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Author Topic: Balance Overhaul  (Read 35529 times)

zxc

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #100 on: November 04, 2020, 01:28:48 PM »

Also, it's about time someone brought up the core exposure idea from the discord.

Idea: dramatic increase of core exposure of robots and Cogmind across the board, e.g. 2-3x current core coverage.

Benefits:

- Faster paced battles
- More offensive focus
- Positioning and first hits more important
- Substantially buffs early-game flight/stealth (and later-game slightly)
- Makes core integrity more relevant
- Makes core shielding relevant
- Reduced part attrition
- More thematic e.g. you have to protect your exposed core
- Nerfs IR
- Buffs Hyp. EM Gauss Rifle

Downsides:

- Makes crit too strong for the player

I see this as the perfect complement to reducing inventory capacities. Discuss.

edit: I wrote this post separately to my post in favour of no_stack which is at the end of the previous page. It is basically part 2 of that.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 01:33:35 PM by zxc »
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GJ

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2020, 04:12:33 AM »

Further analysis of magnified core exposure...

Upsides:
- Relative nerf to corruption. While corruption and overheating will still solve an encounter where you don't get your core hits, it'll be less outright preferable to a damage approach. There are currently some enemies with significant EM resistances that are still notably easier to corrupt with a single HERF Cannon than they would be to kill with a typical damage-based loadout.

- Increased difficulty to so-called "greedy" strats, where you kill Exiles, Zion, etc., or go for the longest and most dangerous/rewarding approach to ZDC. These are not all that greedy in the average seed, by which I mean they are quite doable without any special variance, e.g. you don't need to find rarer items that are good for them. Shifting these further away from being "meta strats" towards "seed-opportunistic alternatives" is likely good.

Downsides:
- Significant and unnecessary buff to crits, penetration, guided weapons and explosive launchers in general. Significant nerf to melee enemies. There's already rather many encounters that are resolvable with ~zero damage taken, so some of the benefits zxc lists seem more like downsides to me.

Potential downsides:
- Fights with allies become more volatile/swingy. Less wait-time from large-scale battles could be good, but it'll affect the reliability of allies.

Regarding core attrition in general, I do think a bit more of it would be welcome, but also suspect it's close enough to where one wants it to be that 3x core coverage would be devastating, not to flight/hover but to other stuff.

2x might be manageable, it would result in changes to how you approach combat. Some of those changes would be nice, like the relative increase to the value of core shielding: they currently have a bad comparison to the expected value of alternate utils you could equip instead, this is somewhat true even when you're explicitly concerned about core attrition --- more than anything the difference in Equip Core Shielding vs Equip More Coverage is the sort of thing that matters here.

The main negative change is... this is the sort of thing that could tilt gameplay too much in favor of offense and cleaning things up before you really get hit. DPS vs Tank considerations for combat are in a decent spot at the moment, though with a clear and slightly excessive bias for "loads of integrity", arising mainly from excessive storage. It's probably maximum fun for 'tank' to be the main approach by a slight margin, such that positioning and clean kills do matter, and tankiness isn't so good that there's no significant swinginess/variance to what breaks. When offense is the main approach you get rather swingy and hectic gameplay that might not be a good fit for Cogmind's length and the amount of enemies you fight, it's very heavy on combat micromanagement for a game where tactics will still always matter even when tankier strats are meta.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 04:18:40 AM by GJ »
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Kyzrati

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #102 on: November 06, 2020, 04:46:49 PM »

Yeah there are a number of good points up there about no_stack, from zxc. Makes it more likely I'd want to try testing that approach out first.

Feel free to discuss core exposure, but there's no plan to increase it. Some of those things listed as "benefits" are either downsides (to me) or [assuming they're desirable changes] can easily be addressed via other means.
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zxc

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #103 on: November 07, 2020, 04:28:43 AM »

Benefits:

...

- Buffs Hyp. EM Gauss Rifle

Some of those things listed as "benefits" are either downsides (to me)

>:(

Other random tidbits on (mostly) game balance so that my post isn't solely a joke:

- I can see EMDS being a target of nerfing at some point
- Door/special terminal change is playing out nicely I think
- Is the combat too launcher-focused?
- I would like to see the explosive potential of power slot items from EM damage listed in their stats
- Being able to trigger multiple investigation squads from the same alarm trap array via AOE seems dodgy
- Cmb linears need to be prototype (and possibly other/all cmb hovers)
- Something about siege mode giving a substantial flat accuracy buff seems off to me, like it's too easy to obtain the full benefit without a build dedicated to it. Might prefer if it upped the acc % buff per tread slot.
- Don't let us find 2+ of hyp EM gauss / tachyon in lab... it really sucks

I have more thoughts on core exposure but I'll save them for another time as I'm trying out some combat runs and will see how things feel.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2020, 04:30:49 AM by zxc »
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GJ

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #104 on: November 08, 2020, 02:18:57 AM »

Quote
EMDS
Got nerfed already, still busted. Busted aspects are:
- 80 coverage per slot (and standard integrity) for an item you can acquire multiple of or weapon shield
- 22 range penetrating EM with moderate accuracy boost (unique identity that's unlikely to change?)
- Notably more EM damage than other weapons you are likely to have access to

If you compare it to Linked Autogun, you can see that that weapon while still good has some awkwardness to it that makes it less obvious to farm for it or jam it in your inventory. Linkies are below-average integrity/slot and don't strongly synergize with firing one weapon at a time, protecting your offense with shieldings thus becomes harder and you have reason to prefer other alternatives, like stacking Helicals/Multirails for integrity. Range is another reason to do that.

Quote
Is the combat too launcher-focused?
In the sense of launchers being necessary, no. You have real alternatives, e.g. gunsling can just miss into swarmers until it enters siege mode and picks off whatever remains. Launchers do happen to be extremely efficient, their matter costs feel sort-of balanced around bad-RNG scenarios where you launch 3-5 times to kill the whole group rather than efficient 1-3 launches then cleaning up with other weapons. Their alert gain doesn't seem significant with the methods there are to manage that, and I think early walls don't even boost alert much --- and they're good for sterilization so this is less of an outright issue nowadays. You do have good reasons not to go launcher-mad in R branches, unless you're explicitly playing for sterilization and discarding the alert management option.

Mni. Smartbomb seems like it has a damage-roll capable of sterilizing w/ launcher-loader, it's a bit weird that that launcher does everything you'd ever want an EX-launcher to do, assuming you fulfill the general criteria of having some matter utils. Maybe the 2 waypoints, range or the ceiling on its damage roll should go down, currently it feels like you can guide it to point-blank explode on just about anything from anywhere, and it kills very fast.

Launchers are seemingly maximum efficiency for high-sec arcs, Executioners and Strikers have nerfed penetration strats somewhat with opening up walls and more aggressive ARC dispatches likely to get you surrounded a bit, that's more effective at counterbalancing penetration than Programmers and Archangels are at counterbalancing launcher abuse: you can still corrupt through the Progs and you might engine-explode them into the next world, with Archangels you just shoot at the right spot to avoid interception. It's also notable that ARCs popping gives you good matter for launcher-abuse.

Quote
Being able to trigger multiple investigation squads from the same alarm trap array via AOE seems dodgy
Only happens with AoE EM, which is kinda busted in general and it's a flavorful & unique interaction.

Quote
Cmb linears need to be prototype (and possibly other/all cmb hovers)
The absolute highest-end cmb. hover that's better than antigravs which were already very good and common... yeah, I could see it being prototype. With the other ones it comes down to whether you want to incentivize players to e.g. go imprint and fab cmb. hover because they got a cmb. airjet in Mines, that seems fine as far as branch interactions/incentives go. Having some reason to potentially value hackware or Hubs on imprint is good.

Quote
Something about siege mode giving a substantial flat accuracy buff seems off to me, like it's too easy to obtain the full benefit without a build dedicated to it. Might prefer if it upped the acc % buff per tread slot.
Yeah, players are carrying 1x. siege tread on flight/hover these days to fight things like Intercepts. Having at least the accuracy boost scale from the amount of treads sieged would be nice. At the moment it's very powerful to the point of de-emphasizing targeting computers (with some exceptions), so redoing the numbers to nerf 2-prop treads and even slightly nerf 4-prop treads would be fine.

Quote
Don't let us find 2+ of hyp EM gauss / tachyon in lab... it really sucks
There aren't that many possible rolls for the L weapon combo, and getting even one PC is very, very good. PCs are currently strangely common*, they really shouldn't be even more common.

*
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 02:26:20 AM by GJ »
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Kyzrati

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #105 on: November 09, 2020, 03:57:01 AM »

Yeah I always thought the Alarm Trap thing was due to the instances where they're not part of a single array, since I hadn't seen any other instances myself, but it seems that's not the case and it can sometimes happen even with an array.

I didn't want siege accuracy to start tread-based since that just complicates things since there are also two different types, but if people are abusing it then that would be reason enough to change it.

I don't think any hovers need to even be considered for individual modification until after mass support and storage is updated--that's getting too ahead of things.

Mni. Smartbomb is already on the nerf list, as is EMDS.

Quote
I would like to see the explosive potential of power slot items from EM damage listed in their stats
Yeah I know, might happen one day, just low priority.
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GJ

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #106 on: November 18, 2020, 02:54:43 PM »

Suggestion: nerf the frequency of Exp. Sensor event in Mines.

I think I've played enough since it got attached to a scrap pile to claim that it's very common, and the encounter seed catalog for 10.1 seems to suggest it's about coinflip odds to be present in a run. The issue here is that even though I have no preference for sensors, wouldn't go out of my way to acquire them, it feels like the majority of my runs still end up building around a sensor-effect. Partially because Farcom is occasionally attractive/optimal, but mostly because you're not gonna ignore the best sensor array in the game when you find it in a scrap pile.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #107 on: November 18, 2020, 09:10:19 PM »

I could but I'm not really eager to adjust that because it will naturally go down as more encounters are added to the Mines.

It actually used to be rarer, but since the Exiles were added we got a third Mines depth, which made it much more common...
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 09:13:10 PM by Kyzrati »
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GJ

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #108 on: November 19, 2020, 08:08:02 AM »

I suspect you'd have to add quite a lot of encounters for that alone to make its frequency to feel good. Maybe that's the plan and maybe there'll be some more branch competition with Mines eventually --- currently Storage only rarely competes with Mines and -9 happens to be the good depth for doing Exiles, so you tend to plan for doing Mines on -9 and might not even double-check if the floor has Storage before going in.

If we assume Exp. Sensor shows up like this in 50% of seeds then good players with no branch preference will find it in perhaps 39% of runs. I think you'd want this number to be closer to... 25%? Currently the main stuff that pushes you to play sensors regardless of preference is this event, sensor drone bay, Mak. Sensor in Caves scrap or Derelict maps, and Exp. Sensor schematic from DM. The bay is quite rare, and relative to the other ones that give you an actual sensor util... this is easily the best one 'cause fabbing is cheapest on -7, in fact you probably end up with 2 exp. sensors on -7 and that has a tendency to last forever. Having that happen at anything close to coinflip-odds feels kinda oppressive, it's not just a high frequency of easy runs it's easy runs that play out in a very similar pattern.
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Kyzrati

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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #109 on: November 19, 2020, 06:41:34 PM »

The other reason it might not matter quite as much in the near term is that high-level sensor ranges are likely to be nerfed in Beta 11.
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Re: Balance Overhaul
« Reply #110 on: November 21, 2020, 04:40:02 PM »

That said, today while reading Discord I was reminded that part of what makes that event seem more common is that it's now visible, so quite a few people have been bringing up the fact that they get it a lot now, since the Scrap pile change. So yeah I think I'll also readjust some of the Mines encounter frequencies for next release (on top of the likely range nerf :P).
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