Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Kyzrati]

Hm, I'd like to think a possible component of the upcoming tweaks could be to reduce the flight resource costs, but most are already at only 1 or 2! Part of the problem there is there isn't enough granularity given that flight units start to stretch the rules with their insane speeds (being able to move so many times in one turn). I don't want to get into decimals--everything's supposed to be integers--otherwise I could halve the costs.

[sve9]

One thing that I think is strange about flight units is that often in stealth runs the higher level flight units are just flat out worse for you than the low tier flight units. Since most people support their mass with weight redistribution units anyways, the support of the flight units doesn't really matter, and the speed remains the same no matter what tier of flight unit you look at. The higher tier flight units also take more energy and produce more heat than low tier ones, so I tend to just try and stick to using basic flight units in my run. I don't know if there's a way to fix this without making speed builds completely broken though, so there's that.

[Adraius]

I don't have a whole lot to add here, most of my thoughts have already been said, but I want to chip in that my thoughts generally mirror zxc's with regard to flight unit stacking, the oddly high value of low-level flight units and treads vs. legs.  On the last point last point, it comes down to the fact that I haven't yet found a way to make gaining a mid-range move speed worth losing 1-3(?) utility slots and a whole lot of weight tolerance (e.g. big gunz and piles o' storage, two pillars of my strategy).  This is with the major caveat that I'm not convinced it's impossible, though - I don't think I'm paying enough attention to optimal positioning with an eye towards making likely routes to me lead through choke points whenever remotely possible and/r defensive positions always within reach, and my experimenting was interrupted by my honeymoon with Starsector.

P.S. I do like the idea of removing the move delay increase for multiple wheels; it makes logical sense to me given the wheel's great simplicity compared to other movement systems, and gives them a nice silver lining without disrupting their place as plentiful but disposable and low-value.

[Kyzrati]

One thing that I think is strange about flight units is that often in stealth runs the higher level flight units are just flat out worse for you than the low tier flight units. Since most people support their mass with weight redistribution units anyways, the support of the flight units doesn't really matter, and the speed remains the same no matter what tier of flight unit you look at. The higher tier flight units also take more energy and produce more heat than low tier ones, so I tend to just try and stick to using basic flight units in my run. I don't know if there's a way to fix this without making speed builds completely broken though, so there's that.

I believe there is some room to make low-tier flight worse, but the main problem comes from the goal of trying to keep most propulsion units of the same type with the same base speed. The system can get even more confusing if those values are allowed to vary. The idea is that different values are averaged together, but it gets pretty complicated once you add in other features like overloading. Part of the complication comes from internal factors, not necessarily from a player's point of view, since the game can do all the heavy lifting. I'll work on it.

@Adraius: Supporting mid-range speeds will start to look more appealing when treads get slower.

[Adraius]

@Adraius: Supporting mid-range speeds will start to look more appealing when treads get slower.

Dammit. =P Okay.  Is that a thing that's definitely happening?  If so, what form is it likely going to take?

Actually, is there a list of broad changes that have been discussed and will likely be appearing anywhere? (or can I get a brief summary, pretty please?) Ex. I've heard of an EM resistance increase and Thermal vulnerability for Programmers, but I can't find where that originated. nvm, just read Happylisk's winning combat run =)

[Kyzrati]

@Adraius: Supporting mid-range speeds will start to look more appealing when treads get slower.

Dammit. =P Okay.  Is that a thing that's definitely happening?  If so, what form is it likely going to take?

Actually, is there a list of broad changes that have been discussed and will likely be appearing anywhere? (or can I get a brief summary, pretty please?) Ex. I've heard of an EM resistance increase and Thermal vulnerability for Programmers, but I can't find where that originated.

Those two were discussed at some point in the tournament thread.

I can't say yet exactly what will happen to treads, though my impression as per our discussion and my own observations is that making them slower will solve most of the issues without introducing other problems. It could depend on what happens to other propulsion... I don't have any details yet, for this or other tweaks, because all I've done so far on that front is take down notes from all the discussions. They'll be referenced after I reorganize and prioritize all that info for implementation, and I might drop a proposal here depending on how sweeping the changes look.

I do continue updating my notes based on ongoing discussion, but in the meantime before each release I prefer to add new stuff before tweaking old stuff. And I haven't even gotten to the latter yet for Alpha 4--the tournament really put us behind on that. I should post a progress update soon.

[Adraius]

Ok.  I'm worried about tread speed because it's already a large factor in how I die - I can't loot and scoot fast enough, so I chain-battle Programmers or other squads until corruption, Programmer Poisoning, and/or general lack of parts does me in. (or I find an exit, obviously) My "time battling/looting" to "time pushing forward" ratio already feels pretty crazy.  That's why I'm looking at legs as a propulsion system in the first place.  I'm not sure how much slower treads can be while remaining viable.

Keep in mind that I'm just saying "I don't know" - they might be fine, or it might make them entirely nonviable in Research and beyond.

[Kyzrati]

I understand your style, and will take that into account, yes

Part of the challenge of open development is observing and accounting for individual player behavior while at the same time seeing the game as it can play under optimal conditions.

You certainly play at a far end of the spectrum, so that's a good metric for understanding what happens at that point.

[zxc]

Making treads slower as a whole (and removing the extra slow-down with additional treads) is one way of doing things. But if this is combined with nerfs to HCP storage units, it could get ugly for the combat-minded player.

I wonder if you could simply increase the penalty rating for treads a decent amount and remove the slow-down with additional treads. That way, if you use just two propulsion slots and stack a lot of heavy gear, you WILL be slower than before (250-300 perhaps?). However, you could counter-act this by using more propulsion slots to keep under the support limit (170-200 speed perhaps?). Do the same with legs and let them be about 100 speed while under the support limit and ~250 while well over it.

Then there would be roughly three distinct options:

1. Use two slots for treads, stack as much power as possible, and be very slow (250-300 speed).
2. Use multiple slots for treads, keep under the support limit, and be slow (~175 speed).
3. Use multiple slots for legs, keep under the support limit by avoiding some of the heaviest but strongest gear, and be medium speed (~100 speed).

Using two legs and going overweight should be a poor option. As should using wheels, although currently I don't think there is ever ANY situation where I'd equip wheels, they're that bad.

Then for hover units you use multiple slots for 30-50 speed with more specialised gear and lesser firepower. By the way, currently hover units are a much greater strain on energy and heat than flight units, because of their slow movement compared to flight.

Regarding flight units, you can move Imp. Flight Unit to rating ~*7 or so and appear only at the endgame. They can retain their low support value as their only downside, and maybe the integrity as well. For other early flight units, heat can be increased rather safely to make them worse without making them useless. Later flight units really do need to be more attractive from an energy/heat efficiency POV. I also think you can introduce endgame flight units which keep their current poor energy/heat values but have better speed (25 base, -7 additional to about 8 speed?). This allows for a speed specialised build which requires good power and good heat dissipation to run.

Flight options (this is more of a continuous scale than two discrete options but anyway...):

1. Use two slots for flight units, stack mass support utilities and go for a stealth build where you avoid nearly everything and outrun most enemies.
2. Use multiple slots for flight units, use multiple heat sinks and power amplifiers and go for a speed build where you can outrun all enemies.

[Kyzrati]

That's mostly in line with what I'm thinking. Thanks for the reference.

By the way, currently hover units are a much greater strain on energy and heat than flight units, because of their slow movement compared to flight.

But this is also highly dependent on how much you're moving. By comparison I believe flight gets a lot more costly when you're constantly zipping around.

[fernsauce]

The whole cost while idle is kind of weird in practice. You're better off turning off your propulsion units whenever you are stationary. Which ends up being a lot of micro for frequently little reward, but definitely worth it if you're fighting for extended periods of time. You can't really eliminate them, though, or pack them into movement, because some propulsion units give you combat bonuses while active. It's awkward.

Storage units could be worked on. I think maybe splitting up where you find them would help - right now you find all storage units in -10 because they're all rating 1. More efficient (in terms of weight) would be nice for some lower capacity ones (since they're kind of neglected), but 16m/8inventory seems like a good one slot compromise for the ultra-heavy builds.

Also - I feel like overweighted hover units might actually be surprisingly useful for a combat build. You can load up to 2x capacity and still be under 100 speed all the time, and 3x capacity is comparable to having 3 weighted legs. The only drawback is durability, but otherwise they're comparable / possibly even better than legs in some aspects. Plus, since you're overweighting yourself, you can toss on Weight Redistributors and get double mileage out of them, ignoring the fact that weight redistributors tend to explode. Things start getting really ridiculous if you can snab prototypes with -10 per slot and 30 penalty, because then you can go to like triple overweight and still be moving faster than any walking robot while *probably* carrying more than them.

Finally: on Imp Flight Units, in addition to all their other strengths, they also have a *really* high capacity for when you find them. With 8 weight when your normal units are half that (and VTOL modules are just 5), you can really dodge a lot of the normally brutal energy / heat problems associated with being a bird. The way I tend to play Materials in my stealth runs these days is usually something along the lines of flying around with a pair of reactors, a trio of flight units, and two of the heaviest cannons/shotguns + spare launcher to blast the shit out of anything that gets in my way, which is way way more effective than it deserves to be.

[Kyzrati]

The whole cost while idle is kind of weird in practice. You're better off turning off your propulsion units whenever you are stationary. Which ends up being a lot of micro for frequently little reward, but definitely worth it if you're fighting for extended periods of time. You can't really eliminate them, though, or pack them into movement, because some propulsion units give you combat bonuses while active. It's awkward.

It is awkward from a min-maxing point of view, though I think it would be equally awkward without that mechanic, for different reasons including the one you mention. The addition of a single hotkey to disable and re-enable all propulsion at once would probably make micromanagement much less of an issue, yeah? This was a suggestion from zxc I want to add for Alpha 4. (Also another key to do the same for weapons.)

Also - I feel like overweighted hover units might actually be surprisingly useful for a combat build. You can load up to 2x capacity and still be under 100 speed all the time, and 3x capacity is comparable to having 3 weighted legs. The only drawback is durability, but otherwise they're comparable / possibly even better than legs in some aspects. Plus, since you're overweighting yourself, you can toss on Weight Redistributors and get double mileage out of them, ignoring the fact that weight redistributors tend to explode. Things start getting really ridiculous if you can snab prototypes with -10 per slot and 30 penalty, because then you can go to like triple overweight and still be moving faster than any walking robot while *probably* carrying more than them.

This is what I've found, too. Hovering can be really effective at combat, but not so good (due to low integrity) that you'd want to stick around for long battles. I think it works pretty well where it is right now, but maybe not a lot of players are using it (?).

Storage units could be worked on. I think maybe splitting up where you find them would help - right now you find all storage units in -10 because they're all rating 1. More efficient (in terms of weight) would be nice for some lower capacity ones (since they're kind of neglected), but 16m/8inventory seems like a good one slot compromise for the ultra-heavy builds.

I've addressed this in a new thread dedicated to Storage Units.

[zxc]

The whole cost while idle is kind of weird in practice. You're better off turning off your propulsion units whenever you are stationary. Which ends up being a lot of micro for frequently little reward, but definitely worth it if you're fighting for extended periods of time. You can't really eliminate them, though, or pack them into movement, because some propulsion units give you combat bonuses while active. It's awkward.

It is awkward from a min-maxing point of view, though I think it would be equally awkward without that mechanic, for different reasons including the one you mention. The addition of a single hotkey to disable and re-enable all propulsion at once would probably make micromanagement much less of an issue, yeah? This was a suggestion from zxc I want to add for Alpha 4. (Also another key to do the same for weapons.)

The key (and overall change) I want most of all is still the item swap mode. I'm sure any keyboard player can immediately see the benefit of it. And for a game that is all about inventory management, having the most commonly used function (swapping items) require two modifiers as well as a special order (equipped item, then inventory item) is just too much.

[Kyzrati]

Yep, it's going to happen. It's not a simple feature, though, so while fairly high priority it's still below a bunch of more vital (or easier) Alpha 4 stuff. I'd be doing it sooner if not for the recent decision that we need an alternative UI mode with larger characters, so I need to have that planned first and make sure the new systems are all compatible.

[fernsauce]

By the way, I noticed some really weird discrepancies in stacking certain kinds of propulsion units.

In particular, you can reach 6 speed without overloading any flight units, by equipping 3 prototypes and a regular unit.

Even with only of the 30 / -10 prototypes, you can still get below 10, as shown in the second screenshot.

Both of these seem kind of bizarre and confusing, because I'm pretty sure just equipping a fourth prototype will give you 10 speed, which is like, less than any other combination.

[zxc]

Huh, that is weird.

Man, I don't get how propulsion speeds work in this game. K, what have you done?!

[Kyzrati]

It's gotten weird!

It started out pretty simple but then I added more mechanics since the prototype, all trying to sit on top of a system designed for the 7DRL that wasn't redesigned to give proper attention to balance across the entire possibility space.

Overall it's a more complicated a system than I'd prefer, but the intent was to create a model that would allow for plenty of flexibility (and unique parts) while also adhering to some basic rules and using no more than a handful of variables, and only integers at that...

In any case, it's still fairly well balanced in terms of overall numbers/capabilities between types, it's just a matter of getting the math to make more sense at the finer level (flight is the most egregious of the bunch, since you can fly so damn fast--we may want to slow that down). For Alpha 4, based on observations in this thread I'll be creating a spreadsheet from scratch that maps out all the moving pieces and tweak the numbers (or even some mechanics if need be, though I'll try to avoid that if possible).

[fernsauce]

Okay, so in my weekly seed run, I messed around with propulsion more and ran into some really bizarre behavior.

You get inconsistent results sometimes when you put the same parts on in different order. Also, there are situations where overloading a propulsion unit slows you down, and then turning it back to normal mode will speed you up again. I'm pretty sure there's something going wrong with whatever calculation goes on here. It doesn't really seem that you *should* be able to get below 10 speed without something weird - from what I understand none of the individual propulsion units can be that fast without overloading, and the end speed is an average.

[Kyzrati]

I don't recall where--earlier in this thread I think--but propulsion order affecting results and overloading slowdown are known issues to be fixed soon. It's due to their internal inventory order, though, something that is not even known purely from the UI. The calculations get odd where different forms of propulsion are averaged together using different base speeds and different limits. Thanks, I'll be working on it as soon as I can get some more of Alpha 4's new features out of the way!

Edit: I'm locking this thread and merging all propulsion discussion into a single thread that includes the latest experimental build which rebalances the entire system.