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Author Topic: Alpha1b fanfare!  (Read 9912 times)

Sylverone

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Alpha1b fanfare!
« on: June 12, 2015, 11:31:50 PM »

I thought I'd start a thread for commentary on the new build, even if it is meant to be a "minor release". (Announced here.) First I'd like to say that I was impressed with the number of changes and fixes. I seems like an impressive amount considering the amount of time.

  • The motion trails are nice, and I've had them on and cranked up to max since downloading.  ;)
  • The events/status indicators for machines are very nice.
  • The previous-target-flashing-on-mouse-initiated-volley-targeting is nice also.

I'd like to ask what this means:
Quote
MOD: Indirect item/robot schematic hacks limited by normal distribution rules
It may be due to a lack of familiarity on my part, but I don't immediately grasp how the "bell-curve" might be inserted into the indirect hacking process. Does it take the old difficulty settings of different schematics and remap them to the bell curve, so the difficult ones are now *very* difficult. Ie, schematics beyond your current hacking ability more rapidly become impractical to attain?

In summation, like others I am impressed with the level of focus (not getting distracted from your "big picture" for the game) and organization with which you work, and I get the impression you would make a good mentor (or whoever/whatever taught you if you aren't the teaching type) in some respects such as design and efficiency in development. If you have any suggestions for how/where to learn these skills, I think people might be interested. Maybe you've written about it before?

Also, the degree of responsiveness to and respect for your budding community stands out.

So, congrats on your successes so far. ;)
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Sylverone

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2015, 04:22:05 AM »

Okay, one unfortunate note about the motion trails; with them turned on max it becomes trivial to follow a scout down twisting hallways (maybe into danger, but it does make them easier to hunt down and destroy before they let out their signal). Is this too much of an advantage?
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biomatter

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2015, 04:33:51 AM »

Shhh, don't tell Kyzrati
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Sylverone

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2015, 04:53:43 AM »

Oh! *Whisper whisper*  ;D
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biomatter

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2015, 05:00:00 AM »

It is not a coincidence that I have trails cranked to max duration
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Kyzrati

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2015, 05:51:09 AM »

I was impressed with the number of changes and fixes. I seems like an impressive amount considering the amount of time.
Ah, the advantage of being able to work on a game full time :D. This release actually only took five days to prepare, since I cherry picked all the easy stuff from a much longer list of requests. The main goal was to just get bug fixes out of the way, as they're the #1 priority for any release, though I don't anticipate many more now that we've gotten the initial batch out of the way.

I would call a "major" release something that adds big new features and/or entire branches (as future releases will). Those might even end up with ostensibly shorter changelogs, where really a single line like "Added Cave branches" could encompass a lot of work.

The motion trails are nice, and I've had them on and cranked up to max since downloading. ;)
Wow, the max?! And I thought the recommended 2 seconds was pretty long. I'd be distracted by too much more color, but hey that's what tweakable options are for!

The events/status indicators for machines are very nice.
Those were a great feature request--easy to implement and provide important information right on the map.

The previous-target-flashing-on-mouse-initiated-volley-targeting is nice also.
Glad someone's getting use out of that. I wasn't sure if it would be entirely helpful since I'm a keyboard user, but it seemed like mouse users could benefit since you can't use the "auto-target previous target" feature.

I'd like to ask what this means:
Quote
MOD: Indirect item/robot schematic hacks limited by normal distribution rules
It may be due to a lack of familiarity on my part, but I don't immediately grasp how the "bell-curve" might be inserted into the indirect hacking process. Does it take the old difficulty settings of different schematics and remap them to the bell curve, so the difficult ones are now *very* difficult. Ie, schematics beyond your current hacking ability more rapidly become impractical to attain?
It's simpler than that. Difficulty itself was not changed at all; instead access to schematics is now also limited by your depth. The higher you get the better the schematics. This was intended from the start, and was always the case with direct hacking, but indirect hacking was broken in that you could get nearly anything (so the only real effect of the changes are on those manually hacking for specific schematics).

The system is still not perfect--you can only really hack schematics/analysis that are rated as close to or below your depth, but it's not easy to remember what rating everything has and whether it's worth trying to hack something from your current location.

In summation, like others I am impressed with the level of focus (not getting distracted from your "big picture" for the game) and organization with which you work, and I get the impression you would make a good mentor (or whoever/whatever taught you if you aren't the teaching type) in some respects such as design and efficiency in development. If you have any suggestions for how/where to learn these skills, I think people might be interested. Maybe you've written about it before?
I've thought about writing more in that vein, but haven't published anything specifically about that--the closest piece that touches on related project management topics are this post and to a lesser extent this one (purely describing the organization of the project).

I have quite a few years of professional mentoring experience, so I still draw on that when I write, but ever since I decided to work on game development full time I've had to drop pretty much everything else.

I'm sure I inherited much of my own organizational/management tendencies from my parents, since I never learned it in an official capacity, but began working as a freelancer in a logistics-related field from an early age. Specific skills were for the most part self-taught by putting myself in situations where they were absolutely required. That's a good enough way to learn almost anything ;). (I think the main caveat would be that this method requires one to have a strong sense of responsibility, otherwise it's possible that laziness could become a hindrance when the going gets tough. And the going always gets tough at some point :P.)

As for not getting distracted from the big picture once an entire community is involved, I think it boils down to a pair of pretty simple rules:
1. Have a clear vision in the first place.
2. Always question whether decisions feed into that vision. If they don't, then don't be afraid to reject them, or sometimes there's room for compromise, and either way the extra interaction is good in the long run (though it does slow things down), since it forces one to once again question the original decisions. In short, always do things with good reason.

Also, the degree of responsiveness to and respect for your budding community stands out.

So, congrats on your successes so far. ;)
Thank you, it's the proper indie way ;D.

Shhh, don't tell Kyzrati
Wait, what?

Okay, one unfortunate note about the motion trails; with them turned on max it becomes trivial to follow a scout down twisting hallways (maybe into danger, but it does make them easier to hunt down and destroy before they let out their signal). Is this too much of an advantage?
It is not a coincidence that I have trails cranked to max duration
#^!#%$!%#!&

Okay you feature-abusers, you... Maybe we need a cap on that. Or perhaps the best solution is to automatically clear trails every time you move, or maybe every other space moved.

The primary benefit of trails was supposed to be tracking hostiles while in combat and large volleys are being sent back and forth. Chasing robots down by tracking them through corridors and rooms without seeing them is pretty cheap. Sure you could attach sensors and do it legitimately, but it shouldn't be FREE! =p

I could possibly add an actual part that shows you different heat trails while active (and those could last much longer!), though I remember having cut this out of the original 7DRL design for some reason...
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CormacMccarthy91

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2015, 01:58:10 PM »

Making a Utility that enables the trails sounds like the perfect solution, a heat tracking system or something.
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Supernovadx

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2015, 02:05:23 PM »

Quote
Making a Utility that enables the trails sounds like the perfect solution, a heat tracking system or something.

To be honest that's what I thought the trails were going to be all along, I didn't expect them to just pop up in the options. They allow you to see enemies even if they are out of sight. Kyzrati, as much as I love them I think they would be better off in an item.
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biomatter

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2015, 06:59:45 PM »

I know nothing of coding, but my question would be: why are the trails being rendered if I couldn't see the unit in the first place? Wouldn't the 'easy fix' be to only draw them if I have LoS, thus removing the abuse I am currently subjecting the game to?
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Kyzrati

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2015, 07:29:42 PM »

The trails were just a quick feature added in to test the system and how you guys would use it to solve the tracking issues raised earlier--not having tested them much on my own except to see that they work.

If they were to become a utility-enabled option, I would have to make them not fade in real-time, instead becoming a turn-based fade which would start to muddy the map view. The trails could of course at least become somewhat fainter in that setup, which might work. How many of you might use it if a utility was required?

biomatter's suggestion would be an easy way to keep it a freely available option.

Any others want to provide input on which they prefer? A utility-based benefit with turn-based trail fading, or an option-based effect with real-time fade that only shows trails for robots in view?
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biomatter

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2015, 08:10:59 PM »

Damn. Personally, I can't choose. Both of those sound cool. I'll let others work it out - I can live without either.
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jimmijamjams

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2015, 09:19:39 PM »

I'm with biomatter on this one.  It's a tough decision.

But my two cents is this :) :

The original reason for introducing this feature was to make following the movement of robots easier for new players (at least that's my understanding).  If the feature stays as an option, maybe limit the trail to only 2-3 squares.  This means that you can still follow "heat signatures" without it being too game-breaking.

If an item is introduced that augments this I have no idea how to balance it and what rating it should have (some testing would need to happen), or if the benefit is significant enough to equip an item like this at all.  I guess going back to the usual "is this in-line with the theme of the game and does it add something useful" (I know the mantra goes something like that, Kyzrati) would be the best course of action rather than leaving it up to the community.

If keeping the motion trails adds clarity to the game I'm all for it as long as it is nerfed in some way so that it doesn't get abused (yes, I'm looking at you, biomatter).
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 09:22:05 PM by jimmijamjams »
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Arseface

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2015, 10:12:42 PM »

Any others want to provide input on which they prefer? A utility-based benefit with turn-based trail fading, or an option-based effect with real-time fade that only shows trails for robots in view?

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CormacMccarthy91

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2015, 11:44:20 PM »

Any others want to provide input on which they prefer? A utility-based benefit with turn-based trail fading, or an option-based effect with real-time fade that only shows trails for robots in view?


If you have it as an option whats the point of having it as a utility, when you can just turn it on whenever?
I say just remove it personally. Either that or have it as an option and only mark up to 2 spaces behind what moves, and fade really fast.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 11:54:12 PM by CormacMccarthy91 »
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Warmist

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2015, 01:23:19 AM »

Imho it's too minor of a thing to be a utility. Maybe if it was "true" infrared (or just heat sense) and you could see through walls?
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Kyzrati

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2015, 01:32:43 AM »

I guess going back to the usual "is this in-line with the theme of the game and does it add something useful" (I know the mantra goes something like that, Kyzrati) would be the best course of action rather than leaving it up to the community.
Oh don't worry, I always make the final decision ;). I'm just asking for more opinions since sometimes players will come up with something I didn't yet take into consideration, or I can get a feel for general use case scenarios by players others than myself--good to have that point of reference.

The utility idea would require that it be useful enough to be worth a slot. I have to balance all utilities so that each has approximately equal worth in terms of how many slots it occupies, otherwise some parts will almost never be used by anyone (except those players who don't know better). For this reason I will sometimes tweak the effect strength of an ability or even combine multiple abilities into a single utility, as you see with hackware and the new Structural Scanner ability.

The easiest place to start would be simply showing trails only for visible robots, since that does fix the original problem this was introduced to solve. Making them no longer than 2 spaces is another interesting possibility.

I don't think heat trails alone are necessarily good enough for a slot--at that point you may as well have standard sensors.

On a related note, one idea that came up when designing the 7DRL was whether to implement multiple map views that could show you residual heat, infrared, EM fields, and all kinds of other stuff, but I decided to scrap all that since the features seemed either redundant or not worth the price of a slot.
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Supernovadx

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2015, 04:11:29 AM »

Ok ok, here is my suggestion that fits the why not both category. Are you ready?
First, make it an item. Bam ok, whats step 2
2) Now that it's an item, give it different levels where each level can see different trail distances so the first one can see 3 place, next 5 etc...
c) Put the Augmentation in the starting area so you have the option to take it, and have the Android dude 17 reccomend picking it up for new players.

Personally I do think it's worth a slot. I think it would be great to have at the start, and if I don't need it later I'll just drop it. But imagine the insight for dodging watchers with longer trails from higher upgrades. I'd have to test them myself, but I think it sounds like a solid plan especially for stealth.

How does this sound?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 04:13:52 AM by Supernovadx »
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Arseface

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2015, 04:57:48 AM »

As far as I'm concerned, not many things are worth a utility slot. The game is an amalgam of not-good enough parts and a couple god-tier parts.
So the not being worth a slot thing doesn't convince me.

Aside from that, heat trails give a valuable piece of information that sensors don't, and that's the direction a robot is moving in. Sensors don't do a good job of showing what's moving where, and that can be insanely helpful in predicting swarmer/eye patrols. It would also pair well with longer distance opticals.

Would it be better than a sensor? Generally not. Would it be better than nothing, and could it be given energy/heat/mass that might make it more useful as a fill in for certain builds? Absolutely.

If you have it as an option whats the point of having it as a utility, when you can just turn it on whenever?
One is a convenient way of displaying movement in your line of sight. The other is a powerful tool for detecting movement outside your line of sight.
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CormacMccarthy91

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2015, 09:53:36 AM »

As far as I'm concerned, not many things are worth a utility slot. The game is an amalgam of not-good enough parts and a couple god-tier parts.
So the not being worth a slot thing doesn't convince me.

Aside from that, heat trails give a valuable piece of information that sensors don't, and that's the direction a robot is moving in. Sensors don't do a good job of showing what's moving where, and that can be insanely helpful in predicting swarmer/eye patrols. It would also pair well with longer distance opticals.

Would it be better than a sensor? Generally not. Would it be better than nothing, and could it be given energy/heat/mass that might make it more useful as a fill in for certain builds? Absolutely.

If you have it as an option whats the point of having it as a utility, when you can just turn it on whenever?
One is a convenient way of displaying movement in your line of sight. The other is a powerful tool for detecting movement outside your line of sight.

you already have sensors to detect movement outside your sight line though...
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Arseface

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2015, 01:38:25 PM »

you already have sensors to detect movement outside your sight line though...
Last I checked sensors detected location, not movement. Direction is a big deal with swarmers and watchers.
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jimmijamjams

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2015, 07:57:52 PM »

I've just had a thought about "heat signatures" if we were to have them as an item in the game as opposed to being an option that can be toggled.

Rather than have them as an individual item they could potentially be rolled into the kit of a Watcher.  For example, it could be that instead of a Watcher just having a Light Ion Engine they have an Augmented Light Ion Engine that allows them to see heat signatures.  This makes sense to me as something they would have and is thematic to the game.

Thoughts?
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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2015, 08:24:15 PM »

I've just had a thought about "heat signatures" if we were to have them as an item in the game as opposed to being an option that can be toggled.

Rather than have them as an individual item they could potentially be rolled into the kit of a Watcher.  For example, it could be that instead of a Watcher just having a Light Ion Engine they have an Augmented Light Ion Engine that allows them to see heat signatures.  This makes sense to me as something they would have and is thematic to the game.

Thoughts?
That's not the feature of an engine. I don't think it fits.
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jimmijamjams

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2015, 08:40:33 PM »

That's not the feature of an engine. I don't think it fits.

Not a feature of an engine yet  :D

I do agree, but if you were to acquire this as an item off anyone it would be a Watcher (or maybe a Programmer).  I just don't think it fits as both a toggled feature and an item.  In my mind having it as both is like having any number of the current toggled options as an item.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Alpha1b fanfare!
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2015, 08:46:59 PM »

Yeah, I don't think it makes sense as an engine feature.

Also, as you've all probably noticed I've generally kept it such that only utilities have special abilities. (There are a few exceptions, but they're rare.)

This could become a unique utility, or if it's not valuable enough could be attached as a secondary ability to an existing utility. Unfortunately sensors are already pretty powerful as is.

I've yet to explore a final solution for this, but I'll probably be starting with a basic FOV limitation in the next version and work from there.
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