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Why don't we explore the other direction: making energy/matter storage inventory type items (instead of utilities), so they increase your energy/matter capacity as long as they are in your inventory. This is pretty much how people are using them currently, but without that weird "drop it on the ground" part.

I like that. It doesn't actually change much, just makes it less tedious and prone to silly mistakes. ("oh whoops there already was an item underneath me").

[...] that's how Cogmind is designed--every run is winnable, though not necessarily in the way you planned.

That's where the key lies: do you want a game that allows you to play the same stable build throughout? OR one that requires you to adapt, sometimes significantly, to solve problems? A strong focus on adapting is central to Cogmind's vision. Regardless of how experienced you are, some degree of forced adaptation is the experience.

If planning is not to be the core tenent of gameplay, then what is, exactly? I struggle to see the fun in a world where planning has minimal value. What's the takeaway here? Nihilism?

I can win (almost) every run. But there is a point in some runs where the fun stops entirely, through no fault of my own. It's not like Getting Over It which is technically 100% skill-based. Cogmind literally throws a die at me and says "look at all your pathetic planning. worthless. go back to square one, for no other reason than because I say so." What game is made better by continuous, spontaneous, hostile entropy invalidating your every decision but the simplest, safest ones? It reduces the design and play space into a tiny speck where any deviation from the base is akin to gambling.

In my last run, a random explosive trap blew off a wall between my stealth build and a squad of swarmers. They proceeded to shoot off all of my parts. Where's the fun in here? Who enjoys a random punch in the face every now and then?

[Input]

I've long had this feeling about Cogmind that I'm finally starting to place accurately, due to the recent explosion of study of randomness, expressed in GDC talks and various prominent game design YouTube channels. They call it "input vs output randomness", and the feeling I have is of extreme frustration.

You see, Cogmind is brilliant fun to me always up until the point where some specific part gets destroyed by randomness. It is impossible to carry spares for everything, and multiple slots are required to work together to bring a complex build to life; therefore, the build rapidly starts falling apart.

Of course, I could keep going. If I were playing professionally, in a tournament, streaking, or for some other such reason obliged to stick with it, I probably would. But I'm not. I'm playing Cogmind for fun. When the fun ends, I stop playing. Make sense to me.

This causes a psychological regression into the safest builds. I start ignoring the cool, interesting parts because I know they'll last for all of one floor before some completely uncontrollable source of randomness kills it. It's the random critical hit against the player. Almost universally hated by players in all games present.

The introduction of RPGLIKE mode highlights the issue - it's much more fun! I'm actually excited to find unique, rare parts because I know I can design my build around them! But this experimental mode also makes other changes, like XP allocation, that aren't very Cogmind.

The whole thing is neatly outlined with input vs output randomness. Input randomness is a source of much fun and variety. It's the principal component of joyful randomness in roguelikes - level layout, loot caches, branch exits and surprise encounters. Output randomness is the stuff of nightmares. It's the thing that says "anything you do could backfire catastrophically at any moment".

Worst of all it's completely unnecessary. All instances of output randomness can easily be translated to input randomness. Let's consider Cogmind's core niche: PART DESTRUCTION. At the very heart of this concept is simply the notion that everything is consumable. This makes the game about resource management. But as it currently stands, the consumable nature of everything comes from output randomness - things last indefinitely until randomly they don't. Contrast this to input-random consumables, where it is upon the player to choose whether to use and thus consume an item or save it for later. In essence, part integrity would degrade on use. Every step you move, propulsion integrity -1. Every volley you fire, weapon integrity -1. Every terrain you scan, integrity -1. And so on.

Another example, terminal hacks. Each hack has a number next to it. The higher the number, the more powerful and costly the hack. When player selects a hack, randomly disable other available hacks up to the number, proportional to each hack's number. So a high hack will disable many others, while a low one is likely to only disable one. This creates the strategic trade-off of whether to pick many small advantages or one big one. If the number exceeds the sum of other hacks present, trigger negative feedback. Hacking gear reduces these numbers. Numbers above a certain threshold might be inaccessible altogether, requiring hacking gear.

Maybe this isn't the game you set out to make. Maybe it's too gargantuan of a change to undertake. But it's the game I wish I could play. RPGLIKE comes closest, but I don't like the XP mechanics.

When you evolve, you can't see your inventory. This is problematic, because often my choise of evolutions is directly influenced by what spare parts I've got.

I've gotten into the habit of deciding my evolutions before hitting the stairs, while I can still see my parts.

The evolution screen is pretty, but it should be UI first. Display the inventory?

Are you planning on actually building stealthrogue?

I am

Oh yea, I used this for gamedev technical sketching.

I bump a terminal. The menu opens. a-y quick selects a direct hack. I press z to begin manual hacking.

Why can't I type "trojan track"? Okay, if I've used it before, I can type "tro" and tab+arrows to autocomplete. But the contents of that autocomplete menu change based on what hacks you've already applied, so the arrowing necessary is not constant, but variable. It takes disproportionate time and effort to make sure I'm selecting the right menu item, over simply typing "trojan track" and be done with it!

If I haven't used it before, and have a non-US keyboard, I'm now pressing random combinations of keys, shift, alt gr, whatever, trying to find the one button that summons the '(' necessary. Absolutely awful user experience.

Why can't I type "youarepotato" to open that one door? Why must it be "\\youarepotato"? All the manual hacks begin with a letter. Why can't this one?

I've offered the option on Patreon to vote for full mouse interface for manual hacking to avoid the keyboard entirely, because mouse support is the real solution for this, but it doesn't have many votes compared to other features, so I'm not sure that'll ever happen. It's quite a lot of work for what seems to be a small number of players.

While this is not a refuttal of your process, mind you that lacking accessibility may cause the playerbase to remain small.

Cogmind assumes a US keyboard layout. Hacks use characters like \\ and (). Whenever I need to enter such hacks manually (like the door to recycling), I have to hunt blindly for the special characters on my (non-US) keyboard.

I know it adds computery flavor to have these characters, but from a useability standpoint I wish I could type hacks using just letters and spaces.

Some of this may be partially invalidated by autocomplete and upcoming improvements already, but do consider it.

There is no guaranteed grenade launcher, by the way.

Oh? Huh, interesting. I had formed an intuition that this was the case.

I'll add something in this regard, although I'm not sure just how much this will help since you'd still have to find them, and the chances of hitting a patrol before that point are relatively high.

Great! I very much appreciate that

Pacifist runs live and die by their sensors. Once spotted in the early game, especially by swarmers, your only remaining option is to look for the nearest exit while getting shot at.

Therefore, I ask that a guaranteed sensors (and maybe interpreter?) generate on the lowest levels.

Consider that a combat run can very reliably acquire sensors anyway by destroying a scout; something only pacifists can't do. This addition wouldn't really impact most players' runs; basic sensors are common.

It would, however, make a lot of pacifist runs more reliably viable in the early game.
As it currently stands, some pacifist runs just die randomly because you turn a corner into a squad. Since this happens in the early game, it's not a humongous time loss, but it'd be... polite, to grant us this crutch.

Consider all the other guaranteed items already present in the early game -- starting parts, storage units, grenade launcher

This addition would slightly elevate Cogmind as a stealth roguelike. There are not many stealth roguelikes out there. It would raise Cogmind's status in that particular niche.

Actually I think mass should ideally be removed from unidentified items, because mass ID is stupid, no?

Wonder what other people think...

Yes, mass ID is spoilery and should be removed.

I RIF hacked a worker on hub near a network hub to deconstruct machine. It went towards the network hub, and I ran out of the room. A few turns later, Cogmind crashed. (Beta 9.2)

Reloading the attached save exhibits the issue. Hacking the worker to deconstruct machine crashes when it reaches the hub.

****************************************************
*** A Programm Fault occured:
*** Error code C0000005: ACCESS VIOLATION
****************************************************
***   Address: 00459B6D
***     Flags: 00000000
****************************************************
*** CallStack:
****************************************************

  Fault Occured At $ADDRESS:00459B6D
         with 08 00 00 00

***  0 called from $ADDRESS:0084AEB4
         with 08 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 B8 55 FA 00

***  1 called from $ADDRESS:00840BDD
         with 08 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 B8 55 FA 11

***  2 called from $ADDRESS:0081855E
         with 2C D1 18 00 00 00 00 00 84 72 B0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00

***  3 called from $ADDRESS:00836F36
         with B8 55 FA 11 00 00 00 00 50 D8 83 E4 4C FC 18 00 90 FE 18 00

***  4 called from $ADDRESS:0052AC0E
         with FC D8 83 E4 80 AC 85 00 FC A2 0E 09 F8 A2 0E 09 4C F2 18 00

***  5 called from $ADDRESS:0057EB97
         with 58 D9 83 E4 18 A3 0E 09 3E 00 00 00 D8 F2 18 00 54 8F 84 00

***  6 called from $ADDRESS:00598151
         with 1C F3 18 00 B5 D2 5F 00 68 7B B0 00 64 00 00 00

***  7 called from $ADDRESS:005986DD
         with A8 DD 83 E4 4C FC 18 00 48 A3 8F 00 FF FF FF FF 84 F3 18 00

***  8 called from $ADDRESS:0062002D
         with 6C D6 83 E4 4C FC 18 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 01 10 00 00 00

***  9 called from $ADDRESS:006EBC84
         with 48 A6 59 02 B8 E5 55 02 01 00 00 00

*** 10 called from $ADDRESS:00426C30
         with B8 E5 55 02

*** 11 called from $ADDRESS:007F6E35
         with B8 E5 55 02 B0 EA 54 02 00 00 00 00

*** 12 called from $ADDRESS:00426C30
         with B0 EA 54 02

*** 13 called from $ADDRESS:00429D20
         with F8 79 B0 00

*** 14 called from $ADDRESS:00422D0C
         with 05 00 00 00 74 FC 18 00 F8 79 B0 00 74 FC 18 00 00 00 00 00

*** 15 called from $ADDRESS:00422EC4
         with B2 FE 18 00 F0 DF 52 02 05 00 00 00 F8 61 3D 00 60 02 3D 00

*** 16 called from $ADDRESS:008144B0
         with 02 00 00 00 90 FE 18 00 00 00 40 00 43 4F 47 4D 49 4E 44 00

*** 17 called from $ADDRESS:008D8D35
         with 02 00 00 00 90 FE 18 00 A1 FE 18 00 BF FE 18 00 00 00 00 00

*** 18 called from $ADDRESS:008D8DEE
         with 00 00 40 00 00 00 00 00 07 1C BA 00 01 00 00 00 D0 D5 83 E4

*** 19 called from $ADDRESS:008D7FF5
         with 00 E0 FD 7F E0 7B 8C 75 3E 57 14 C2

*** 20 called from $ADDRESS:758C7C04
         with 00 E0 FD 7F 6A DB B7 E9 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 E0 FD 7F

*** 21 called from $ADDRESS:7782AD8F
         with FF FF FF FF D0 00 81 77

*** 22 called from $ADDRESS:7782AD5A
         with

*** 23 called from $ADDRESS:00000000
************************************************************

[...] pacing can vary greatly [...] from situation to situation.

Well, now you have the situation analysis code, which can crossfade between tracks of different intensities corresponding to the severity of the situation.

Great, thanks for checking!

Hm, I do concur the frequency seems suspect. Could be chance, but I've also observed the infestation occurring every single run I've entered the mines on Beta 9.

It's especially annoying as pacifist, since I can't launch grenades

You're making something awesome, and listen politely to your community. I think I'll become a patreon. Also, thinking about making Cogmind videos on YouTube, because it's something I'd wanna watch that doesn't really exist yet!

Ah, sorry about the RIF worker dismantling, thanks for reporting that, it's a new bug

Oh! Not a waste at all then

Does hacking a worker to disassemble an explosive machine which blows up bots count as kills against pacifism?

Nope.

Ok, so, started a pacifist run, got RIF. Hacked 3 workers to disassemble explosive machines, then dumped stats. It reads 3 robots destroyed, and pacifist bonus 1787.

Then I ascended to the next factory floor, RIF hacked 2 more workers to disassemble explosive machines, then dumped stats again. Now it reads 5 robots destroyed, and pacifist bonus is still 1787. Shouldn't it increase going up a floor?

The 5 workers RIF hacked to disassemble machines, then dying in the explosion definitely seem to be counted as kills, and against pacifism, contrary to what you have claimed.

Even worse, value destroyed is abysmally tiny score. Like 1 point per machine exploded. Another two hours wasted.......

I wish there was an advanced option that printed "First kill" when it happens. Then I'd at least know immediately when the run is over instead of pointlessly wasting time continuing it. After all, I could in theory dump stats every turn to check. Which would be tedious, of course, so I won't.

I wanted to make the detonation non-traceable, but in the end couldn't because it would be far too effective in that case. That said, it's kinda interesting that it doesn't seem to really get used much anyway--you're the only one I can recall actually installing it seriously other than myself and others who might just be fooling around, but normally don't even consider it's existence

I figured I'd rack up property destruction score with it
Next strat, hit that -8 early garrison and get some NC couplers to blow shit up!

Pacifist score maximizing is certainly an interesting experience.
Thanks for taking the time to reply, appreciate it!

I wasn't sure whether I wanted this to happen or not, since it counts as a pretty indirect form of attack akin to traps. I'm pretty sure at the time I was afraid it would be too effective and powerful to not count, but considering it's a force hack and Fabricators are limited, I think for Beta 9 I'll change that so that the kills no longer raise alert (or therefore count against pacifism).

Today playing beta 9 I learned that trojan detonate not only raises alert, but any bots destroyed in the machine explosions count as kills against pacifism. Another run ruined...

Did you change the fabricator disruption for beta 9?
Do RIF hacks that make bots explode count as kills against pacifism?
Does hacking a worker to disassemble an explosive machine which blows up bots count as kills against pacifism?

I can't play a game not knowing its rules, damnit. And I won't waste all these hours discovering them by trial and error. List what kills pacifist, please.

It occurs sometimes. Not always.

To explain the various branches would be to rob you of the joy of discovery and exploration. I implore you to adventure to new territory blind. It's a rare thing in video games, to actually explore something new and alien. Cogmind certainly delivers in this aspect. Take advantage of it. Explore!

Why don't you pacifist other Roguelikes? Surely it's harder but it's doable

Which roguelikes do you recommend?

It's possible to get within top 20 of the worldwide high scores without killing anyone. I only failed to do so because I accidentally killed 3 enemies out of sheer stupidity.

Pacifist is the only way for me to play. I'm fatigued of violence in games, and Cogmind can be won peacefully.

Taking a break from Cogmind right now, I'll try again sometime.

[trackers are instant death.]

[...] I can sympathize with the frustration.

...Thank you. Simple sympathy makes me feel much better. Sorry all if I came off abrasive in my tone there.

I really respect your challenge that goes to all branches as far as possible with pacifist run. But that's like setting all difficulty options to 'very hard' at once, so it sounds like a logical consequence to be hard to guess which option made your run extremely difficult.

Hey, cool . Yeah, I like poking my pacifist head into places I know nothing about. Usually though, there's at least something I can do to waggle myself out of a sticky situation. That's why I was so pissed off here, trackers are instant death. They appear out of nowhere and disable propulsion before I even have a chance to act. Lame.

you've stumbled into something much... different with that place. [...] It's incredibly important lore-wise, if you can decrypt the terminal there. But it's also intentionally among the most challenging things you can do in the game.

Ah, ok. Yeah I've been gathering there's still stuff to uncover. From what I can tell though, it probably requires combat to get through. And well... you know me. I'm all about peace, love and understanding.

Those encrypted terminals tho. Mmm.

That said, there are also

Spoiler

safe ways to sneak in

[close]

I'm aware. Been there, done that. Always for the 1000 points

Note if you're looking to explore the full extent of Cogmind's world without putting too much time into it, I highly recommend switching to the easiest difficulty, because on the regular difficulty you'll be looking at putting in many hundreds of hours before you see everything!

Honestly? ...I like the challenge. Roguelikes are roguelikes because you risk losing everything. Exploring new branches for the first time was such a rush of excitement! I pondered my every step for several minutes, trying to figure my way out of some really hairy situations! Loved every moment of it.

THAT's why I was so mad here -- never given the chance to think, now what? Trackers suddenly pop in, disable propulsion, what's a stealth flight gonna do? I'll tell you what; once I muster the courage, I'm loading the game and popping that teleport. If I make it, it'll make a helluva war story

Regardless, in the end there are definitely going to always be parts of the game which are off limits for certain builds and strategies--this is intentional (well, some people flaunt their skills and overcome these limitations, but they are few and far in between ).

That's cool. I'll die trying.



And I want you to know that Cogmind is still one of the best games I've ever played -- and I've played a lot! Cogmind is the kind of game I look forward to introducing to my future children.

Interesting... I present to you two failures:

The first one is a failure in scripting and AI to generate sensible story. In short, you took the quick and lazy way scripting this encounter; a global, unavoidable, dumb trigger that assumes everything and leaves no room for any creativity.

Here's the thing: I executed the perfect heist. Alert level was low security. I came in with three ally assassins as a decoy, and escaped unseen. From 0b10's perspective, the Derelicts broke in, security fought them out and no-one got caught.

The proper way to script this would be to send a special investigation to respond to the break-in, and tie punishment to getting caught by it. Investigators could patrol the next Research floor looking for the stolen items. And I know you can do this! Recycling already has those probes!

The second failure is of communication. It is absolutely not clear that this event is in response to that action. You must make it clear that this is the consequence of that. Like with the Exiles/thieves in your latest stream -- when the master thief finds you, he outright tells you he's there because you stole items.

...

I'm a bit bewildered and disappointed by the whole ordeal. I mean there's only a few items in there anyway, and visiting is only worth 1000 points. That's.. why I went there. For the points. Such a paltry amount for so many hours wasted now.

I really like Cogmind, I really do. But when it does shit like this, that I can only discover by trial and error, and wastes hours of my time, that I just... have to choose other stuff over it. Life's too short to waste it like this.