Ambush Traps: some thoughts

[Happylisk]

Apparently all I'm good for is complaining to the admin cogmind about traps.

So, Ambush traps.  I had 2 runs basically ended by them yesterday.  In the first one, on -7 I stepped on an ambush trap in a room.  Out pop a grunt and a pest (who cares) and 2 brawlers and a duelist (oh shit).  The melee enemies were like 2 tiles away or so, were on me immediately, and proceed to bash my processors in and slice off my weapons respectively.  I was literally naked in 4 turns. 

I'll readily admit this entirely preventable - I was in the room cause it had a terminal, I saw one ambush trap, correctly surmised it was a minefield layout, and went in hoping for the best.  So, stupidity on my part.

Second run, I'm walking around -6 and in the middle of the hallway step on one.  Same thing happens, I suddenly have 2 melee guys right next to me.  My only option was to slap on a launcher and blow em up pointblank at extreme cost to my build.

So.  Most other traps hinder you but not extremely so (bit of damage here, bit of corruption there).  Ambush traps have the very real potential to strip your parts and force you to flee naked.  Even though you can always "come back," this is far more likely to precipitate a death march.  My game design view is stepping on a trap in an empty room should never have a realistic chance of totally wrecking you. 

My suggestions:

-Have enemies spawn a bit farther away (esp. melee enemies) to give you more of a fighting chance.
-Perhaps decrease melee spawn rates in ambush trap groups, at least until upper factory

Spoiler

Or you could do something like chute traps, where there is slight chance that the Warlord's derelicts have ensconced themselves in the trap and are released as allies.  That would make ambush traps potentially among the nastier traps (just like chute traps can be), but also with the possibility of real reward.  I've definitely intentionally triggered chutes before.  The fact that that's a choice a player can make really shows that they're very well designed.

Out of curiosity, what on earth happens if you reprogram an ambush traps???

[close]

-

[Kyzrati]

I'll say I agree ambush traps are the most controversial of the bunch, and spawning melee robots out of them is downright mean.

However, I like that melee bots can suddenly be close by. I'll put a cap on their number, and intentionally make sure they emerge from the furthest spots available, so it's not quite so mean.

Also, heed your own advice and don't walk into what might be a minefield . I was playtesting today and anytime I had no scanner and was worried about a minefield I'd just give it a wide berth through various means (or pull out my launcher in some cases).

(Aside: I really like the new dynamics traps have added to the game overall. Not that it was 100% good for me, but I was getting low on weapons today and confronted by some Programmers, which I charged towards and happened to trigger a massive EMP trap, which chain-triggered all the others in the hall, took out all the walls, and blew up all the reactors in the neighboring room where the hostiles were coming from. Cleared out the entire area for me )

More Discussion

Or you could do something like chute traps, where there is slight chance that the Warlord's derelicts have ensconced themselves in the trap and are released as allies.

Not to spoil the surprise, but you apparently haven't triggered very many ambush traps

There are three different sub-types of ambush traps.

That would make ambush traps potentially among the nastier traps (just like chute traps can be), but also with the possibility of real reward.  I've definitely intentionally triggered chutes before.  The fact that that's a choice a player can make really shows that they're very well designed.

I'm glad you think so! The intent was very much to be a "some players may even want to do this" sorta thing. There are multiple benefits to visiting Waste, more than one of which it's likely you haven't discovered yet

Out of curiosity, what on earth happens if you reprogram an ambush traps???

I'll just tell you: The same thing that normally happens, but if there are no hostiles around whatever jumps out will just wander off.

[close]

-

[zxc]

Going to hijack this thread and say that stasis traps can be very mean for a flimsy stealth build.

Check out these screenshots of AWFUL moments to fly on stasis traps:

Spoiler

Right in front of a behemoth.


This is THE most awful thing you have ever seen.




Pretty sure that run ended in a loss later on in that floor.

[close]

Ambush traps actually haven't given me that much grief. Also I've now begun a habit of firing rockets into traps when I need to cross them and there is no way around it.

[Happylisk]

Spoiler

I'm glad you think so! The intent was very much to be a "some players may even want to do this" sorta thing. There are multiple benefits to visiting Waste, more than one of which it's likely you haven't discovered yet

[close]

Big spoilers ahead, abandon all hope ye who enter here

Spoiler

I am 100% sure that Waste contains the secret to zero security level.  I know of some of the benefits of Waste (looting executors, the derelict army, the derelict cache), but I'm sure there's more.  I suspect there's a hidden terminal there that you can hack to report "waste destroyed" but more exploration is needed.  After the tournament I'm going down there with a mining laser just to excavate the place.  Not going to do it now to preserve my average score

Also, because I am greedy and selfish, any chance you can make executors count towards Giant Slayer?  For shits and giggles I went into waste once this tournie with 2 missile launchers and killed all of them single handedly.

[close]

edit: lol zxc that's brutal

[Kyzrati]

Going to hijack this thread and say that stasis traps can be very mean for a flimsy stealth build.

Intended, but those are some jaw-dropping shots!!! In the first you just fired the grenade launcher at the wall, yeah? That's what I woulda done

If you're worried about Stasis you could carry around a Structural Scanner, though you'd also want need to slow down a bit to more effectively scan any new areas you enter. (Obviously there are Stasis Nullifiers as well, but they're more rare and too situational for general use--scanners have broader applications.)

@Happylisk: As much as that is an impressive feat (I expect most Cogminds run for their lives ), and it's somewhat appropriate, it wouldn't be fair to change the achievement. Not to mention Compactors don't even shoot back--go face off with some Behemoths! I'm surprised the current tally on that is rather low. I know jimmijamjams would bag a bunch of them; too bad he's another of our MIA skilled players :/

[zxc]

In the first you just fired the grenade launcher at the wall, yeah? That's what I woulda done

Wait what? You can get out of stasis that way?

I would've done it in a heartbeat in both situations, ESPECIALLY the second one. I thought the only way out was to struggle against it for who knows how much game time it takes to break free. I've started thinking that stasis traps are one of the biggest dangers to a stealth run and those stasis cancellers I was going to start carrying in my inventory to swap in those situations.

Edit: Except in the second one I didn't have a launcher.

The first situation wasn't so bad. Behemoths really aren't that scary. Buff them Kyzrati 

Spoiler

Also, I don't even know what the Waste is. Sounds like a branch. I'm guessing it's off Factory. I have some severe knowledge gaps in this game somehow

[close]

[Happylisk]

Re behemoths:  I've killed 5 of them!  But of course I only fry em with EMP to maximize salvage, and corrupting them to death doesn't get the kill count.  Nuking a behemoth to death is a terrible, terrible waste for a combat cogmind.  I see them as giant present boxes (bristling with guns). 

Fair point on fairness re: executors.  Can't argue!

[Kyzrati]

In the first you just fired the grenade launcher at the wall, yeah? That's what I woulda done

Wait what? You can get out of stasis that way?

Why not?! The trap is what's holding you in stasis; blow it up = nothing to hold you in stasis! Get creative

I've started thinking that stasis traps are one of the biggest dangers to a stealth run and those stasis cancellers I was going to start carrying in my inventory to swap in those situations.

There are other solutions, too.

The first situation wasn't so bad. Behemoths really aren't that scary. Buff them Kyzrati 

Ha, it's true they often look scarier than they really are. But that's okay, because we need to leave some room for the robots that are way scarier than that, the ones you just haven't met yet

Re behemoths:  I've killed 5 of them!  But of course I only fry em with EMP to maximize salvage, and corrupting them to death doesn't get the kill count.  Nuking a behemoth to death is a terrible, terrible waste for a combat cogmind.  I see them as giant present boxes (bristling with guns). 

Ah right, I forgot that you use a lot of EMP and that is generally the easiest way to take one down (which is part of the reason I'm not too keen on giving the player credit for it under those circumstances--it's almost too easy and you get a ton of loot out of the deal). Five is a respectable number, though!

[zxc]

I will remember that re: EMP vs behemoths. EM guns are actually the ones I've been avoiding mostly, tending more towards direct damage heavy kinetic and thermal.

[jimmijamjams]

Check out these screenshots of AWFUL moments to fly on stasis traps:

Awesome!

I know jimmijamjams would bag a bunch of them; too bad he's another of our MIA skilled players :/

I'm still here, just lurking when I'm on the bus . I'm desperate to get some games down!

[Kyzrati]

I'm still here, just lurking when I'm on the bus . I'm desperate to get some games down!

I've been expecting you to to be on that high scores list! Or even win a game in the absence of our other previous winners. Somewhat disappointing turnout from that crowd. biomatter says he's busy, and KY is busy playing Qud! (There was also another player who won via stealth, but said afterward they'd be back for 1.0.)

But hey, if it happens to be an inconvenient time that's okay--we have at least gotten a ton of games in, some nice stats, and sparked a lot of ongoing discussion.

[Kyzrati]

(Starsector discussion split out into a dedicated thread in case anyone would like to continue discussing it. No harm in the free-for-all board!)