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Author Topic: Alpha 4/4b Discussion  (Read 13307 times)

zxc

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Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« on: November 03, 2015, 03:54:55 AM »

A lot of goodies have been added in Alpha 4, so I figured we should have a thread to discuss the new version.

I wonder if people will be trying out games in Alpha 4 before playing the weekly seed, or have the weekly seed be their first go at the new version. I'm undecided on which I'll go for yet.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 09:32:56 AM by Kyzrati »
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Kyzrati

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Re: Alpha 4 Discussion
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2015, 04:31:24 AM »

Happy to hear what everyone thinks about the new stuff. A good many of the features came out of discussions here on the forums, while just as many are things I never brought up before. Plus, of course, secrets ::)

Note that some important changes we've discussed didn't make it into Alpha 4, notably Storage Unit hoarding and the propulsion mechanics overhaul. (NOT to start those discussions again here--they've pretty much played out for now, just pointing them out. Although I would add that in this latest version my playtest combat Cogmind is nearing the surface and has never used anything but a single Hcp. unit, at most.*)

But yeah, let's focus on the new changelog :P. Lots of good stuff in there. Also, I'll be posting a design overview of Garrison Access machines on my blog tomorrow.

Edit: *I believe your new partial immunity to critical hits is a game changer in terms of attrition rate... so I guess this discussion does have some place here.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 06:43:08 AM by Kyzrati »
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Morrays

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Re: Alpha 4 Discussion
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2015, 04:32:01 AM »

I prefer playing a little bit with  the new Alpha 4, before playing the weekly seed. The game has a lot of good new feature so i'm gonna play a little bit before playing the weekly seed.
Btw I just beat my high score in my first play.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 04:34:33 AM by Morrays »
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zxc

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Re: Alpha 4 Discussion
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2015, 07:28:41 AM »

The ' and ; shortcuts are really nice :)

Game seems harder and more chaotic with garrisons and the infection scenarios that seem to happen sometimes.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Alpha 4 Discussion
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2015, 07:57:55 AM »

The ' and ; shortcuts are really nice :)
I'm glad the player who asked for them thinks so ;)

with garrisons and the infection scenarios
Do you mean separately or together? As in the latter as it relates to Garrison Access machines, or in addition to garrisons themselves? That and do you mean inside garrisons, or garrison access machines?

Overall I found Alpha 4 to be the easiest version yet, though I've probably played fewer runs than you have just yet. I have, however, encountered the infested version before, and thought it was pretty exciting :)

That said, I was hesitant to add that situation because, as you say, it can be quite chaotic and the design goal of the main complex is to not be chaotic--that's the purpose served by some of the branches.

...

And now that I've looked at the data, it looks like Alpha 4 contains a rather serious oversight :/

That situation is supposed to be extremely rare, but I surprisingly forgot two things there in my rush to finish Alpha 4: 1) Didn't apply the rarity at all, and 2) Special garrison access situations weren't even capped at one per floor, as intended, meaning most garrisons in the mid-game are being converted to this kind! Ouch.

Looks like I'll be putting together an Alpha 4b shortly. Like now :P

Thanks for bringing this to my attention! (Ignore my earlier questions...)

Alpha 4b is going to come with another bombshell of an improvement as well, based on a Twitter report from a couple days ago.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Alpha 4 Discussion
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2015, 09:32:59 AM »

As you can see the new version has been released, thanks!

I've also updated the thread title, since any further discussion may as well continue here.
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zxc

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Re: Alpha 4 Discussion
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2015, 09:46:53 AM »

The ' and ; shortcuts are really nice :)
I'm glad the player who asked for them thinks so ;)
;D

Edit: It's actually nicer than I originally thought it'd be, because when flying with a melee weapon you need to be careful not to hit robots when you intend to fly over them and vice versa. This hotkey makes it more convenient to turn off your melee weapon after you're done fighting without needing to be constantly aware of changing letter hotkeys for the melee weapon.

with garrisons and the infection scenarios
Do you mean separately or together? As in the latter as it relates to Garrison Access machines, or in addition to garrisons themselves? That and do you mean inside garrisons, or garrison access machines?
My first decent-length game in Alpha 4 (second overall - first one ended in short order somewhere early), so I'm not really sure what I'm even referring to :)

Overall I found Alpha 4 to be the easiest version yet, though I've probably played fewer runs than you have just yet. I have, however, encountered the infested version before, and thought it was pretty exciting :)
I'm very happy to keep holding opposing views to you :). I actually haven't played very much - but you've probably noticed that I oscillate between playing/thinking about a game a ton (around first few wins and during tournament), and very little (the last several weeks). This is more a function of my internal gaming cycle and free time than anything else though :)

That said, I was hesitant to add that situation because, as you say, it can be quite chaotic and the design goal of the main complex is to not be chaotic--that's the purpose served by some of the branches.
Chaos can be really fun though (and if it's really rare, as below, I think this is quite an epic scenario). I wasn't complaining about the chaos, but rather just making an observation about it as I thought this level of chaos was normal for Alpha 4.

...

And now that I've looked at the data, it looks like Alpha 4 contains a rather serious oversight :/

That situation is supposed to be extremely rare, but I surprisingly forgot two things there in my rush to finish Alpha 4: 1) Didn't apply the rarity at all, and 2) Special garrison access situations weren't even capped at one per floor, as intended, meaning most garrisons in the mid-game are being converted to this kind! Ouch.

Looks like I'll be putting together an Alpha 4b shortly. Like now :P

Thanks for bringing this to my attention! (Ignore my earlier questions...)

Alpha 4b is going to come with another bombshell of an improvement as well, based on a Twitter report from a couple days ago.

Happy to accidentally prompt a bugfix! ;D

It was actually really fun and hectic as a fast flyer without sensors. I think my take on it might've been a bit different had I gone down quickly, but this Cogmind's still kicking in -4 (it's actually the same one that prompted the whine thread about stasis traps - not sure how it isn't dead yet). I took this screenshot shortly after the trap to highlight an oddity with the exit placement (hopefully not the cause of Alpha 4c ::))
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This one's not even my weekly seed yet, so I'll need to hastily finish this one and the seed tomorrow night if I can :o

Edit: I just realised why I've stopped receiving email notifications about replies to certain topics recently. They've been going to my Gmail spam folder. Oh noes!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 10:03:15 AM by zxc »
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Happylisk

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Re: Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2015, 11:12:01 AM »

That accuracy bug is a BFD as Joe Biden would say.  Very interested to see how the change plays out.  It's funny how confirmation bias works.  I try as much as I can to pop in/pop out of rooms when I see enemies coming to get the stationary accuracy bonus.  I always assumed it was working but I guess not.

I have Wednesday off and the lady friend's out of town.  Let's see if I can get a combat cogmind to the surface. 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 11:20:57 AM by Happylisk »
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Re: Alpha 4 Discussion
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2015, 06:49:12 PM »

Chaos can be really fun though (and if it's really rare, as below, I think this is quite an epic scenario). I wasn't complaining about the chaos, but rather just making an observation about it as I thought this level of chaos was normal for Alpha 4.
Yeah sorry, "complain" is generally a strong word, and I certainly didn't mean it that strongly. Should've found a better word or at least put it in quotes, but it was late and I was rushing the release =p

Happy to accidentally prompt a bugfix! ;D

It was actually really fun and hectic as a fast flyer without sensors.
I found it pretty exciting myself, but in my longest playthrough just happened to not run by many mid-game garrisons access points, so I didn't even notice something was off. Now that I think of it I did meet two such access points in a relatively short period, which should be extremely unlikely.

I took this screenshot shortly after the trap to highlight an oddity with the exit placement (hopefully not the cause of Alpha 4c ::))
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Ugh, still. Certainly not a reason to bother with 4c, but not really intended, either.

Not sure where this one's still happening, but I've narrowed it down further because you reported a similar issue in 3c and I fixed one possible source of corridor stairs. (Actually, what's the seed on that run? I can trace those stairs to where they're coming from.)

Edit: I just realised why I've stopped receiving email notifications about replies to certain topics recently. They've been going to my Gmail spam folder. Oh noes!
Yeah, this is suddenly a problem unfortunately, and it's even happening to me despite the fact that I always declare it not spam. Gmail of all places has now marked the gridsagegames forum as a source of spam :(. Wonderful... I was just yesterday looking at how to deal with this and there are no perfect solutions, only technical stuff that may or may not work, and all of which would take a bunch of time away from development while I try to figure it out. That sucks.

For now I'd hope that members can indicate that these things are not spam, since Gmail supposedly "learns" this over time...

That accuracy bug is a BFD as Joe Biden would say.  Very interested to see how the change plays out.  It's funny how confirmation bias works.  I try as much as I can to pop in/pop out of rooms when I see enemies coming to get the stationary accuracy bonus.  I always assumed it was working but I guess not.
I'm glad it was discovered around now, which happens to be the perfect opportunity. My comment on Reddit is applicable here:

Quote
This could have some interesting implications...

I mean, the potential for accuracy bonuses via later Targeting Computers for example can now much more easily give you near-perfect accuracy (there's a cap at 95%). Even before this I didn't have much trouble reaching the cap, or otherwise very high accuracy. It might be necessary to nerf them a bit.

Either way, I'm for keeping the new/intended bonus as is--based on earlier data I was already considering an across-the-board improvement to Cogmind's base accuracy. Now I don't have to =p

I have Wednesday off and the lady friend's out of town.  Let's see if I can get a combat cogmind to the surface. 
I'm going to post the garrisons overview today, so maybe they could play a role in your adventures. Or maybe not--they're kinda dangerous ;D
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zxc

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Re: Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2015, 12:59:23 AM »

Small thing I noticed: using ; to toggle propulsion modes will activate Overloading on propulsion where possible, and will turn off all other propulsion when that happens. Is this intended? I don't think it's useful to activate overloading on some propulsion while spare propulsion is kept off.
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Re: Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2015, 01:08:39 AM »

Nope, good catch.

Internally the command works by simulating activation input for all active applicable parts, which for active but not overloaded propulsion means overloading it. Oops, I had forgotten that some propulsion can be overloaded--it will work as it currently does with weapons: Those which are overloadable are properly cycled off by continuing to feed activate commands until they're actually off.

(Garrisons and other new mechanics took so much time that I missed out on more in-depth playtesting opportunities for the latter few days of mini features, including this one.)
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zxc

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Re: Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2015, 02:00:29 AM »

The seed for the weird exit was 1446661603. Run ended in death on -3. Ran around constantly looking for an exit but I found none, and ended up trapping myself and taking too much damage from programmers leading to eventual death.
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Re: Alpha 4 Discussion
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2015, 04:03:44 AM »

Edit: I just realised why I've stopped receiving email notifications about replies to certain topics recently. They've been going to my Gmail spam folder. Oh noes!
Yeah, this is suddenly a problem unfortunately, and it's even happening to me despite the fact that I always declare it not spam. Gmail of all places has now marked the gridsagegames forum as a source of spam :(. Wonderful... I was just yesterday looking at how to deal with this and there are no perfect solutions, only technical stuff that may or may not work, and all of which would take a bunch of time away from development while I try to figure it out. That sucks.

For now I'd hope that members can indicate that these things are not spam, since Gmail supposedly "learns" this over time...
Good news--I talked with the host and it appears this might now be resolved :D

I'm not sure how long it will require to take effect, but outgoing mails should now be properly configured to make it past some new Gmail requirements.
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Re: Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2015, 06:04:49 PM »

I'm back!

After a long and grueling semester I'm finally giving Alpha 4 a go.  I didn't get much time with Alpha 3 so the traps are still fresh for me.

Digging the Garrisons, but those Phase Walls confused me (I admit I had to read the blog to understand how they worked, as I found it a little confusing I couldn't pass through them even when a Grunt was holding it open for me.  I presume I couldn't get through as I would be trapped if I did).  I did find an exit, but couldn't use it.  I presumed (at the time) I needed to destroy all the Garrison Relays to gain access, but was quickly overwhelmed after exploring a third quarter.

Didn't gain any benefits (yet!) for going into a Garrison, although I can't imagine that will stop me trying:)  I believe I didn't go in with enough fire-power and the area goes completely counter to my hide-in-a-room/doorway-and-wait strategy.  I was able to emulate it somewhat by creating a nook where a Garrison Relay used to be.  Now that I understand the layout more it should be a little easier to handle (but certainly not easy!).
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Re: Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2015, 06:56:58 PM »

Hey jimmijamjams, welcome back!

Garrisons you really need to be prepared for, though as is there's no in-game way to know exactly what the ideal preparation entails without some experimentation on your part. Hints about that is something I'll want to add later (of course players can learn much of what they're about by reading the blog posts).

Overall there are lots of potential benefits to Garrisons, though nothing guaranteed (beyond the hacking advantage) so they're kinda like a lottery (unless you're going for those hacking benefits). If anything they're worth extra points--something to consider if you're in a good position on a given floor.

You will need more firepower than you probably think :). I wanted that to be a key feature of Garrisons--you're not going to go racing and dodging through them. Confrontation is inevitable, as it should be. That said, you can still try your best to avoid attracting too much attention at once.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Happylisk

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Re: Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2015, 06:58:54 AM »

Since we don't have a general discussion thread, I'm just gonna stream of conscious here.  These are my general thoughts about 4b.  There are going to be spoilers below so read at your own peril.

Weapons:  I'm a big fan of the changes to thermal and EM.  Thermal weapons are worth picking up now and saving for programmers.  EM weapons are no longer the king of looting processors, and spectrum is a fun double-edged sword.  It can be really effective against packs of enemies, but it can be dangerous when it happens too close to you.

The new hacks:  Trojan(Botnet) is basically a substitute for deep network scanners at the cost of raising the security level.  I haven't played around with it too much, but it's very interesting.  Trojan(Track) is less handy in my experience.  In big factory levels, I don't really care what's going on way behind me.  Force(Overload) is very interesting; I imagine this one will be best used to prepare ambushes (have to be careful with it - the first time I used it I hung around and fried myself).  I don't really care about Force(Jam) too much, cause if I really want a Garrison disabled I just blow it up.  I imagine it'll be a handier hack for stealth/speed builds.

Garrisons as Machines:  Great addition.  It severely hampers, but doesn't kill, the "use programmers to find the stairs" trick.  It also taught me more about the mechanics of the game.  I had map with a Garrison right next to a terminal.  I tried to hack the terminal and got locked out.  A grunt instantly popped out of the garrison to investigate.  Although I knew that lockouts cause investigation squads to be dispatched, seeing it happen was quite jarring.  I've significantly reduced how many times I'll allow myself to get locked out of a terminal.   Another time, I was fighting some grunts in research near a Garrison and a sentry popped out.  I imagine that was a Reinforcement squad.  Seeing it happen up close helps you understand the game mechanics better.

Garrison as a map: Hooboy.   High risk/reward indeed.  I'm not sure how to incorporate them into a run to reliably get a benefit (besides the hack).  As K said, you gotta be beefy just to go in there with a good chance of making it out.  I really like that this is a new way to get allies without mucking around with fabricating.  My tentative view on Garrisons is that if I've in a factory or research level, I haven't been on the level too long, and I'm in good shape, go in.  There's a chance of going straight to the next level which is worth it.  If you've already been on the level for awhile, chances are the exit is close so it's probably not worth it (and you're probably overdue for a drop in the security level, which the Garrison will certainly not do).

Unrelated thoughts on Alpha 5: Two of my runs in the last week ended on -2.  In both runs, I artificially kept my inventory low.  During the tournament, I usually had an inventory of 20-40.  This time I intentionally limited myself to around 15.  It really, really, really made things harder.  My second run probably would have won if I had my full inventory, as opposed to leaving caches half looted.  If changes are going to happen to push back against the huge inventory meta, I think they need to be balanced with 1) a further reduction of cogmind Armor to crit vulnerablity (you lose armor so fast, jesus) and 2) quality of life improvements to fabrication to make this easier and less tedious. 

Finally, is Armory a new thing?  In the tournament I never found it.  My last 3 runs now have found the (locked) entrance to the Armory.   

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Re: Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2015, 07:45:39 PM »

Since we don't have a general discussion thread, I'm just gonna stream of conscious here.  These are my general thoughts about 4b.
Wait... aren't you posting in the general discussion thread for 4/4b? :o

Overall it sounds like you're pleased with the direction and new features, so that's great.

EM is a lot more interesting now, nerfed but even more effective in some situations, as you've discovered.

More new hacks (all the rest of them) will be announced via blog post next week :D

Garrisons as Machines:  Great addition.  It severely hampers, but doesn't kill, the "use programmers to find the stairs" trick.  It also taught me more about the mechanics of the game.
I was expecting, and hoping, that would be the case. It was possible to figure that stuff out before, though not at all easy or likely since you'd have to use hacking to track squads and really see what was going on, but almost no one was doing that and therefore didn't associate the events. The plan has been to later allow NPCs to inform you of those less obvious mechanics, but for now Garrison Access does a good job of teaching them as well.

My tentative view on Garrisons
Spot on; I agree with everything you say :)

If changes are going to happen to push back against the huge inventory meta, I think they need to be balanced with 1) a further reduction of cogmind Armor to crit vulnerablity (you lose armor so fast, jesus) and 2) quality of life improvements to fabrication to make this easier and less tedious. 
Maybe removing armor vulnerability to criticals would be fine (they've never been destroyed by them, just take double damage instead), at least for now to see what the result is. My fear is that armor would become too good if you stack enough of it, and everyone would want to do that to ensure survival... (I do want to eventually revisit fabrication as well, though I'm not sure the tedium there can be reduced much further than it already has been. A discussion for another time.)

Finally, is Armory a new thing?  In the tournament I never found it.  My last 3 runs now have found the (locked) entrance to the Armory.   
Not new, no. It's been there you've just apparently been randomly finding it more often. I'm pretty sure there's only one entrance, so it's easy to miss if you're not looking for it. It'll be locked for a while, though--need to do quite a few other branches first. I'll be working on Recycling and Extension next, for Alpha 5.
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Re: Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2015, 07:29:11 AM »

Had a run get to Access.  So close to a win.  It was my first time seriously using a long range terrain scanner and an advanced terrain scan processor.  Holy moly.  With those things factory and Research -3 were so damn easy.  Like an idiot, I kept it on during a fight in Research -2 (even after thinking I should really take this off) and  the scanner got blown off.  Stumbling around Research -2 blind led to me getting to Access basically naked.  I streaked around the level and found the exit (can't say whether it was the main one or the locked one) but died due to a string of swarmers on my ass before I could hack the doors open. 

First time going into a Garrison during a serious run.  I went in on Factory -6, found the exit quick, and it got me to Factory -5.  Definitely going into more of them in the future. 

Some Trojan questions: 1) When you Force(Overload) a fabricator, will enemies attack the machine?  It seems like you want to overload fabricators in hallways rather than rooms, to zap enemy patrols as they come by.  I'm wondering if the enemy will fight back.  Also, are you on the hook threat level-wise for enemies the fabricator kills?  2) The Garrison trojans that either divert the enemy or reprogram them, do they effect programmer dispatches that happen to come from the infected Garrison? 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 07:38:41 AM by Happylisk »
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Re: Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2015, 07:38:41 AM »

I'm guessing good terrain scanning capability is generally underrated by most players. Very useful. My preferred way to navigate Research.

1) When you Force(Overload) a terminal, will enemies attack the terminal?
No, but couldn't you just hack it and see? :P. Hallways are sort of a good idea, yes, but you'll discover that's not necessarily true... Depends on the hallway and circumstances!

2) The Garrison trojans that either divert the enemy or reprogram them, do they effect programmer dispatches that happen to come from the infected Garrison? 
Good question--yes. They'll affect absolutely anything that comes out, as long as that particular Garrison Access is the one that's infected. (As indicated on the blog, it only affects the next dispatch; didn't want that to escalate too much there...)
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Happylisk

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Re: Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2015, 07:51:37 AM »

No, but couldn't you just hack it and see? :P.


Testing was inconclusive!  I hacked one when enemies were next to me, and although they kept only shooting at me I couldn't tell if that was because they don't target overloaded fabricators or due to targetting priority. 

I guess I could've overloaded one, and then popped into a nearby room with a robot scanner activated to see enemy behavior around an overloaded fab without a cogmind nearby, but that suspiciously sounded like a lot of work and I am very lazy :)
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Re: Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2015, 08:20:59 AM »

Haha, all true :)
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Re: Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2015, 07:49:20 AM »

Yet another random question: When's the earliest you could hack a schematic for a rating 5 item? 
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Kyzrati

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Re: Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2015, 08:22:40 AM »

For non-prototypes*, the formula is
Code: [Select]
RATING < MAP_LEVEL + TERMINAL_FUNCTION_LEVEL - 1where MAP_LEVEL starts at 1 for -10/Materials, and TERMINAL_FUNCTION_LEVEL is equivalent to its security level. (*For prototypes, add 1 to RATING.)

So the answer depends on the terminal:
  • -5/Factory for security level 1
  • -6/Factory for security level 2
  • -7/Factory for security level 3
Simply put, for the easiest terminals it will always be equivalent to the number of depths you've reached, but you can access them a floor or two early at better terminals.

While we're at it, the base chance to succeed is
Code: [Select]
45 - (RATING * 4)or (RATING * 7) for prototypes.
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Happylisk

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Re: Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2015, 08:47:11 AM »

Dang.  I found Regenerative Armor for the first time and was seriously considering mass producing some.  The fact that this won't be too feasible until -5 puts a damper on things.  Can't argue though, it's a good balance decision.

But seriously, regenerative armor kicks ass. 
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Kyzrati

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Re: Alpha 4/4b Discussion
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2015, 09:00:57 AM »

NERF INCOMING!

Just kidding, enjoy the armor :)

Also, I don't think you saw that part of my stream last week, but when I made it to Access--where I spent a quarter of the game--early on I discovered a stockpile of three awesome powered armors, which combined with my four power sources kept me in great shape for quite a while! I don't believe I've ever found the regenerative armors before, but you've got more games to your name than I do at this point :P.
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