutralizing Apparatus
Advanced Dynamic Insulation System
Experimental Reclamation Unit
Precision Energy Filter

Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None

Game
------
Seed: 1453855568
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 115 min
Sessions: 9
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 130
ASCII: 0
Keyboard: 0
Movement: Mouse
Fullscreen: 1
Font: 16/Cogmind
Map View: 76x56


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57

[close]

In the course of this run I noticed a couple of things that are probably overpowered (disruption; stacked targeting computers).  It's late but I'll post some more thoughts tomorrow.  The pendulum has probably swung too far in Cogmind's direction! 

[Kyzrati]

Haha, wow, nice job (I merged your post into a new Alpha 6 discussion thread, since your post in the seed thread wasn't for an actual seed run, anyway )

The pendulum has generally been swinging in favor of Cogmind. Stacking targeting computers is certainly quite effective now, being processors you aren't likely to lose, so they could probably use a bonus nerf. That's a tough decision though, since they still need to be individually valuable enough to be worth attaching. Maybe they just won't scale so fast.

[zxc]

Hm, it's the same behavior for any part of the Processor or Hackware types, so it would seem fairly redundant once you know. But I'll look for a way. Not too easy to make it both unobtrusive and actually useful/informative on that particular page.

Right - I'm already getting used to it, but I just thought that perhaps a line in the description of processor items could be helpful for newer players. Just a random thought of course

The delay happens on the first action of any level of Factory size or larger, due to all the AIs starting up at once. That's because you always get the first turn. I'd rather not have the AIs acting before you, which would otherwise allow that time to be merged with the normal startup time (which would then also seem a bit long, too)...

Ah! That makes sense! I suppose you don't want to randomise starting 'energy' of AIs?

The code is too complicated, when combined with all the other related rules. Inventory/part management code is extremely convoluted as is, but making the assumption that multi-slot items cannot be involved makes it somewhat bearable, and multi-slot items are much less common anyway, so I decided it was more important to preserve my sanity on this point

This is very reasonable

[Kyzrati]

Yeah, right now all we have is a tutorial message the first time you attach a Processor/Hackware.

I could make some AIs slower to start up, yeah. It's probably a good idea to avoid that annoying few-second wait at the beginning, so I'll run some tests (not like you see most of them immediately, anyway--they're all off doing their own thing). Staggering some of the AI behavior is already how I keep the game from slowing down too much while you're running around, but I didn't apply that practice to the starting conditions. Thanks for the suggestion.

This is very reasonable

I'm glad you think so . Like the confirmation of Processor removal, it's one of those things that I might revisit at a later point if I feel up to it, though I imagine that while a confirmation feature is at least a possibility, I don't think I'll ever feel up to tackling the massive can of worms that would allow automated swapping of multiple slots!

[Happylisk]

That winning run I posted above was a weird one.  I basically decided to fill every empty utility slot with a heat sink when I didn't have anything better... and it worked .  With enough utility slots I had so many heat sinks they began to work as a basic armor, and they were super easy to replenish from grunts and programmers.  When I found a better utility like armor or a force field I'd swap that in, but once it was blown off it was right back to the heat sinks.  I feel like this was a variant of Decker's "stack lots of propulsion slots as a substitute for armor" strategy.  It had the added advantage that I could fired mass thermal volleys without any problem.

A few suggestions/observations:

1) This was my first game where Disruption played a big role.  Usually I don't see much disruption, because I only tend to go EM in the late game and enemies are usually corrupted or outright destroyed before they get shut down.

At one point, I was wandering around -2 with two heavy disruption cannons.  Funny against grunts and hunters, but I figured it would be the death of me when programmers showed up.  In the middle of a large hallway 3 programmers and 2 hunters showed up and I thought it was the end.

Well, turns out that even though programmers aren't going to take a lot EM damage, they'll still shut down real quick.  I shut down tons of programmers in Research.  It felt kind of weird - EM's big achilles heel was supposed to programmers, and I was effectively 2 shotting them.  Making programmers more resistant to disruption might be a good idea.  On the other hand, it took 2 heavy disruption cannons for this to happen so maybe it's not such a big deal. 

2) I love that targeting computers last forever now, but the stacking is too much.  The adv. targeting computer I found in -5 really helped.  By the time I had 3 in research, however, I had a 95% chance to hit basically everything.  It was a bit over the top.

Suggested fix: Implement a system of diminishing returns.  Your first computer gives you 100% of a bonus.  If you have two, you get 100% of the best one and 50% of the second.  With a third, you would get 100% + 50% + 25%.  So, stacking three advanced targeting computers would give you 16 + 8 + 4 = 28.  An improved computer and a basic one would give you 10; etc. 

3) Hunters need a slight buff.  I felt like in prior alphas they were too strong, but now they're probably too weak.  I highly doubt stacking frigging heat sinks would have worked like this in Alpha 5 - I bet the old terminators would have shredded me. 

[zxc]

That winning run I posted above was a weird one.  I basically decided to fill every empty utility slot with a heat sink when I didn't have anything better... and it worked .  With enough utility slots I had so many heat sinks they began to work as a basic armor, and they were super easy to replenish from grunts and programmers.  When I found a better utility like armor or a force field I'd swap that in, but once it was blown off it was right back to the heat sinks.  I feel like this was a variant of Decker's "stack lots of propulsion slots as a substitute for armor" strategy.  It had the added advantage that I could fired mass thermal volleys without any problem.

I actually used to do a lot of that around the time of the alpha challenge! (which was when I played more combat runs)

Interesting suggestions. I still haven't stacked processors yet though it looks good. Diminishing returns to stacking sounds fine but your suggestion of 100/50/25 etc sounds a bit drastic. They still take up slots, and offer no integrity+coverage to protect you. And stacking processors ought to be powerful!

[Happylisk]

Interesting suggestions. I still haven't stacked processors yet though it looks good. Diminishing returns to stacking sounds fine but your suggestion of 100/50/25 etc sounds a bit drastic. They still take up slots, and offer no integrity+coverage to protect you. And stacking processors ought to be powerful!

The numbers could certainly be tweaked - 100/66/33/etc, or even 100/75/50/etc.  On the other hand, I don't think this system of diminishing returns needs to be implemented for other processors (terrain scan processors, target analyzers, or even melee processors), and I don't like singling out just one type of processor - it feels heavy handed and artificial.  So maybe there's another solution that's more elegant.

Spoiler

Or maybe just throw some new enemies into Quarantine and Command that require you to stack 3 advanced targeting computers if you want even a chance at hitting them.  That works for me too!

[close]

[Kyzrati]

Ha, interesting tactic--stacking heat sinks. I'll have to play around with that.

I'd wait to see if anything needs to be done about disruption. Hvy. Disruption Cannons are one of the best disrupting weapons in the game, after all.

More important is the Hunter issue, which is a confluence of multiple issues that came with Alpha 6.

1. I reduced their weaponry across the board by one or two tiers each. This was mainly targeted at Terminators, trying to get them from three weapons down to two, but ended up nerfing them all a bit too much.

2. On top of that I accidentally screwed up their AI. Somehow I managed to turn off their willingness to fire through walls, which loses one of their unique capabilities.

#2 has already been fixed, and I will be looking into #1 again because they are certainly too weak now. I used to fear them more than anything but now I don't much care when I see them . We need to get that feeling back, for sure!

I don't really want to boost their main weapons back to what they were (part of their original power came from the fact that their weapons were near-equivalent to the depth rating, rather than somewhat weaker like most classes), since that means Cogmind can more easily acquire those better weapons and just stack them. I may instead give them all a third gun, a weaker machine gun-type weapon, which will mean they get some of that three-weapon volley time advantage that was making the Terminators scarier in Alpha 5. What do you think about that?

Interesting suggestions. I still haven't stacked processors yet though it looks good. Diminishing returns to stacking sounds fine but your suggestion of 100/50/25 etc sounds a bit drastic. They still take up slots, and offer no integrity+coverage to protect you. And stacking processors ought to be powerful!

Stacking Adv. Targeting Computers is pretty OP. True they take up a slot, but I think that since you don't really lose them now, their bonus shouldn't shoot up quite so much--those original numbers were based on the mechanics under which you'd likely only have them for a little while, so they've gone out of whack.

On a couple of my runs now I've ended up stacking several of those and hitting everything so easily is... well... too easy . It really made offense seem like the best defense since I could cheaply engage at range and always hit while enemies were missing me left and right. I do think that style should still be viable--it's fun!--but it could stand to not be quite so awesome. Rather than diminishing returns, which I think is too complex and adds a new barrier to player comprehension (we discussed this earlier before the Great Hacking Overhaul), I would instead suggest just changing the better computers, so more like Basic/Imp./Adv./Exp. = 5/7/9/15 instead of the 4/8/12/20 we have now.

I would also look at all other processors in a similar light to see what might need to be adjusted.

zxc's right, though, they do still take up a slot so that puts a lower limit on what can be done here.

@Happylisk spoiler: Hahaha... that's a good idea. There is already one new type of robot I don't think any of you have met yet which you will have a pretty hard time hitting

[Decker]

On a couple of my runs now I've ended up stacking several of those and hitting everything so easily is... well... too easy . It really made offense seem like the best defense since I could cheaply engage at range and always hit while enemies were missing me left and right. I do think that style should still be viable--it's fun!--but it could stand to not be quite so awesome. Rather than diminishing returns, which I think is too complex and adds a new barrier to player comprehension (we discussed this earlier before the Great Hacking Overhaul), I would instead suggest just changing the better computers, so more like Basic/Imp./Adv./Exp. = 5/7/9/15 instead of the 4/8/12/20 we have now.

I always considered advanced targeting computer to be the best utility. Particle charger makes a good difference too (with EM). I still need to complete my volley simulator to have some actual numbers to back up those claims.

For the targeting computer, how about making the bonus non-stackable? It would increase the value of other utilities. Otherwise, it's still in your best interest to stack targeting computers and ignore the other utilities, unless the nerf is so severe that you ignore them completely instead.

[Happylisk]

It looks like the current options on the table re: targeting computers are diminishing returns; across the board nerfs; or making targeting computers non-stackable.

My vote is for option two, making vanilla targeting computers every so slightly better, and making all other variants less effective.  This would still make extreme accuracy possible, at the cost of at least 3 slots if not 4.  It would be odd if a Cogmind who wanted to be an expert marksman bot couldn't pull it off even if it set its mind to it. 

As for hunters:  In the old alphas, they were definitely pinatas for early gauss rifles, KE penetrators, and railguns to an extent.  Removing their out of depth guns but giving them 3 kinetics might be a nice balance. 

One downside to this: access to abundant railguns is very important in Research and Access.  Sometimes I feel like my most effective volleys are 4-5 railguns with a target analyzer.  Easy to oneshot grunts and programmers with that, without an extreme matter cost. 

[Kyzrati]

I agree on the usefulness of railgun-type weapons, something I like to stack with Target Analyzers as well. I wouldn't want to make them such an obviously preferred way of tackling the late-game, which they sort of were before.

I'm in favor of option 2 for targeting computers, for the reasons stated. Regarding the specific numbers...

• 4/8/12/20 is the current progression
• 5/7/9/15 was my first suggestion above, as an attempt to maintain some sense of improvement between them (at least +2...). I also really like the idea of improving low-level computers a bit, hence the 4 -> 5, but all the others would be lower.
• 6/7/8/12 would be another option, which makes low-level computers even more valuable--perhaps just the right amount, though this also makes "better" computers not so much better than those which came before.

In terms of stacking at the Advanced end of things, where most of the stacking will happen, right now in Alpha 6 3xAdv gives you +36%, while in the second progression it would be +27%, and the third would be +24%. The last probably sounds the best in terms of mechanical balance.

[zxc]

That is the option I prefer as well, if they are actually OP. I will be sad if they are nerfed before I get a run stacking them though.

[Kyzrati]

Haha, Alpha 6 will be around for a while since Alpha 7 is going to take longer than the other releases, so you have plenty of time . I've ended up stacking them on most of my combat runs so far--seems like a common strategy under the new Processor coverage rules, one that's all too effective.

[Happylisk]

I think +24% is a good number for 3 advanced computers - on the other hand, I'm not so sure about 6/7 for basic and improved targeting computers.  3 basic computers would get you +18% which is not terribly less than 3 advanced (and very easy to quickly obtain).  I think it'd make regular processors too strong and it would lessen the value of the more powerful ones. 

What about 5/6/8/12?  You'd be happy to find normal ones, improved ones would be an upgrade albeit a slight one, and you'd really feel the difference with advanced and experimental. 

[Kyzrati]

I was waiting to see if anyone else had a comment there, but looks like no, so I'm back to say yeah I like the 5/6/8/12.

[Draco18s]

Looks good to me too, but I haven't had time to take a stab at a6 yet.

[Sherlockkat]

Finally managed to get up to access using speed/hacky build in alpha 6 . Died right in front of what I think was the exit. Lot of respect for speed runners. Speed/stealth runs are tense.

Score sheet:

Spoiler

Cogmind - Alpha 6

Name: Sherlockkat

---[ CORE DESTROYED ]---

Performance
-------------
Evolutions (9)             4500
Robots Destroyed (53)      265
Value Destroyed (1376)     1376
Prototype IDs (6)          120
Alien Tech Identified (0)  0
Bonus (0)                  0
              TOTAL SCORE: 6261

Cogmind
---------
Core Integrity             0/1600
Matter                     63/300
Energy                     50/50
System Corruption          11%
Temperature                Cool (0)
Location                   -1/Access

Parts
-------
Power (3)
Propulsion (6)
Utility (14)
  Hacking Suite
  Advanced Signal Interpreter
  Advanced ECM Suite
Weapon (2)

Inventory
-----------
Linear Accelerator
Q-Thruster
Improved Q-Thruster

Peak State
------------
Power
  Light Quantum Reactor
  Light Quantum Reactor
  Anti-Matter Reactor
Propulsion
  Improved Q-Thruster
  Impulse Thruster Array
  Q-Thruster
Utility
  Advanced Signal Interpreter
  Hacking Suite
  Hacking Suite
  Improved Sensor Array
  Enhanced Optical Array
  Advanced Transmission Jammer
  Improved ECM Suite
  Advanced Weight Redist. System
Weapon
  Enhanced Quantum Rifle
[Rating: 96]

Favorites
-----------
Power                      Light Nuclear Core
  Engine                   Light Ion Engine
  Power Core               Light Nuclear Core
  Reactor                  Anti-Matter Reactor
Propulsion                 Flight Unit
  Leg                      Aluminum Leg
  Hover Unit               Aerolev Unit
  Flight Unit              Flight Unit
Utility                    Hacking Suite
  Device                   Improved ECM Suite
  Processor                Melee Analysis Suite
  Hackware                 Hacking Suite
  Protection               Light Armor Plating
Weapon                     Improved Datajack
  Energy Gun               Medium Laser
  Energy Cannon            Advanced Beam Cannon
  Ballistic Gun            Assault Rifle
  Ballistic Cannon         Assault Cannon
  Launcher                 Rocket Launcher
  Impact Weapon            Powered Hammer
  Slashing Weapon          Katana
  Special Melee Weapon     Improved Datajack

Stats
-------
Bonus Breakdown            0
Classes Destroyed          12
  Worker                   4
  Builder                  1
  Tunneler                 1
  Recycler                 8
  Mechanic                 1
  Operator                 5
  Watcher                  3
  Swarmer                  8
  Grunt                    15
  Duelist                  1
  Sentry                   5
  Hunter                   1
NPCs Destroyed             0
Best Kill Streak           6
  Combat Bots Only         6
Matter Collected           1420
  Salvage Created          2055
Parts Attached             106
  Power                    24
  Propulsion               28
  Utility                  24
  Weapon                   30
Parts Lost                 44
  Power                    11
  Propulsion               16
  Utility                  10
  Weapon                   7
Average Slot Usage (%)     76
  Naked Turns              1
Spaces Moved               6235
  Fastest Speed (%)        526
  Average Speed (%)        289
  Slowest Speed (%)        25
  Overloaded Moves         113
  Propulsion Burnouts      0
  Targets Rammed           2
  Cave-ins Triggered       0
  Teleports                0
Heaviest Build             56
  Greatest Overweight (x)  7
  Average Overweight (x)   0
Largest Inventory          4
  Most Items Carried       4
  Average Items Carried    3
Core Damage Taken          2523
Average Core Remaining (%) 82
  Depth 10 Exit            57
  Depth 9 Exit             59
  Depth 8 Exit             53
  Depth 7 Exit             100
  Depth 6 Exit             100
  Depth 5 Exit             100
  Depth 4 Exit             94
  Depth 3 Exit             95
  Depth 2 Exit             81
Volleys Fired              140
  Largest                  2
  Hottest                  94
Shots Fired                229
  Gun                      153
  Cannon                   70
  Launcher                 6
  Special                  0
  Kinetic                  140
  Thermal                  77
  Explosive                6
  Electromagnetic          6
Shots Hit Robots           186
  Core Hits                72
Overload Shots             0
  Energy Bleed             0
  Heat Surge               0
  Short Circuit            0
  Meltdown                 0
Melee Attacks              74
  Impact                   0
  Slashing                 28
  Piercing                 0
Damage Inflicted           3386
  Projectiles              2388
  Explosions               267
  Melee                    728
  Ramming                  3
  Kinetic                  1549
  Thermal                  774
  Explosive                267
  Electromagnetic          65
  Impact                   0
  Slashing                 728
  Piercing                 0
Self-Inflicted Damage      121
  Shots                    2
  Rammed                   2
Highest Temperature        313
  Average Temperature      45
  Shutdowns                0
  Energy Bleed             1
  Interference             0
  Matter Decay             0
  Short Circuit            0
  Damage (minor)           0
  Damage (major)           0
  Damage (core)            0
Highest Corruption         11
  Average Corruption       3
  Message Errors           1
  Parts Rejected           0
  Data loss (map)          1
  Data loss (database)     1
  Misfires                 0
  Misdirections            1
  Targeting Errors         0
  Weapon Failures          0
  Depth 7 End              1
  Depth 2 End              1
Haulers Intercepted        0
Robots Corrupted           0
Robots Melted              0
Power Chain Reactions      0
Tactical Retreats          33
Communications Jammed      169
Parts Field Recycled       0
  Retrieved Matter         0
Parts Merge Repaired       0
Drone Launches             0
  Drone Recoveries         0
Derelicts Assembled        0
Traps Triggered            0
  Indirectly               0
Trap Hack Attempts         0
  Triggered                0
  Disarmed                 0
  Reprogrammed             0
  Reused                   0
Machines Hacked            28
  Terminals                24
  Fabricators              0
  Repair Stations          0
  Recycling Units          1
  Scanalyzers              0
  Garrison Access          3
Total Hacks                80
  Successful               29
  Failed                   51
  Catastrophic             11
  Database Lockouts        0
  Manual                   31
  Unauthorized             59
  Terminals                74
  Fabricators              0
  Repair Stations          0
  Recycling Units          1
  Scanalyzers              0
  Garrison Access          5
Terminal Hacks             24
  Record                   0
  Part Schematic           0
  Robot Schematic          0
  Robot Analysis           0
  Prototype ID Bank        1
  Open Door                0
  Level Access Points      4
  Branch Access Points     0
  Emergency Access Points  1
  Machine Index            0
  Terminal Index           0
  Fabricator Index         0
  Repair Station Index     0
  Recycling Unit Index     0
  Scanalyzer Index         0
  Garrison Index           0
  Alert Level              3
  Unreport Threat          4
  Locate Traps             3
  Disarm Traps             0
  Reprogram Traps          2
  Dispatch Records         0
  Maintenance Status       0
  Security Status          0
  Surveillance Status      0
  Patrol Status            1
  Transport Status         1
  Investigation Status     0
  Extermination Status     0
  Reinforcement Status     0
  Assault Status           0
  Recall Investigation     0
  Recall Extermination     0
  Recall Reinforcements    0
  Recall Assault           0
  Hauler Manifests         0
  Registered Components    0
  Registered Prototypes    0
  Zone Layout              2
  Sector Layout            2
  Machine Controls         0
Hacking Detections         21
  Full Trace Events        4
  Feedback Events          0
  Feedback Corruption      0
  Feedback Part Disabled   0
  Feedback Blocked         0
Garrisons Disabled         2
Garrisons Compromised      0
Robot Schematics Acquired  0
  Robots Built             0
  Total Robot Build Rating 0
  Robot Fabrication Matter 0
  Robot Fabrication Time   0
Part Schematics Acquired   0
  Parts Built              0
  Total Part Build Rating  0
  Part Fabrication Matter  0
  Part Fabrication Time    0
Parts Repaired             0
  Part Repair Time         0
Parts Recycled             0
  Recycled Matter          0
  Retrieved Matter         0
Parts Scanalyzed           0
  Part Schematics Acquired 0
  Parts Damaged            0
Robot Analysis Total       0
Robots Rewired             0
Robots Hacked              2
  Non-combat               9
  Combat                   2
  Parse                    0
  Link                     0
  Rebooted                 5
  Overloaded               4
  Assimilated              0
  Manual                   0
  Secondary                2
Robot Hack Failures        10
Allies Hacked              0
Hacks Repelled             0
Total Allies               1
  Largest Group            1
  Highest-Rated Group      7
  Highest-Rated Ally       7
Total Orders               1
  STAY                     0
  GOTO                     0
  ROAM                     0
  FOLLOW                   1
  GUARD                    0
  AID                      0
  BUILD                    0
  TUNNEL                   0
  DROP                     0
  PICKUP                   0
  COLLECT                  0
  EXPLORE                  0
  RETURN                   0
Terraforming Orders        0
  Walls Built              0
  Walls Tunneled           0
Ally Attacks               0
  Total Damage             0
  Kills                    0
Allies Corrupted           0
Allies Melted              0
Peak Influence             286
  Average Influence        53
  Final Influence          0
Maximum Alert Level        1
  Low Security (%)         91
  Level 1                  8
  Level 2                  0
  Level 3                  0
  Level 4                  0
  Level 5                  0
Squads Dispatched          23
  Investigation            4
  Extermination            3
  Reinforcement            16
  Assault                  0
  Garrison                 0
Exploration Rate (%)       19
  Regions Visited          11
Garrisons Visited          0
  Relays Disabled          0
  Generators Disabled      0
Network Hubs Disabled      0
Turns Passed               4318
  Depth 11                 63
  Depth 10                 756
  Depth 9                  805
  Depth 8                  825
  Depth 7                  284
  Depth 6                  145
  Depth 5                  76
  Depth 4                  293
  Depth 3                  242
  Depth 2                  345
  Depth 1                  484
  Scrapyard                63
  Materials                2386
  Factory                  798
  Research                 587
  Access                   484

Prototype IDs
---------------
Aerolev Unit
Improved VTOL Module
Experimental Cesium-ion Thruster
Improved Q-Thruster
Precision Beam Rifle
Heavy EM Shotgun
Advanced Beam Cannon
Improved Assault Rifle
Enhanced Autogun

Alien Tech Recovered
----------------------
None

Game
------
Seed: 1454782162
^Manual?: 0
Play Time: 82 min
Sessions: 1
Mod: N/A
Game No.: 149
ASCII: 1
Keyboard: 1
Movement: Numpad
Fullscreen: 0
Font: 12/Terminus
Map View: 83x54


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[close]

Materials was messy. I got into a lot of trouble due to my laissez-"let's go with the flow''-faire attitude. But, it is materials after all. I just blew everything up and it was fine. Got my flight units and ECM suites.

Factory was a breeze. I assimilated an operator and he was a total bro. He was with me for 3 floors and revealed every secret door and every trap in my line of sight. Extremely useful. I forgot that he wasn't as quick as I was and ran past a sentry. Poor guy got one-shotted as he tried to follow . Gathered a critical mass of hacking utilities and picked up better flight units.

I think I am starting to understand research after dying there couple of times. In stark contrast to factory, research is almost linear with very few loops and labyrinthine. The shortest path between any two points is almost never a straight line. I managed to hack the exit locations in both -3 and -2 and I still had a hard time getting to the exit as I had nothing that could blow through walls. Ended up flowing through windy passages and got into a lot more trouble than I should. I blundered a little bit towards the end and lost my flight units to a couple of sentries guarding the exit. This was probably the start of my downfall.

Access was very factoryesqe. Huge corridors and quite loopy. I managed to gather a couple of flight units. But, I wasn't as fast I used to be and lost a couple of key utilities. I wasn't able to find any terminals. So, no luck with hacking. Blew up an energy cycler. That made them mad. Soon, I was chased by programmers and other misc nasties.

Spoiler

Died on front of something that looked like a phase wall. It was guarded by two behemoths and two hunters. I think that was the exit. So close...

[close]

General thoughts on hacking:

Hacking feels quite viable and powerful as long as you are able to make use of it :p. One thing is that scanalyzers, fabricators, recycling units and repairing units have marginal use and encountering one is always a bummer. I am always thinking "Man, if only it was a terminal or a garrison..". I am guessing this will change in the future. I think garrisons are cool because you can seal them and that reduces the AI's options which is great. Also, question: This quote is from Kyzrati's garrison access post.

That said, there is another advantage to destroying them: For each Garrison Access taken out of commission, Programmer dispatch frequency is further reduced.

I know that Kyzrati said this was not the case in the stream, but does sealing the garrison access points reduce prog dispatch? Do you need to destroy them? Shouldn't sealing have the same effect?

Access(Main) is the god hack that we all try to pull off. But, even the regular terminal hacks which reveal local information are quite powerful. The hack that reveals secret doors is great and saved my butt quite a few times in research. The one that reveals patrol status is also good. Question: Does enumerate(surveillance) reveal watcher locations? In my opinion, watchers are easily one of the scariest enemies and they can be quite tricky to manage when you don't have transmission jammers. Trying to decide which way to flee when a watcher emits a distress signal can be quite tricky, especially if you dodged patrols in the first place. Then, you can't run back either.

@Kyzrati: I initially planned to stay off Cogmind until alpha 7. But, the mechanic changes were far too tempting and I played more than I intended too. Now, that I managed to get to access, I think I can stop playing for a while. I will probably skip the next alpha as my life is going to get a bit more chaotic in the next few months. Good luck with alpha 7.


p.s: I don't think the score sheet was uploaded as I was offline. So I am attaching it here.

[zxc]

@Sherlockkat
Your observations of research and access match my initial thoughts from some months back. The structure of research really makes it tough for cogmind, with any build. You get way too much alert level with combat and the labyrinthine layout leads to forced encounters with stealth. Probably best in research is a hover build with good ability to both fight and stealth around. Access is definitely harder than post-Alpha Challenge. It seems right I think.

Re: non-terminal machines, they are definitely much less useful than terminals. They are hard to make use of at all, even with some hacking items to make life easier. I think K has stuff planned, otherwise this would be a major target of rebalancing I would think. Even at the risk of making them too powerful, it may be better than the situation now where they are nearly entirely ignored. At times I make use of them, but it's far from every game, or even every second game. Consider how much needs to go right as a speedy hacky build (which should make more use of this than other builds): you need to acquire a worthwhile schematic; usually this means you need to have a useful low level part like a hacking suite, and then successfully scan it (often will take multiple machines and risks destroying the item); you need a matter container, and it needs matter; you need to successfully fabricate the item (often multiple machines, again); and you need to stick around for a number of turns or return later. I rarely get past the first stage, which is to get a useful schematic. Level 2/3 scan machines and fabricators are too difficult to get anything done, which limits possible items to low level ones. It so happens that low level items are generally just not that useful, except for hacking suites, storage units and flight units. I usually need to have the item first to scan it, except when lucky enough to get the schematic by terminal or the force hack. It's possible I'm wrong about the current utility of non-terminal machines, as I haven't specifically targeted them in my runs (opportunity cost has always seemed too high), but I'm also yet to see anyone make good use of them.

What is the reasoning behind having two hacks to seal a garrison instead of one?

[Sherlockkat]

.....the labyrinthine layout leads to forced encounters with stealth

I wonder whether this problem could be solved via item design. For instance, a common late/mid game item which gives you "+X% chance for enemies not to notice you" with fancy name like "quantum decohorence generator" or something like that and it can stack. This wouldn't be all that useful for a combat build because you would be far too slow to rely on this. But, when you are zipping around at 25 speed.... This can let us dive through groups of enemies which is what sometimes navigating through research as a speed demon comes down to.

Re non-terminal machines: @zxc:  I agree with pretty much everything you said. The scan/fab loop is pretty cumbersome given that a single low-level item is never going to change the flow of the game. I have no concrete ideas to improve the system. But, I think I would like the system if the balance was such that it would let us craft one or two off-curve items without the tedium per game just so that we can iron the kinks in our build.

What is the reasoning behind having two hacks to seal a garrison instead of one?

I wasn't suggesting any changes in that direction. Was merely curious what the interaction between sealing garrisons and prog dispatch is.

[Kyzrati]

Lot of respect for speed runners.

Agreed! Much more tense in my opinion, without a bunch of armor and weapons to hide behind . I've been trying to do faster runs in recent weeks and end up falling back into combat mode most of the time... It takes a brave Cogmind to do a speed run. Sounds funny to say that since as zxc puts it you just run from everything

I assimilated an operator and he was a total bro.

That's good to hear, since I haven't done that yet and should soon. They have so many benefits now, if you can just keep them alive.

You were quite close to winning!

This quote is from Kyzrati's garrison access post.

That said, there is another advantage to destroying them: For each Garrison Access taken out of commission, Programmer dispatch frequency is further reduced.

I know that Kyzrati said this was not the case in the stream, but does sealing the garrison access points reduce prog dispatch? Do you need to destroy them? Shouldn't sealing have the same effect?

Okay, first of all, sorry about the misinformation. The blog post is of course correct (it always trumps whatever I think I remember at some later date )--destroying a garrison does reduce the Programmer dispatch frequency. Man, I really should destroy those things more often! And actually, yes, sealing them has the exact same effect, so do it if you can.

About the other machines, they aren't as useful but there are plans to improve them, gradually anyway. They've been pretty low priority so I'm getting to them bit by bit. At least brute force hacks gave some of them secondary uses, and another one is coming with Alpha 7 that will make Recycling Units somewhat more useful. Still lots more to do on that front, because I too generally pass up other machines except for the very occasional coincidental need.

So yeah as zxc puts it the opportunity cost for these machines is currently too high, something that will certainly change in future releases. (Fabricating in particular is an area that will be examined in detail, but as a secondary/supporting feature I want to reconsider the design after most other elements are already in place. But also remember that when you fabricate something, you usually don't just get one of them--a single build run will create several of the same item, or even robot.)

What is the reasoning behind having two hacks to seal a garrison instead of one?

One is the direct hack, which is difficult but allows you to seal it unnoticed and has no effect on your presence. All brute force hacks increase the alert level, quite a lot in the case of a garrison jam, but this is something you won't really know yet unless you're paying very close attention to alert level (later there will be NPCs that provide you with this information).

There are three ways to disable a garrison access, which vary from relatively easy but with significant alert drawbacks, to relatively difficult but no other drawbacks:

1. Blow it up
2. Jam it.
3. Seal it.

Question: Does enumerate(surveillance) reveal watcher locations?

That's exactly what it does, but its usefulness is only so great because Watchers move a lot, so your intel will go stale before too long.

Trying to decide which way to flee when a watcher emits a distress signal can be quite tricky, especially if you dodged patrols in the first place.

I have a new feature planned that you might like (although I haven't confirmed it yet, I've gotten close to implementing it several times but it keeps getting put off as lower priority): When distress signals go out they'll trace a path on the screen showing the direction of the signal.

.....the labyrinthine layout leads to forced encounters with stealth

I wonder whether this problem could be solved via item design. For instance, a common late/mid game item which gives you "+X% chance for enemies not to notice you" with fancy name like "quantum decohorence generator" or something like that and it can stack.

Even before alpha release I had an idea to possibly convert or enhance ECM mechanics by way of a system like this, but it's been on the back burner for a very long time.

There are multiple specialized utility mechanics (some of which don't exist yet) that I want to look into later, possibly altogether as a group which is one reason nothing's been done on that front yet. In terms of design, I'd like to get much of the main world complete before using some new mechanics or adjustments to existing ones to smooth out any rough edges.

[Sherlockkat]

It takes a brave Cogmind to do a speed run. Sounds funny to say that since as zxc puts it you just run from everything

zxc wasn't kidding. You literally just run from everything. Getting shot at is sometimes the best thing. That's 2 full turns before they can act. At 30 speed, you can move roughly 8~9 spaces and you are out of their sight. The ECMs takes care of the rest. True story: The bit which is guarded by behemoths and sentries at extension. I went there twice as a speed build and just flew past the lot, no effs given and took no damage.

I assimilated an operator and he was a total bro.
That's good to hear, since I haven't done that yet and should soon. They have so many benefits now, if you can just keep them alive.

You were quite close to winning!

Bullying operators as a speed build is the best. It is especially hilarious when they are running up a one tile corridor to lock the terminal down and you overtake them and they can't get past you and try to run all the way back to find an alternate route .

Good to know about the garrisons. Sealing them is not that difficult. You just need 2~3 hacking suites.

I have a new feature planned that you might like (although I haven't confirmed it yet, I've gotten close to implementing it several times but it keeps getting put off as lower priority): When distress signals go out they'll trace a path on the screen showing the direction of the signal.

Wait!! Watchers emit directional signals??  The feature sounds awesome. I wonder whether it makes it too easy to deal with watchers though. Part of what makes them scary is not knowing which way to run.

ECM suites and the "+x% for enemies not to notice you" can co-exist, no? (btw, what does ECM stand for?)

Request: Would you be able to upload my score sheet ot the high score list  ? Was offline and I am fairly certain that it didn't get uploaded.

[Kyzrati]

Awesome dodging at the Extension junction .

Spoiler

Did you take on the Cetus Guard after that? Or just detour to Factory?

[close]

Wait!! Watchers emit directional signals??  The feature sounds awesome. I wonder whether it makes it too easy to deal with watchers though. Part of what makes them scary is not knowing which way to run.

Yeah, I agree it might detract a little from the game. Maybe that feature needs to be enabled by a utility (an existing one since it's too small an advantage for a unique utility).

ECM suites and the "+x% for enemies not to notice you" can co-exist, no? (btw, what does ECM stand for?)

Yeah, probably co-exist. That's what I have in my notes on looking at them again. (Haven't gone over that stuff for months.) ECM.

Request: Would you be able to upload my score sheet ot the high score list  ? Was offline and I am fairly certain that it didn't get uploaded.

No problem! It'll be there for tomorrow's update.

[Sherlockkat]

Regarding extension junction and beyond:

Spoiler

I barely survived the Cetus guards when I was a combat build. They are such tanks. Maybe I was using the wrong weapons. I don't think my speed build would have been able to take them on . Though, Do I have to fight them? I wonder....hmm...ideas...will try later

[close]

No problem! It'll be there for tomorrow's update.

Awesome!!