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Author Topic: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22)  (Read 151804 times)

zxc

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #100 on: September 16, 2015, 09:02:38 PM »

Also, while in my own experience storage units are rarely critted since the chances are quite low, I'm thinking it probably makes sense to make them immune to critical hits, just because of how annoying that is. Thoughts?
I'd personally love it. It would be a player buff, but I'd rather you create difficulty via other methods than the extremely annoying and random crit-losing storage units with key items spilling out everywhere. Also, managing a 41 item inventory is not easy. I'm also still waiting for the item swap mode :)

You know, I was thinking yesterday there has to be a point at which by taking up so many utility slots with storage you're really driving down your effectiveness overall.
I entirely agree, however I also think that even with much lower effectiveness you should still be much better off than without those 40 odd backup items. I keep running out of items  to use in my utility slots. I just fill them up with whatever I find, like target analysers and heat sinks, because anything is better than nothing. So, in that situation, having 40 backup items is far superior because I wouldn't even be able to make use of all the other utility slots. If we look back at all those screenshots I took of the turning points in my combat runs (check the theory-crafting OP) it is clear that the primary reason I die is due to running out of items, especially weapons. I also outline some thoughts in that post about storage.

Perhaps the answer is just don't get surrounded.  Easier said than done. 
Getting surrounded is pretty much the worst thing that can happen to you, in my opinion. I try to route myself to make it impossible to be surrounded, at least based on my knowledge of the map. Depending on your loadout, engaging in a bit of terraforming is another useful option ;)
When programmers are en route, I've started waiting in a good spot rather than continuing to explore, just to take care of them safely and not get surrounded. One of the things I've started to learn recently.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 09:04:32 PM by zxc »
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zxc

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #101 on: September 16, 2015, 10:47:30 PM »

Holy moly, -3 was tough. I was on the verge of collapse at times. But I've made it to -2, and I have a terminal right in front of me.

My biggest immediate problem is a lack of matter. I want to switch to my hacking items but that will cost a lot of matter... Not sure what to do. Probably have heaps of alert level due to the previous floor.

Screenshot

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Edit:

Hacking pays off! Can hardly believe it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Edit2:

Oh my goodness. The stairs were so close.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

First time reaching -1 with a combat build! If I screw this up it will be unforgivable.

Oh I forgot I still have drones! I should use them early on.

Edit3:

Behemoth payday.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My only concern is my weak storage units. This is looking amazing right now. The tip to fight behemoths with EM weapons was an excellent one. Some programmers are on their way. I have a nearby terminal I'm going to try hacking the exit with once I kill the programmers. This is surely going to be the run.

Edit4:

This is intense. Currently playing really short sessions because I can't stand the thought of screwing up being this close to victory. Programmers keep getting called but haven't come across me yet. Like 4x now.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 12:44:21 AM by zxc »
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Kyzrati

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #102 on: September 17, 2015, 01:03:14 AM »

Looking like a really hectic run, zxc! Damn you're carrying a lot of stuff... And it's not too surprising you managed to hack the exit earlier--that's a lot of Deep Network Scanners! :o

Good luck making it to the surface, and thanks for sharing.

When programmers are en route, I've started waiting in a good spot rather than continuing to explore, just to take care of them safely and not get surrounded. One of the things I've started to learn recently.
Absolutely. I don't always wait, since it can sometimes take them a while to reach your position, but with a combat build I would say it's best to change your movement tactics to make sure you can take cover and get in a defensive position as quickly as possible. (Even better to have sensors, honestly, even just a single-slot array, because when you see about two question marks coming straight towards your position non-stop you know what they are ;))
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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #103 on: September 17, 2015, 01:04:19 AM »

Latest batch of stats from Days 1~7. Six days left!

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zxc

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #104 on: September 17, 2015, 02:48:15 AM »

The Access floor just got rekt.



I found the exit before long and my items and core integrity were so good that I decided to just go on a rampage around the map. Nothing could stop me!

I was still in pristine condition, but I escaped after a while of clearing a huge chunk of the floor because managing matter was annoying and I was getting impatient by that point to win. It was fun just destroying everything without any fear for once, and with a fully set-up build. By that point I was just leaving amazing items on the floor because I had so many, and I could pick them up at any time because I was literally clearing the floor of all robots and machines, so eventually no recyclers were around to take items. Chaos prevails over the forces of order.



Access was far easier than Research and actually probably Factory too.

Loot for days
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also I one-shot a behemoth.

The morgue file:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I killed four behemoths on -1 alone, so that display of two killed is definitely bugged. It should be about six or so. Edit: I took out most of them with corruption from EM weapons, which explains why they don't show up on the log. So everything is working as intended.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 06:12:15 AM by zxc »
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Happylisk

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #105 on: September 17, 2015, 06:40:55 AM »

Congrats zxc!  Very, very impressive.  What a build.  You really beasted them.  Also, I totally know what you mean about short sessions.  Around -4 I begin playing in spurts of 10 min.  I have to take breaks just to make sure I don't get sloppy since so much concentration is required.   

I also found Access to be a bit less hellish than research.  I think that's just cause the gear lying around  there is so top notch.  Glad switching to emp for behemoths paid off.  That's probably why your behemoth kill count isn't 6 - robots corrupted to death don't count as your kill. 

I'm going to start using scanalyzers a lot more.  I never did before cause I wasn't fabricating.  Now, I'm going to make sure I scan my forcefields, targeting computers, and best battery at the very least.  Def. going to scan bay drone bays found in factory too.  I'm sure this will be a far easier way to get schematics than indirect hacks (and it'll free up terminals for other hacks).  Also, it'll make hacking suites more useful since scanning and fabbing utilizes direct hacks.  My game got a lot better once I understand how to use terminals properly. I suspect it'll get even better once I starting putting scanalyzers to proper use. 

Spoily question for K:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 07:36:32 AM by Happylisk »
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zxc

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #106 on: September 17, 2015, 07:51:49 AM »

Thanks, yeah they got smashed.

Access was actually unusually easy. A bunch of times I was at the edges of the map and programmers never reached me. I was waiting by a terminal, making an unsuccessful attempt at locating the exit and waiting out the trace for at least a thousand turns. I never got the hack working (it was probably like 1% chance) so I gave up and left. I think Access might be bugged because even when I was running around annihilating the entire floor, more enemies would not come after me; Access was the calmest floor in the entire game.

EM is really good against behemoths. One or two hits and they die from system corruption. Maybe they're actually vulnerable to it? We don't have scanalyser data for behemoths on the wiki.

I scanned a bunch of low level stuff with the scanalyser, but I only fabricated one item: HCP storage units, which I think might be optimal. I couldn't fabricate enough of them. Later on you find plenty of other stuff, and behemoths are walking piles of loot (seriously, next time I'm going to actively seek out behemoths because the risk/reward is so much better than with other enemies). I actually carried a regular hacking suite just for fabricating, however I am pretty sure you can utilise indirect hacks for them too. I'm going to expand on a lot of these thoughts in the combat run theory-craft thread at some point, but I think deep network scanners should be stacked with a combat run (and in fact, all runs, ideally). I think a big reason why I succeeded in this run was because I was purging threat all through to Research.
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Happylisk

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #107 on: September 17, 2015, 08:15:25 AM »

I think that's right.  I think Purge threat is the primary indirect hack to use in Factory and research (further underscoring that schematics should be coming from scanalyzers, not indirect hacking).  I can see doing an index hack to find terminals or fabs, especially if you're running low on Hcp storage units, but otherwise purge all day long.  I also don't think Access(main) commands are necessary for factory once you have a handle on the mid-game. 

Out of curiosity, were you using EMP launchers against Behemoths, of HERF cannons?  I assume it wasn't emp rifles. 

I really wish Enumerate(Security) was level wide as opposed to local, since seeing which corners had sentries would give you a decent idea where the exit is. 
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I discovered something that's meta-gaming but it's made my factory runs  easier:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 08:26:42 AM by Happylisk »
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boomblip

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #108 on: September 17, 2015, 08:56:27 AM »

The Access floor just got rekt.



I found the exit before long and my items and core integrity were so good that I decided to just go on a rampage around the map. Nothing could stop me!

I was still in pristine condition, but I escaped after a while of clearing a huge chunk of the floor because managing matter was annoying and I was getting impatient by that point to win. It was fun just destroying everything without any fear for once, and with a fully set-up build. By that point I was just leaving amazing items on the floor because I had so many, and I could pick them up at any time because I was literally clearing the floor of all robots and machines, so eventually no recyclers were around to take items. Chaos prevails over the forces of order.



Access was far easier than Research and actually probably Factory too.

Loot for days
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also I one-shot a behemoth.

The morgue file:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I killed four behemoths on -1 alone, so that display of two killed is definitely bugged. It should be about six or so. Edit: I took out most of them with corruption from EM weapons, which explains why they don't show up on the log. So everything is working as intended.

WOW what a run.  Definitely been focusing more on hacking to keep threat levels down but research consistently wrecks me.  Headed out to the woods for a few days, been a busy week, so I've been watching everyone's score climb, plan on giving a few more tries next week once my life chills out.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #109 on: September 17, 2015, 10:06:08 PM »

Congratulations zxc, that's a sick score, no doubt pumped up by your Access rampage.

Access was far easier than Research and actually probably Factory too.
This is a side effect of several factors. Notice that highest-tier robots from the main classes peak out at a rating of about 8~9, meaning the most difficult part of the game will be when you first encounter them in Research. By Access, you have access to consistently better parts, but your enemies haven't continued to grow stronger. Thus over the past months players are either stopped in Research or will probably escape, but not usually get stuck in Access itself--if you can get to Access in good shape your chances of making it out increase.

More powerful robots will be waiting for you in the late-game branches if you decide to take those routes for the harder endings.

Another part of the reason you found it easier than you otherwise might have in terms of Programmers and the food clock is that I reduced their frequency significantly for Alpha 3, especially in the end game.

Not sure about the lack of assault squads if you were causing that much destruction in Assault, but it could be caused by them not having enough time to respond yet, or you were purging threats. (?)

Spoily question for K:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Nope,
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I discovered something that's meta-gaming but it's made my factory runs  easier:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I was wondering when someone would notice this. It's not obvious right away in Cogmind, though technically it's a common feature of many traditional roguelikes.

Definitely been focusing more on hacking to keep threat levels down but research consistently wrecks me.
As explained above that's the most difficult area of the game, so get over that hump and you should be able to pull off a win.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #110 on: September 17, 2015, 10:07:00 PM »

Of the 64 total achievements, 17 have been fully revealed so far:
  • 1337
  • Always Prepared
  • Assembly Line
  • Center of Attention
  • Deathwish
  • Giant Slayer
  • Gladiator
  • Hotshot
  • Librarian
  • Night Owl
  • Packrat
  • Scavenger
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  • Unperturbed
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  • War Machine
  • WMD
Six days left!
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zxc

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #111 on: September 17, 2015, 11:04:24 PM »

Thanks folks.

Notice that highest-tier robots from the main classes peak out at a rating of about 8~9, meaning the most difficult part of the game will be when you first encounter them in Research. By Access, you have access to consistently better parts, but your enemies haven't continued to grow stronger.
This is a good point, but I'm mostly referring to the number of enemies rather than how strong they were individually.

Another part of the reason you found it easier than you otherwise might have in terms of Programmers and the food clock is that I reduced their frequency significantly for Alpha 3, especially in the end game.
Their frequency seems good - the problem is that programmers were being sent (according to the log) but not finding me. This happened at least a dozen times while I was around the edges of the map attempting to hack the exit location.

Not sure about the lack of assault squads if you were causing that much destruction in Assault, but it could be caused by them not having enough time to respond yet, or you were purging threats. (?)
The last time I purged threat was on -3 I believe. No assault squads were ever sent on -1. It's like my alert level was permanently stuck at a low one for the duration of -1. -3 on the other hand was so full of enemies that I could barely move without encountering more. So either there is some weird issue with -1, or it's intended to be much calmer than Research.

I discovered something that's meta-gaming but it's made my factory runs  easier:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I was wondering when someone would notice this. It's not obvious right away in Cogmind, though technically it's a common feature of many traditional roguelikes.
This is interesting, and I hadn't tried to do this although I look around the map a lot. Shouldn't it be simple to prevent this from being effective if you wished?

Out of curiosity, were you using EMP launchers against Behemoths, of HERF cannons?  I assume it wasn't emp rifles. 

I was using a mixture of EM weapons against the Behemoths. Some HERF cannons and some programmer rifles. It was extremely effective.

I didn't make much use of launchers throughout this run. I found that, other than an explosive launcher for the odd Swarmer group, they weren't so effective. This is partially because I didn't find many great launchers until the 9* one at the very end (which still took several shots to kill grunts, while I could one-shot them with my guns), and partially because I avoided open areas where possible and stuck to small corridors in order to more safely fight fewer enemies at a time.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #112 on: September 17, 2015, 11:22:31 PM »

Notice that highest-tier robots from the main classes peak out at a rating of about 8~9, meaning the most difficult part of the game will be when you first encounter them in Research. By Access, you have access to consistently better parts, but your enemies haven't continued to grow stronger.
This is a good point, but I'm mostly referring to the number of enemies rather than how strong they were individually.
I was going to point out that it could be overcome by increasing the number of enemies, but then you'd likely be more easily overwhelmed. Unless perhaps you're carrying 40 inventory items, which we need to do something about :P

Another part of the reason you found it easier than you otherwise might have in terms of Programmers and the food clock is that I reduced their frequency significantly for Alpha 3, especially in the end game.
Their frequency seems good - the problem is that programmers were being sent (according to the log) but not finding me. This happened at least a dozen times while I was around the edges of the map attempting to hack the exit location.
Okay, that might be a problem. I'll look into it because it could be a factor of the access points being blocked off (though they're not supposed to enter from those).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Oops, you had it a little easier than you should have :)

This is interesting, and I hadn't tried to do this although I look around the map a lot. Shouldn't it be simple to prevent this from being effective if you wished?
Not too simple, no. You'd have to fake some map UI interactions while the cursor is outside the map, and do it in multiple modes. Even more difficult to address: If you allow the player to scroll indefinitely even beyond the edges of the map they could get lost (unless familiar with the "press Enter to recenter" command). Not very friendly...
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zxc

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #113 on: September 17, 2015, 11:34:25 PM »

Notice that highest-tier robots from the main classes peak out at a rating of about 8~9, meaning the most difficult part of the game will be when you first encounter them in Research. By Access, you have access to consistently better parts, but your enemies haven't continued to grow stronger.
This is a good point, but I'm mostly referring to the number of enemies rather than how strong they were individually.
I was going to point out that it could be overcome by increasing the number of enemies, but then you'd likely be more easily overwhelmed. Unless perhaps you're carrying 40 inventory items, which we need to do something about :P
I just think it should be in line with Research. And no doubt maxing out your inventory capacity is the optimal strategy, but I think carrying a ton of items like that is the best way of reducing the variance of the run and of controlling your item situation. I don't know how you're meant to cope if your treads get crit-destroyed and you have no more backups, and hunters are shooting at you through the wall and you can't move to take a shot at them because of a 2k delay (this happened to me at one point that run)...

Another part of the reason you found it easier than you otherwise might have in terms of Programmers and the food clock is that I reduced their frequency significantly for Alpha 3, especially in the end game.
Their frequency seems good - the problem is that programmers were being sent (according to the log) but not finding me. This happened at least a dozen times while I was around the edges of the map attempting to hack the exit location.
Okay, that might be a problem. I'll look into it because it could be a factor of the access points being blocked off (though they're not supposed to enter from those).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Oops, you had it a little easier than you should have :)
I did think something was wrong to this effect. Still though, once I took out that first behemoth I was all set; the game was mine to lose. No assault squadrons were even sent in the log. Programmers did eventually find me when I moved away from the map edges to look for the exit though. Maybe they were regular programmers patrolling around rather than the ones actually sent for me? I actually wanted squads to come for me because I was prepared to annihilate them standing by the exit.

This is interesting, and I hadn't tried to do this although I look around the map a lot. Shouldn't it be simple to prevent this from being effective if you wished?
Not too simple, no. You'd have to fake some map UI interactions while the cursor is outside the map, and do it in multiple modes. Even more difficult to address: If you allow the player to scroll indefinitely even beyond the edges of the map they could get lost (unless familiar with the "press Enter to recenter" command). Not very friendly...
[/quote]
You could have it detect when the player has scrolled away sufficiently and just display a small message saying 'Press Enter to reset your view' or something to that effect. In any case I won't be using this method because finding exits in Factory is easy enough. Finding exits in Research, on the other hand...
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 11:39:56 PM by zxc »
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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #114 on: September 18, 2015, 12:00:20 AM »

I just think it should be in line with Research.
Aside from the slight level gap that starts to grow by then, it would be if you had the normal squads on your tail. Although the map is more open so the dynamics of encounters would be a little different from Research.

And no doubt maxing out your inventory capacity is the optimal strategy, but I think carrying a ton of items like that is the best way of reducing the variance of the run and of controlling your item situation.
Carrying useful spares is definitely important, though not quite that many. I think (ideally) one or two storage units should be enough for a combat run.

Maybe they were regular programmers patrolling around rather than the ones actually sent for me? I actually wanted squads to come for me because I was prepared to annihilate them standing by the exit.
Yeah those would have been regular patrols.

And if you'd engaged the Programmers that weren't coming you may have ended up facing assault squads, too, due to the extra destruction, but it's hard to say.

I can see you standing on the exit lift, guns and cannons blazing as you give them a goodbye present to remember you by.

You could have it detect when the player has scrolled away sufficiently and just display a small message saying 'Press Enter to reset your view' or something to that effect. In any case I won't be using this method because finding exits in Factory is easy enough. Finding exits in Research, on the other hand...
It's possible, though in all it would be a lot of work to prevent a practice that may not always be so beneficial, and could even send you in the wrong/worse direction depending on the internal layout.
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zxc

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #115 on: September 18, 2015, 12:40:51 AM »

Some assorted thoughts:

If you want to nerf storage units, I think you can simply remove HCP. Storage Units. Then Large Storage Units will be the biggest. However, I think for a trade, it would be good to remove player items getting insta-destroyed by crits. Also, saboteurs blasting off storage units are the worst, but I realise they're meant to be nasty.

A hotkey to enable all weapons (and disable all weapons) would be great. Something like Ctrl-[. Often I want to disable all weapons but my launcher, or vice versa. Other times I just want to enable my energy weapons to not spend matter, or just a single weapon to scare off a Recycler, or a single cannon to make a hole in the wall. I'd make use of a similar hotkey for enabling/disabling all propulsion as well (Ctrl-= ?), for energy min-maxing when resting, but that's only relevant for non-combat runs and even then, not so often.

It is rather annoying that when one of your weapons misfires due to system corruption, they all seem to get disabled. I'm not there is a point to this, because even when you have them disabled, they can still misfire. So it just results in more key-presses to turn everything back on again.

Behemoths could use a defensive buff I think. Obviously something innate, as they come with great defensive items already. Their huge size makes them very easy to hit, and they seem to get destroyed by system corruption really fast, though I haven't tried full EM weapon volleys on other enemies all that much. A single Hunter is a lot harder to kill I find, for my combat Cogminds.

Is there a way to 'shout' to get the attention of nearby enemies?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 03:58:38 AM by zxc »
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mendonca

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #116 on: September 18, 2015, 03:17:58 AM »

First of all congratulation, zxc, that is an incredible run. Considering you spent ~40% of the run in Access, I bow to your powers of concentration. By -3 I think I'm psychically damaged by the attrition more than physically, and wonder if a little more positivity (or negativity) in taking my 58th tactical escape (57 is my limit, man) - I would have at least lasted a bit longer.

Looking at the top scores, -3 clearly is a big wall for lots of players. Wonder how much is mental ...

I had a thought regarding the 1-tread build (and also perhaps in general regarding tactical escapes) - and getting these unexpectedly shot off. A utility that allows you to 'emergency detach' all items in a standard turn, to make a run for it (you don't want to stand in a firefight carefully removing items one at a time to get your speed up to something reasonable) would certainly make sense lore-wise (viewing the Cogmind as the 'core') - but might not be well balanced.  Perhaps could be done so by applying an energy / matter cost (you need to plan the emergency detach procedure at least a little bit).
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zxc

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #117 on: September 18, 2015, 03:45:39 AM »

First of all congratulation, zxc, that is an incredible run.
Thanks!

Considering you spent ~40% of the run in Access, I bow to your powers of concentration. By -3 I think I'm psychically damaged by the attrition more than physically, and wonder if a little more positivity (or negativity) in taking my 58th tactical escape (57 is my limit, man) - I would have at least lasted a bit longer.
Quite a bit of those turns spent in Access were in waiting out terminal traces while trying to hack the exit location, which I eventually gave up trying. I was confident in being able to find the exit by just exploring, but since enemies couldn't find me at the terminal I thought it was safer to try and hack the exit that way. The attrition does take a massive toll. I think my earlier posts that I made during the run show my rising levels of stress :P . Especially when you keep making these combat runs that get far but not far enough.

Looking at the top scores, -3 clearly is a big wall for lots of players. Wonder how much is mental ...
I fully believe (and Kyzrati does too I think) that Research is the hardest part of the game. The levels are less open compared with Factory, and enemies seem more concentrated. Plus, the enemies reach their final tiers. To add to all that, there are many dead-ends, making navigation difficult and time-consuming (which results in more attrition as more enemies find you while back-tracking, which results in further increases to alert level and so on). Plus because the levels are less open than Factory, it becomes very hard to avoid key enemies like Carriers and assault teams.

In this run -3 was still the hardest floor, but I managed to stay intact and maintain my build during its most testing moments. Also, I kept stepping on traps that destroyed my treads, and got critted to lose my 100% integrity treads constantly... And when I killed a sentry I couldn't even reach its loot before more enemies were upon me, and the treads were recycled. I don't understand how my propulsion could get so unlucky.

These screenshots show quiet moments amidst a lot of fighting, which I feared would lead to a feedback loop of endless enemies until my build collapsed (without my Adv. Force Field it's very possible I would have collapsed):

In the first one, there are two hunters on the other side of the wall shooting me, but I have no propulsion. I had to destroy the wall with cannons in order to hit them.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I had a thought regarding the 1-tread build (and also perhaps in general regarding tactical escapes) - and getting these unexpectedly shot off. A utility that allows you to 'emergency detach' all items in a standard turn, to make a run for it (you don't want to stand in a firefight carefully removing items one at a time to get your speed up to something reasonable) would certainly make sense lore-wise (viewing the Cogmind as the 'core') - but might not be well balanced.  Perhaps could be done so by applying an energy / matter cost (you need to plan the emergency detach procedure at least a little bit).
I've thought about this quite a bit as well. It was really hard to throw off my storage units to lower my mass enough to escape. Honestly, it should let you drop storage units and all the excess items in one action, like as though it got blown off. In this screenshot I wanted to transition into flight, but it's almost quicker to let my storage units get blown off.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Separate request for Kyzrati: sort by rating for inventory? Decent idea or no? I mostly use sort by type currently, but maybe sort by rating would be useful as a shortcut to finding your 'worst' inventory items to more quickly work out what to drop for a shiny new item on the floor.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 04:13:31 AM by zxc »
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Happylisk

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #118 on: September 18, 2015, 06:30:41 AM »

Reading this discussion about how Access is easier than research is making me a sad panda indeed.  My guy on Access probably would have made it if I
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My current run is a spectacular exercise in fail.  I found storage so ended up with tons of drone bays, launchers, and storage units.  (scanalyzing a drone bay schematic afterwords was easy as pie).  I'm sitting on Factory -5 with like 4 different guided launchers.  The problem is I'm basically out of everything else.  The security level is rising and with my launchers I can squelch assault squads... which makes the level just go higher.  I had to put the run down for work, but I imagine I'll get home, fire up cogmind, and die spectacularly in about 5 minutes. 

A part of me wants to try an ally based build revolving around allied programmers (you wouldn't need too many weapons or coolant systems) but I'm going to save all experimentation for after the tournament. 

I'm assuming we'll go back to weekly seed runs once this is over?
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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #119 on: September 18, 2015, 06:55:31 AM »

Reading this discussion about how Access is easier than research is making me a sad panda indeed.
A large part of why Access is easier than Research is because it's more predictable ie. after you've been there several times, you know what you're doing. My first time in Research was much like yours, although I didn't try to fight any enemies.

My current run is a spectacular exercise in fail.  I found storage so ended up with tons of drone bays, launchers, and storage units.  (scanalyzing a drone bay schematic afterwords was easy as pie).  I'm sitting on Factory -5 with like 4 different guided launchers.  The problem is I'm basically out of everything else.  The security level is rising and with my launchers I can squelch assault squads... which makes the level just go higher.  I had to put the run down for work, but I imagine I'll get home, fire up cogmind, and die spectacularly in about 5 minutes. 
That does sound like you're going to be in some trouble soon. It'd be great if you could purge some alert levels. If you have the space, you can gear up quite fast by killing some guys, but armour and key defensive items like force fields aren't going to be easy to find.

A part of me wants to try an ally based build revolving around allied programmers (you wouldn't need too many weapons or coolant systems) but I'm going to save all experimentation for after the tournament. 
That'd be interesting. Not my cup of tea however. After the challenge, I'm going to go off and try to read all the records currently in the game, and try to get some screenshots for my guide.

I'm assuming we'll go back to weekly seed runs once this is over?
Sure thing. I see no reason why we wouldn't continue them.
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Happylisk

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #120 on: September 18, 2015, 07:41:01 AM »

That does sound like you're going to be in some trouble soon. It'd be great if you could purge some alert levels. If you have the space, you can gear up quite fast by killing some guys, but armour and key defensive items like force fields aren't going to be easy to find.

Oh I'm in trouble now.  My treads got blown off right before I stopped, and I'm out of spares.  I have to hope for a hauler to come by ASAP and drop one.  And you're right, forcefields are so preciously rare.  I'm tempted to dive into waste if I can and hope for the best.  It's either that, or deploying one of my drone bays and hoping for a quick exit to drop the alert level. 

K's right - I currently have 36 inventory space, which is far more than I normally roll with, and it's hurting my combat effectiveness.  I think I'm going to go back to slightly smaller inventories in future runs (20ish) and only crank up the space around -4 or -3. 

EDIT: I wonder how viable it would be to fabricate Protector class allies to supplement your defenses...
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 09:35:07 AM by Happylisk »
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Kyzrati

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #121 on: September 18, 2015, 07:29:59 PM »

If you want to nerf storage units, I think you can simply remove HCP. Storage Units. Then Large Storage Units will be the biggest. However, I think for a trade, it would be good to remove player items getting insta-destroyed by crits. Also, saboteurs blasting off storage units are the worst, but I realise they're meant to be nasty.
I might agree that the player's parts should be immune to crits. They're quite deadly and can suddenly ruin everything--at the wrong time a string of bad rolls can bury you in short order. (A related issue: Player parts are already immune to disruption, for the same reason.)

Another option would be to keep that feature and add a new type of part that can prevent against it (or add this as a feature of one or more existing defensive parts).

Or perhaps make Cogmind parts immune to crits unless already at < 25% integrity. In any case, I was already planning to make Storage Units themselves outright immune to crits.

A hotkey to enable all weapons (and disable all weapons) would be great. Something like Ctrl-[. Often I want to disable all weapons but my launcher, or vice versa. Other times I just want to enable my energy weapons to not spend matter, or just a single weapon to scare off a Recycler, or a single cannon to make a hole in the wall. I'd make use of a similar hotkey for enabling/disabling all propulsion as well (Ctrl-= ?), for energy min-maxing when resting, but that's only relevant for non-combat runs and even then, not so often.
Good ideas.

It is rather annoying that when one of your weapons misfires due to system corruption, they all seem to get disabled. I'm not there is a point to this, because even when you have them disabled, they can still misfire. So it just results in more key-presses to turn everything back on again.
Adraius and I discussed this somewhere recently (can't find the post). It's due to how the player UI and fire control system work--a programming issue. I'll code a workaround to make it more friendly.

Behemoths could use a defensive buff I think. Obviously something innate, as they come with great defensive items already. Their huge size makes them very easy to hit, and they seem to get destroyed by system corruption really fast, though I haven't tried full EM weapon volleys on other enemies all that much. A single Hunter is a lot harder to kill I find, for my combat Cogminds.
Behemoths are already somewhat resistant to EM, unlike most other front-line units. The real buff would be to give them greater core integrity, or reduce their core coverage.

I've always thought EM in general might be an OP damage type, especially by the end of the game, though surprisingly you don't use it much.

Is there a way to 'shout' to get the attention of nearby enemies?
Only by shooting non-combat robots, or of course being spotted directly or by a Watcher. I wonder if adding such a feature would be too effective a tactical move.

I had a thought regarding the 1-tread build (and also perhaps in general regarding tactical escapes) - and getting these unexpectedly shot off. A utility that allows you to 'emergency detach' all items in a standard turn, to make a run for it (you don't want to stand in a firefight carefully removing items one at a time to get your speed up to something reasonable) would certainly make sense lore-wise (viewing the Cogmind as the 'core') - but might not be well balanced.  Perhaps could be done so by applying an energy / matter cost (you need to plan the emergency detach procedure at least a little bit).
I remember a similar discussion during the 7DRL, or perhaps it was way back when I was brainstorming the new version... either way, I think it fits just fine into the lore, and would be a valid option. I don't see it being particularly unbalanced since you'd be giving up everything except 4 inventory items. Other opinions? Imagine having had this option available on previous runs--would it have meant anything for you?

Separate request for Kyzrati: sort by rating for inventory? Decent idea or no? I mostly use sort by type currently, but maybe sort by rating would be useful as a shortcut to finding your 'worst' inventory items to more quickly work out what to drop for a shiny new item on the floor.
Unless you have a ridiculous inventory size and it's filled with a lot of same-category items, I think type-sorting combined with 'q' mode is plenty good enough there. (Plus adding a new one would mess up the conveniently understandable keyboard scheme).

Reading this discussion about how Access is easier than research is making me a sad panda indeed.  My guy on Access probably would have made it if I
I was thinking about you during this discussion, and when you first reported it imagined that you really should have won that run :(

I'm sitting on Factory -5 with like 4 different guided launchers.  The problem is I'm basically out of everything else.
That seems to be one of my own trappings--ooh stash of launchers I'll just carry all of them. My last game ended not long after I emptied my inventory to carry four Guided Mini-nuke Launchers :P. It was great blowing everything to hell, but when I wasn't in a good position to use them I got picked apart; and matter was an issue. Should have just brought one and kept myself a little more versatile.

A part of me wants to try an ally based build revolving around allied programmers (you wouldn't need too many weapons or coolant systems) but I'm going to save all experimentation for after the tournament. 

I'm assuming we'll go back to weekly seed runs once this is over?
Yep. I'd appreciate if someone else wants to take over management if jimmijamjams doesn't have time to do it anymore. I can provide the BBCode/content for the current format to save time--it's just a matter of coming up with a seed name and taking a couple screenshots.

A large part of why Access is easier than Research is because it's more predictable ie. after you've been there several times, you know what you're doing. My first time in Research was much like yours, although I didn't try to fight any enemies.
I imagine getting a stealth win before a combat is a better idea, since the former can be achieved more quickly and allow you to scope out the maps rather than doing so slowly and without as many supporting sensors.
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zxc

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #122 on: September 18, 2015, 09:52:15 PM »

K's right - I currently have 36 inventory space, which is far more than I normally roll with, and it's hurting my combat effectiveness.  I think I'm going to go back to slightly smaller inventories in future runs (20ish) and only crank up the space around -4 or -3. 
:-\ My combat effectiveness was sky high with a large inventory, because all you need to fight is power sources, treads, some useful utilities, and lots and lots of guns. When something gets destroyed, it gets replaced by a backup, and I can continue fighting. It seems the problem here is that you didn't have enough backup items (or the right backup items), which can make the large inventory seem rather ineffectual. I believe maximising your inventory (to a point) is optimal in the current Alpha.

Some screenshots in Factory of my run:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Behemoths are already somewhat resistant to EM, unlike most other front-line units. The real buff would be to give them greater core integrity, or reduce their core coverage.

I've always thought EM in general might be an OP damage type, especially by the end of the game, though surprisingly you don't use it much.
It could be that it's OP at late-game. I've used it a lot early and mid-game, but found that kinetic seemed more effective, as well as not generating as much heat / spending as much energy. Will have to experiment more. Those behemoths were just going down after a couple of EM volleys, by system corruption.

Is there a way to 'shout' to get the attention of nearby enemies?
Only by shooting non-combat robots, or of course being spotted directly or by a Watcher. I wonder if adding such a feature would be too effective a tactical move.
The situation I was thinking of was for luring sentries off their posts, so that my stealth builds could exit more easily. Right now I have to stand in the open and take a hit in order to get the sentry's attention, and then kite it to move it off the exit. However, shouting could be useful when you are in a tactically advantageous position and wish to fight.

Separate request for Kyzrati: sort by rating for inventory? Decent idea or no? I mostly use sort by type currently, but maybe sort by rating would be useful as a shortcut to finding your 'worst' inventory items to more quickly work out what to drop for a shiny new item on the floor.
Unless you have a ridiculous inventory size and it's filled with a lot of same-category items, I think type-sorting combined with 'q' mode is plenty good enough there. (Plus adding a new one would mess up the conveniently understandable keyboard scheme).
I would agree there. I did have a ridiculous inventory, reaching a max of 50 at one point. Wouldn't adding that mode be simply a matter of adding the letter 'r' to sort by inventory? Right now 'r' stops running right? But escape serves the same purpose.

Yep. I'd appreciate if someone else wants to take over management if jimmijamjams doesn't have time to do it anymore. I can provide the BBCode/content for the current format to save time--it's just a matter of coming up with a seed name and taking a couple screenshots.
I could perhaps try doing it. Maybe we can all take turns managing it :)

I imagine getting a stealth win before a combat is a better idea, since the former can be achieved more quickly and allow you to scope out the maps rather than doing so slowly and without as many supporting sensors.
I agree here. Playing stealth allows you to see map layouts and patrol patterns, learn how to find exits and secret doors, and so on. You might not be able to focus on these things all the time with a combat build either, as you're always up to your neck in enemies to deal with.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #123 on: September 18, 2015, 10:32:42 PM »

Behemoths are already somewhat resistant to EM, unlike most other front-line units. The real buff would be to give them greater core integrity, or reduce their core coverage.

I've always thought EM in general might be an OP damage type, especially by the end of the game, though surprisingly you don't use it much.
It could be that it's OP at late-game. I've used it a lot early and mid-game, but found that kinetic seemed more effective, as well as not generating as much heat / spending as much energy. Will have to experiment more. Those behemoths were just going down after a couple of EM volleys, by system corruption.
It's a better late-game tactic because robots are just as susceptible to EM as they were at the beginning (since it's on its own scale), but the weapons do significantly more damage.

By the end with a full EM loadout you should be able to take out almost anything quickly, as long as you can hit it, so Behemoths are extra easy in that regard. The drawback was supposed to be you're less equipped to confront Programmers, though their number has been reduced from before...

Maybe to offset that change and restore the balance Programmers will need to have their EM resistance further increased.

The situation I was thinking of was for luring sentries off their posts, so that my stealth builds could exit more easily. Right now I have to stand in the open and take a hit in order to get the sentry's attention, and then kite it to move it off the exit. However, shouting could be useful when you are in a tactically advantageous position and wish to fight.
I see. There are already 3-4 ways I can think of luring Sentries from their positions without taking direct fire. Not all effective in all situations, but I believe a universal solution would make things a little more boring.

I would agree there. I did have a ridiculous inventory, reaching a max of 50 at one point. Wouldn't adding that mode be simply a matter of adding the letter 'r' to sort by inventory? Right now 'r' stops running right? But escape serves the same purpose.
'r' is also used as the actual run key (not just stopping) for players using vi-keys, so it can't be reused.

Yep. I'd appreciate if someone else wants to take over management if jimmijamjams doesn't have time to do it anymore. I can provide the BBCode/content for the current format to save time--it's just a matter of coming up with a seed name and taking a couple screenshots.
I could perhaps try doing it. Maybe we can all take turns managing it :)
Be my guest! One less thing I'd have to do :)
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Kyzrati

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Re: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22, IN PROGRESS!)
« Reply #124 on: September 18, 2015, 10:36:53 PM »

Latest stats, of course with a new selection of specific data:



(Anything else you're interested in seeing? Other ideas/coming up: Average percent of core damage taken on floors before death, Average system corruption at death, Average hacks per unique machine, and, maybe, Total number of turns spent in each map type.)
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