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Ideas / Re: Balance Overhaul
« on: October 19, 2020, 12:56:32 PM »
TL;DR: What we, the players, need to do is achieve consensus on a particular issue. If we can do that, Kyzrati has a great track record at fixing said issue. Pimski's post is a great start because it explains "why" and "how" something is not fun - it's not just about something being vaguely broken. The more people we can get to agree that this is a problem, the stronger a signal it will be for Kyzrati.
Community solutions matter a lot less than community consensus on problems because none of us have actual experience with fixing the game. Kyzrati, however, has been doing it full time for the past five or so years!
Pimski's post is a great starting point for identifying the problem. If you agree with the quoted text, say so in this thread! If you don't agree, also say so in the thread, so we can find what the actual problem is.
I think Pimski is onto something here! I think the summary of the problem is on point, and there is nothing here I diagree with. For me, the most fun way of playing Cogmind is by dealing with problems as they come. I don't really like planning out my entire run in advance, I want my games to surprise me! Some of my most fun runs happened when I was in a position to be greedy and do something stupid. When it pays off, it feels great! And even when it doesn't, I know I was getting greedy and I still had a fun time doing it.
However, when I was playing fab builds, it was more about avoiding doing anything risky so that I can fab what I need. That, and staring at spreadsheets. Granted, we have better spreadsheets these days, but I'd rather be actually playing the game!
Pimski's cartridge idea is definitely interesting, and it solves some problems, but it introduces quite a few more. If cartridges are items, then the schematic rewards of DM and Zh need to be redesigned, and inventory management becomes even more painful. I have touched on the latter point in my previous post.
If they're not items, but something intrinsic to Cogmind like RIF abilities or the currently known schematics, the UI may get more complicated. As a returning player, I'm actually having trouble grok everything the UI is trying to tell me, and it is already hard enough to find out how to do something if it's not all that common (such as opening the RIF upgrades window - I play almost exclusively in keyboard mode, so the button wasn't even there for me). This would be even harder for new players, of course.
However, I think it would make the gameplay quite interesting: finding a cartridge is now an opportunity to fix something about your build, or just to get greedy and prepare for endgame.
My advice to Kyzrati is to listen to us, but only a little bit. The community used to complain about bot hacking being either broken or boring, and about there not being much of a reason to go into garrison unless you were trying to break the game *cough* Pimski *cough*. The community did not come up with RIF, which I believe addressed all of those problems, and created an entirely new style of gameplay that's actually quite a lot of fun.
Then, the community complained about RIF not scaling into the endgame, so Kyzrati added RIF upgrades, which at the very least are very fun, and they add a healthy amount of variety to RIF runs. They also encourage greed, which is very fun. I don't know if RIF is viable in endgame, but the RIF upgrade system are a very fun change that the community couldn't have come up with.
Finally, mines were boring and new players seemed to get stuck in mats, so the Exiles were added, which I believe are loved by old and new players alike. The exiles in particular, and all of their items, are not something that can just be designed by the community.
Community solutions matter a lot less than community consensus on problems because none of us have actual experience with fixing the game. Kyzrati, however, has been doing it full time for the past five or so years!
Pimski's post is a great starting point for identifying the problem. If you agree with the quoted text, say so in this thread! If you don't agree, also say so in the thread, so we can find what the actual problem is.
...
1. Hacking-focused builds can fabricate an entire extended build. This method feels somewhat illegitimate, as it is considerably easier to execute than most other strategies for assembling extended-viable builds. Because of this discrepancy with other strateges, on a lot of the faster build archetypes preparing for extended through fabbing feels rather mandatory. Especially on such builds, the strength of lategame fabbing serves to invalidate scavenger-style gameplay to some extent. This is unfortunate for the people who enjoy such gameplay more.
2. There is no compromise-option; either you are fully equipped to fab, or you can hardly fab at all. If you have enough hackware to fab semi-reliably, the only real limit in the number of items you can fab is the fabricator quarantine. Hackware builds can consistently fab enough in this allotted time to get together a complete build. Scavenger-style builds that run no or little hackware can rarely even fabricate a single item. Destroying hubs is somewhat of a remedy against this, but arguably the contrast between these two extremes is still too stark.
3. Fabbing strategies disincentivize risk-reward options to some extent. Scavenger-style builds are often incentivized to take on branches and fight dangerous out-of-depth enemies for rewards. Fabbing builds don't need to rely on such rewards; they only need hackware, and their extended succes is already pretty much guaranteed. Even if branch rewards can be useful for them as well, there is never a reason to feel forced to take a large risk.
4. Fabbing builds overlap with machine hacking builds. This is a bit overly convenient, as machine hacking is one of the most consistent ways to make 0b10 floors easier in the midgame. This ease of blazing through the midgame, combined with their strong lategame, makes fabbing strategies far too consistent and trivial.
5. Setting up a fabbing-centric build is too straightforward. Fabbing builds require little to no resource-management. Their game-plan consists of a very small number of uncomplicated steps. Get hackware; hack for schematics; fabricate your build; equip the parts and win. This again leads to a lack of meaningful and interesting decisions when playing fabbing builds. (Not because of the lack of risk, which is already covered in 3., but rather because of the lack of meaningful resource management and adaptivity.)
...
I think Pimski is onto something here! I think the summary of the problem is on point, and there is nothing here I diagree with. For me, the most fun way of playing Cogmind is by dealing with problems as they come. I don't really like planning out my entire run in advance, I want my games to surprise me! Some of my most fun runs happened when I was in a position to be greedy and do something stupid. When it pays off, it feels great! And even when it doesn't, I know I was getting greedy and I still had a fun time doing it.
However, when I was playing fab builds, it was more about avoiding doing anything risky so that I can fab what I need. That, and staring at spreadsheets. Granted, we have better spreadsheets these days, but I'd rather be actually playing the game!
Pimski's cartridge idea is definitely interesting, and it solves some problems, but it introduces quite a few more. If cartridges are items, then the schematic rewards of DM and Zh need to be redesigned, and inventory management becomes even more painful. I have touched on the latter point in my previous post.
If they're not items, but something intrinsic to Cogmind like RIF abilities or the currently known schematics, the UI may get more complicated. As a returning player, I'm actually having trouble grok everything the UI is trying to tell me, and it is already hard enough to find out how to do something if it's not all that common (such as opening the RIF upgrades window - I play almost exclusively in keyboard mode, so the button wasn't even there for me). This would be even harder for new players, of course.
However, I think it would make the gameplay quite interesting: finding a cartridge is now an opportunity to fix something about your build, or just to get greedy and prepare for endgame.
My advice to Kyzrati is to listen to us, but only a little bit. The community used to complain about bot hacking being either broken or boring, and about there not being much of a reason to go into garrison unless you were trying to break the game *cough* Pimski *cough*. The community did not come up with RIF, which I believe addressed all of those problems, and created an entirely new style of gameplay that's actually quite a lot of fun.
Then, the community complained about RIF not scaling into the endgame, so Kyzrati added RIF upgrades, which at the very least are very fun, and they add a healthy amount of variety to RIF runs. They also encourage greed, which is very fun. I don't know if RIF is viable in endgame, but the RIF upgrade system are a very fun change that the community couldn't have come up with.
Finally, mines were boring and new players seemed to get stuck in mats, so the Exiles were added, which I believe are loved by old and new players alike. The exiles in particular, and all of their items, are not something that can just be designed by the community.
2
Ideas / Re: Balance Overhaul
« on: October 15, 2020, 02:46:51 PM »
While I don't have the extended endgame experience that the other commenters are, I'm sure Kyzrati wants to make the game as fun as possible for people like me too 
Right now, I feel like going overweight on treads & legs in order to haul more storage is a no brainer. I think part of what makes the storage meta work is the fact that being 0x1 overweight essentially doubles the amount of stuff you can carry (100% increase) without much penalty at all. Going 0x2 overweight, by comparison, is only a 50% increase and that feels like much more of a decision on treads & legs.
How would you guys feel about the overweight penalty kicking in sooner? For the sake of argument, let's make it come in effect twice as quickly: for a 40-support build, the 0x1 penalty kicks in between 41 and 60 equipped mass, 0x2 between 61 and 80, and so on. If you keep the support penalty the same, this is a big nerf to going overweight in general, and it also makes being overweight more granular. This would also be a big (unintentional) nerf to wheels, but that can mostly be compensated for by halving the support penalty for wheels.
If more granularity is desirable (Which is probably necessary for endgame) you could make the overweight penalty kick in four times more quickly (0x1 between 61 and 70, 0x2 between 71 and 80 and so on) and rebalance the support penalty across the board.
As a general aside, I think it's important to also think about why something needs to be balanced. I think it's okay for strong items to exist! They make the game fun! What makes the game less fun is items and interactions that are so strong, that they make other parts of the game feel pointless by comparison. Utilities in Materials come to mind - storage is so good, and lots of other things are so bad, that stacking up on storage feels like a no-brainer.
Right now, I feel like going overweight on treads & legs in order to haul more storage is a no brainer. I think part of what makes the storage meta work is the fact that being 0x1 overweight essentially doubles the amount of stuff you can carry (100% increase) without much penalty at all. Going 0x2 overweight, by comparison, is only a 50% increase and that feels like much more of a decision on treads & legs.
How would you guys feel about the overweight penalty kicking in sooner? For the sake of argument, let's make it come in effect twice as quickly: for a 40-support build, the 0x1 penalty kicks in between 41 and 60 equipped mass, 0x2 between 61 and 80, and so on. If you keep the support penalty the same, this is a big nerf to going overweight in general, and it also makes being overweight more granular. This would also be a big (unintentional) nerf to wheels, but that can mostly be compensated for by halving the support penalty for wheels.
If more granularity is desirable (Which is probably necessary for endgame) you could make the overweight penalty kick in four times more quickly (0x1 between 61 and 70, 0x2 between 71 and 80 and so on) and rebalance the support penalty across the board.
As a general aside, I think it's important to also think about why something needs to be balanced. I think it's okay for strong items to exist! They make the game fun! What makes the game less fun is items and interactions that are so strong, that they make other parts of the game feel pointless by comparison. Utilities in Materials come to mind - storage is so good, and lots of other things are so bad, that stacking up on storage feels like a no-brainer.
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