Topic: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22) (Read 152496 times)

boomblip · « **Reply #50 on:** September 12, 2015, 02:35:30 PM »

Well that was my best score yet.

I had plenty of parts but the battles became too intense and I couldn't replace fast enough to get any shots off. Basically been focusing on energy weapons with one or two AOE explosive weapons for crowd control, but I have pretty consistently found myself in the chute traps getting it all knocked off due to lack of speed. Found myself with 15%+ corruption more than once which was absolutely ridiculous, as I ran around the level blowing up generators and random robots unintentionally.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Happylisk · « **Reply #51 on:** September 12, 2015, 05:50:43 PM »

Wow bb, great run. Look at all those powered armors.

I recently had a promising run go straight to hell in -5. I was in the middle of a big hallway and 2 hunters shot both my engines off. I didn't have spares and things quickly death spiraled. I've gotten the hang of dealing with programmers. Hunters are the things now giving me more problems. I think having more armor than what I'm currently wearing is going to be necessary for dealing with them.

The run thereafter ended up in waste. Standing and fighting there is not a good idea.

boomblip · « **Reply #52 on:** September 12, 2015, 08:25:19 PM »

Yep the power armor saved my butt a few times but EM damage wrecked me, looking at that score sheet: "Highest Corruption 26" Seriously nasty, seemed like every other turn I was moving in the wrong direction and/or misfiring.

zxc · « **Reply #53 on:** September 13, 2015, 05:15:08 AM »

Won a third game - a rather messy stealth run. That probably won't be breaking any records. Took some screenshots for my guide though.

I also had a combat run which collapsed, and I was almost able to salvage it by switching to stealth with the single flight unit I had in my inventory. Reached -2 and died, but the potential was there.

Research remains the biggest killer for me, especially with combat runs.

zxc · « **Reply #54 on:** September 14, 2015, 01:27:04 AM »

Combat win remains elusive...

It doesn't seem like you can control situations well enough by combat. I just passed 18k score with a run that ended in Factory, and the attrition is just insane. There just aren't enough armour and storage units. I tried fabricating HCP storage units whenever I could, but it wasn't enough. Saboteurs are disgusting, and the waves of enemies are just endless.

This time I tried to go with more utilities and fewer weapons, to maximise the ability to mitigate damage by having slots for force fields, batteries, lots of armour, matter-energy converters, and lots of storage. But that doesn't work if you can't find those items faster than you lose them.

It feels like a meatgrinder. Maybe I will get a combat win when the stars align after several dozen runs like this. However, these runs are a lot more exhausting than stealth runs. Constantly swapping items, managing volleys, seeking out matter in the most turn efficient manner possible, and on top of that, trying to find the exit ASAP.

I think the player could do with a general accuracy buff and either more gradual influence increases, significant hack success rate increases for scan/fab machines, or item integrity boosts across the board. I understand that combat is meant to be the harder route, but as it stands, it is both harder and more random due to item attrition and the inability to reposition/escape well with overburdened treads.

Edit: And don't even get me started on recyclers. I think dropped items should have X turns immunity to the greedy bastards, maybe 50 for starters.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Kyzrati · « **Reply #55 on:** September 14, 2015, 05:08:08 AM »

Quote from: zxc on September 14, 2015, 01:27:04 AM

Combat win remains elusive...

I understand that combat is meant to be the harder route, but as it stands, it is both harder and more random due to item attrition and the inability to reposition/escape well with overburdened treads.

The late game will change significantly with the addition of new branches, including ways to make it easier (the first should come in Alpha 4), so it's too early to make other major adjustments there. For 3c I already made Research and Access about 20% easier than when Adraius won his combat run.

I might make some more tweaks when we get back to doing seed runs after the Alpha Challenge. I need to do some more full-length combat runs myself, though as you say they do take a good bit longer.

Quote from: zxc on September 14, 2015, 01:27:04 AM

Edit: And don't even get me started on recyclers. I think dropped items should have X turns immunity to the greedy bastards, maybe 50 for starters.

There are additional ways to deal with them that haven't been added yet, but they won't be outright nerfed like that. I almost never have problems with them as is--scaring them away works fine. Only in the occasional protracted intense battle do they get the upper hand.

Another change coming down the pipe: You'll be able to track them to the nearest Recycling Unit and hack to get back all the parts they collected. (As well as in other ways, to be announced...)

zxc · « **Reply #56 on:** September 14, 2015, 05:55:52 AM »

Quote from: Kyzrati on September 14, 2015, 05:08:08 AM

For 3c I already made Research and Access about 20% easier than when Adraius won his combat run.

However, Adraius has had difficulty replicating that run, which illustrates the randomness of combat runs in general. The number of HCP storage units you find or can create, for instance, is something you have very little control over yet has a lasting impact on the outcome of a combat run. Likewise, the number of armour pieces you find, and timely force fields and so on.

I am fairly consistently reaching -4 to -2, and consistently dying there due to attrition, while trying variations of Adraius' strategy. I'd like to discuss combat run theory-crafting in depth in another thread perhaps, but it seems to me that sooner or later a combat run will end due to attrition almost regardless of what the player does.

Also, my experience with traps so far is that they are certainly a net negative for the player. I haven't yet tried to rewire them, but for a stealth run I would guess that this is more trouble than simply avoiding both the trap and the enemy. For combat runs, all the programmer spawns make system corruption surge high, reducing hacking ability (making alert purge extremely difficult). Making use of rewired traps may also be difficult with overburdened treads and ranged enemies, and in any case they would be one-use, preventing

Happylisk · « **Reply #57 on:** September 14, 2015, 07:41:41 AM »

My last two runs ended in Research -2. While I agree that combat runs are way harder (duh) and RNG'y, I find them to be fair and exhilarating. I can tell I'm getting better cause I'm now able to see my mistakes. I feel like I'm on the cusp of a win. Most recent mistake: Forcefields without batteries is asking for pain.

Another thing: Recyclers in research drop medium storage units. Not ideal but had I remembered that one of my Research runs would have been very different.

I wouldn't mind an ever so slight increase in Hcp storage unit drops. That said, I think we can't really talk balance until we all understand the game better and the branches are in.

Kyzrati · « **Reply #58 on:** September 14, 2015, 09:50:04 AM »

Quote from: zxc on September 14, 2015, 05:55:52 AM

Quote from: Kyzrati on September 14, 2015, 05:08:08 AM
For 3c I already made Research and Access about 20% easier than when Adraius won his combat run.
However, Adraius has had difficulty replicating that run, which illustrates the randomness of combat runs in general.

True, though he's only played a couple games since the Challenge started... The mid- and late-game branches will be for those who would like to stack the odds more in their favor. Hopefully you'll be able to make decisions that adjust the difficult to a somewhat controllable degree, but still leave open the "I'm going to blast my way straight to the end" approach that some players may enjoy.

It looks like you were attracting quite a lot of attention in your combat run, compared to other players at that stage.

Quote from: zxc on September 14, 2015, 05:55:52 AM

Also, my experience with traps so far is that they are certainly a net negative for the player. I haven't yet tried to rewire them

Not rewiring them at all would make them a net negative, yes

Quote from: zxc on September 14, 2015, 05:55:52 AM

For combat runs, all the programmer spawns make system corruption surge high, reducing hacking ability (making alert purge extremely difficult).

Trap rewiring can be done via datajack, though, which is quite easy and unaffected by system corruption. There are some really mean things you can do with traps.

Also, I don't believe anyone's discovered the new way to reset your security level to 0 when it gets out of hand. It's somewhat costly, but under the right circumstances it can be useful... (There will be a tip on that later.)

zxc · « **Reply #59 on:** September 14, 2015, 10:16:44 AM »

Quote from: Kyzrati on September 14, 2015, 09:50:04 AM

Trap rewiring can be done via datajack, though, which is quite easy and unaffected by system corruption. There are some really mean things you can do with traps.

Well that's cool. I will need to play around with it more in a test run.

Quote from: Kyzrati on September 14, 2015, 09:50:04 AM

It looks like you were attracting quite a lot of attention in your combat run, compared to other players at that stage.

Oh yes. Oh yes. But I didn't seek out enemies intentionally. If anything, I try to avoid them, even with a combat build. But that's the combat build randomness that's I'm talking about. I just got heaps of enemies, and it just spiraled out of control despite my best efforts. I even purged threat once or twice.

Happylisk · « **Reply #60 on:** September 14, 2015, 10:25:38 AM »

So close. So close. Got to -1 with a less than ideal build but it was doable. Got into a nasty situation where in a long hallway there were two teams of terminators on either side. Prevailed but lost lots of key utilities and my launchers. Rebuilt, pressed on and

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So close. Assuming I have enough time to play, I think I'll squeeze out a win. I'm extremely sure that that the trick to research is drone bays and a really powerful launcher. I wouldn't have gotten to Access without my micro nuke launcher.

The post mortem:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Shobalk · « **Reply #61 on:** September 14, 2015, 11:40:42 AM »

Quote from: Kyzrati on September 14, 2015, 09:50:04 AM

Also, I don't believe anyone's discovered the new way to reset your security level to 0 when it gets out of hand. It's somewhat costly, but under the right circumstances it can be useful... (There will be a tip on that later.)

WHAT!?

Are there in-game clues at this point to deduce how to do this?

Kyzrati · « **Reply #62 on:** September 14, 2015, 08:45:49 PM »

Very close run, Happylisk!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

About Adraius, I was looking at the records, and he disappeared after only playing two very short runs that ended in -9, so our original combat Cogmind is unfortunately MIA :/

Quote from: Shobalk on September 14, 2015, 11:40:42 AM

WHAT!?

Are there in-game clues at this point to deduce how to do this?

Hehe, no. It's not impossible to deduce, but you'd have to get lucky or keep an unreasonably close eye on your security level. The hint will be available from NPCs you'll meet later (okay, they'll outright tell you). Like I said though, it's costly. It also may only be of limited use for anyone who can already punch their way through the Factory without too much difficulty, since it only works in the Factory.

zxc · « **Reply #63 on:** September 14, 2015, 10:35:59 PM »

Quote from: Kyzrati on September 14, 2015, 08:45:49 PM

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That's why zxc just makes sure to hack the location and get out of there as soon as possible.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Kyzrati · « **Reply #64 on:** September 14, 2015, 11:41:01 PM »

Excellent! It was my hope that experienced players will start to learn how each type of map is generally laid out, which while not always being a 100% certainty, this meta knowledge can free up some in-game resources for other uses.

zxc · « **Reply #65 on:** September 14, 2015, 11:44:45 PM »

Quote from: Kyzrati on September 14, 2015, 11:41:01 PM

Excellent! It was my hope that experienced players will start to learn how each type of map is generally laid out, which while not always being a 100% certainty, this meta knowledge can free up some in-game resources for other uses.

Finding exits in Research can be ridiculous though. It's like it's been designed for screwing with me! I do think Research is definitely the hardest part of the game, for any type of run.

Would be cool to generate layouts and see overviews of each map type with full visibility. I used to do it in DCSS wizmode to better learn level and monster generation.

Kyzrati · « **Reply #66 on:** September 14, 2015, 11:53:08 PM »

As per an earlier discussion with nsg21, it's possible we'll get map output capability. Not so sure about full visibility of undiscovered areas; some maps might be too easy to learn that way. We'll see, it's on the long-term list.

zxc · « **Reply #67 on:** September 14, 2015, 11:57:33 PM »

I was thinking something more like a large image output:

Also, I noticed recently I reached the edge of the map:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Could it be better to have an unbreakable wall around the edges instead of just blackness? I'm not sure really.

Kyzrati · « **Reply #68 on:** September 15, 2015, 12:06:41 AM »

Yeah, the map image is what I was talking about in the other thread. (You may have to read down a bit more.)

About the edges, that only happens if you dig/blast your way there, and I decided it was a waste of memory to pad a wall around the whole thing seeing as maps are so large. It also seems to me to be the more gamey approach, creating a visible barrier which implies it was built there.

Happylisk · « **Reply #69 on:** September 15, 2015, 06:50:33 AM »

Re: Maps, Access wasn't actually that bad.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm more determined than ever after my Access death. I'm going to modify my gameplan slightly by adding fabrication into the mix. Doing more terminal hacking (especially

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

really improved my game. I suspect not using basic fabrication is an unnecessary handicap, so it's time to fix that.

My goal is try to manufacture 2 Hcp. Storage Units before leaving Materials and 2 Drone bays before leaving Factory. The hcp units will take a lot of RNG out of the equation, and 2 drone bays are enough to make Research a thousand times easier (deploy one drone and then turn the bay off. If the first one finds the exit, deploying the second is a waste. Follow your drone around with the Alt-movement map command. If two are needed to find the exit, you want to delay the second launch anyway lest they travel together which is 99% of the time a waste).

K, I know drone bays are rating 3. Should be easy enough to get that schematic through indirect hacks. How much matter would it take to make one? Can I just have the matter in a container in my inventory, or do I need to attach it to a utility slot before fabrication? I've never done fabrication before.

Finally, I'm going to add

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

to my list of routine indirect hacks. If there are drone bays just lying around, that's a heck of a lot easier than manufacturing them.

zxc · « **Reply #70 on:** September 15, 2015, 07:17:48 AM »

Quote from: Happylisk on September 15, 2015, 06:50:33 AM

Re: Maps, Access wasn't actually that bad.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I tried hacking the exit, but without hackware that went nowhere fast. I remember reading that the exit in access is near the center of the map, and that proved true.

I was thinking about my run last night and what kills me is how, well, I got killed. After I found Command I was a bit confused (and extremely disappointed. I was so damn excited opening those three doors beforehand). I thought, hey maybe the main exit is just a bit south. Just a bit south turned out to be the 2 B-99 Colossi guarding Command who blew my armor and guns off. Had I been a bit more spoiled, I would have turned back upon finding Command and would have still had a shot at escaping. I'm playing cogmind about 95% unspoiled though so I appreciate learning that the hard way.

Also, I didn't realize there were branches in Research. Found Quarantine for the first time. Really looking forward to getting my hands on some Sigix gear when that branch opens.

I'm more determined than ever after my Access death. I'm going to modify my gameplan slightly by adding fabrication into the mix. Doing more terminal hacking (especially
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Access(Main))
really improved my game. I suspect not using basic fabrication is an unnecessary handicap, so it's time to fix that.

My goal is try to manufacture 2 Hcp. Storage Units before leaving Materials and 2 Drone bays before leaving Factory. The hcp units will take a lot of RNG out of the equation, and 2 drone bays are enough to make Research a thousand times easier (deploy one drone and then turn the bay off. If the first one finds the exit, deploying the second is a waste. Follow your drone around with the Alt-movement map command. If two are needed to find the exit, you want to delay the second launch anyway lest they travel together which is 99% of the time a waste).

K, I know drone bays are rating 3. Should be easy enough to get that schematic through indirect hacks. How much matter would it take to make one? Can I just have the matter in a container in my inventory, or do I need to attach it to a utility slot before fabrication? I've never done fabrication before.

Finally, I'm going to add
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Inventory(Components)
to my list of routine indirect hacks. If there are drone bays just lying around, that's a heck of a lot easier than manufacturing them.

Matter container in your inventory is fine for fabrication. It's interesting how highly you value drone bays. I haven't tried them out myself. Maybe I should.

Happylisk · « **Reply #71 on:** September 15, 2015, 07:43:51 AM »

You don't use drones?!? Seriously dude, that's why you're struggling in Research. A drone launch (especially when you do it right and stagger the drones) has a real decent high chance of finding the exit. Even if it doesn't, it'll show you caches of items, you know which rooms to skip, you can see patrols, etc. Less time exploring is less time getting programmers dispatched. I breezed through Research cause of just 2 bays. They're only rating 3 so I'm confidant a dedicated combat cog could probably fab them with ease.

Info is king in this game. A pure combat cog can't hack it (literally) and doesn't have the speed and the sensor arrays of a stealth build. Drone bays are the most reliable way for a combat cog to get info once the security levels of terminals gets too high.

E: I answered my question above. A drone bay just takes 40 matter to fab. That's nothing! However, I was wrong about their rating. Rating 5. I wonder how feasible it will be to reliably fab them absent dedicated hackware. If fabbing them proves too hard, using a certain terminal hack to find drone caches in factory and just fabbing hcp storage units may be the way to go.

Kyzrati · « **Reply #72 on:** September 15, 2015, 08:32:09 AM »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Happylisk on September 15, 2015, 07:43:51 AM

E: I answered my question above. A drone bay just takes 40 matter to fab. That's nothing! However, I was wrong about their rating. Rating 5. I wonder how feasible it will be to reliably fab them absent dedicated hackware. If fabbing them proves too hard, using a certain terminal hack to find drone caches in factory and just fabbing hcp storage units may be the way to go.

You've probably noticed there's often a cache found in Storage, too, if you want to go there. (Not 100% guaranteed, though.)

Kyzrati · « **Reply #73 on:** September 15, 2015, 08:32:59 AM »

Our latest set of stats:

zxc · « **Reply #74 on:** September 15, 2015, 11:36:33 AM »

Those min/max slot stats are very cool. I'm not sure they tell us that much, but I don't care, they're very cool!

I just had another combat run end in -3. This time I played much more carefully than usual, and made good use of drone bays (I now agree they are fantastic). I got lucky with some level exit hacks on -4 and -3, but reaching the stairs is another story. I'm telling you, I played it as perfectly as I could, but I still ended up dying simply due to attrition. I took a lot of screenshots to chronicle the run, especially the last floor where it all ended. I'm not sure there are major refinements to make to my strategy now - just playing carefully like that and hoping to get lucky. At the very end I ran out of weapons and took advantage of some flight units I was standing on to swap to flight and get away from a losing battle. With a few flight units and a power source I reached the stairs, but it was blocked by a sentry and I had enemies on all sides. I tried waiting nearby to get the sentry to move, but my core integrity was too low and I ended up dying before it moved. 12k score, reflecting my avoidance of enemies and care. Also, not a single HCP storage unit, and so few armour items to be had that I was suffocating. I still had a decent setup around late factory due to a cache of Imp. Force Fields and good power sources, but without enough armour they eventually all fell off.

I hate nosy ARCs.

Also, what exactly is the kill streak stat?

Edit:

Screenshot story of that run:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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Author Topic: Alpha Challenge 2015 (September 8-22) (Read 152496 times)